It's true the NCAA should be all over this. The players who want out should be allowed to get out.
Warning to all of CFB - Jordan McNair died due to heatstroke
- Thread starter Richard the LIONhearted
- Start date
Considering that (1) most of his players were Edsall recruits who weren't recruited by any other schools, and (2) UMD was on its' 3/4/5 QB is that score a surprise? Would, say, O' Brien have done better against JF & PSU?
Your first sentence and the first half of the second seem to be implicitly contradictory.
Oh, no, this is all the dead player's fault. Did he call the police? Why not? How are we supposed to believe he was treated badly without proof that he complained?
He was really out of shape. Why didn't he stay in shape?
He was really out of shape. Why didn't he stay in shape?
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If all this other stuff is true, you have a coach (and staff?) putting the mental and physical health and safety of student-athletes at risk. That's definitely within the NCAA's job jar
They bought their tickets, they knew the risk. I say ... let the plane crash
There are legal requirements to provide standard of care to athletes. Even high schools know this and have qualified training staff available and with the authority to intercede and provide care because the medical evaluation supersedes a coach's evaluation.
University of Maryland was doing something illegal if they did not have qualified trainers present or if their authority to care for the athletes was denied. But this all speaks to culture and doing things the wrong way and cutting corners and not following rules. Durbin learned these behaviors from somewhere. He was brought up obviously to believe that this was acceptable handling of a program and its young men. That is what needs to be rooted out or else it or something else serious will happen again.
I want to hear from McNair's mother. It is entirely possible that she knew all about this, having never attended a practice, and believes he was not abused by his coaches.
For what it's worth the WaPo followed the ESPN story and got players to basically confirm it.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/spor...6e177f3081c_story.html?utm_term=.37bee6c848f9
This is a program that basically uses humiliation and hazing as part of their training.
And it is clearly a program that doesn't have enough training and medical expertise to know the limits of how far human bodies can be pushed, or a young man wouldn't be dead.
It's one thing to have a player suddenly die of an undiagnosed heart condition (and to PSU's credit that it's doing thorough enough physicals to identify such conditions).
But it's another thing entirely to have a healthy player die because Maryland's coaching and training staff is so clueless they don't realize a player right in front of them is dying of heat stroke.
You put together the abuse that is rampant in the program, and the fact that a player was killed during a workout supervised by the head coach and head trainer, and Maryland had better clean house.
I think the most unbelievable part of this story is still the fact that when this player was obviously overheated and suffering neurological symptoms, it didn't occur to anyone on the Maryland staff to get him cooled down. They were totally focused on keeping him up on his feet so they could keep yelling at him and humiliating him in front of the other players. In other words, it wasn't an accident, it was the way Durkin runs the program that killed this kid.
The other thing that made me angry with the ESPN report was that Maryland -- even AFTER they have a dead player -- is trying to intimidate players as it conducts its "independent" reviews by preventing them from talking with the investigators anonymously. It's a very delicate thing to get players to talk honestly about what their coaches do, and it looks to me like Maryland is not interested in getting those honest answers. It'd be one thing but they have a dead football player. You have a dead player, it's not the time for a whitewash investigation.
I think back to last year's game against PSU and the weird way Durkin kept smiling when his team was losing 66-3. It just seemed off. Maybe there is something missing with that guy -- i.e. an emotional connection to his players.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/spor...6e177f3081c_story.html?utm_term=.37bee6c848f9
This is a program that basically uses humiliation and hazing as part of their training.
And it is clearly a program that doesn't have enough training and medical expertise to know the limits of how far human bodies can be pushed, or a young man wouldn't be dead.
It's one thing to have a player suddenly die of an undiagnosed heart condition (and to PSU's credit that it's doing thorough enough physicals to identify such conditions).
But it's another thing entirely to have a healthy player die because Maryland's coaching and training staff is so clueless they don't realize a player right in front of them is dying of heat stroke.
You put together the abuse that is rampant in the program, and the fact that a player was killed during a workout supervised by the head coach and head trainer, and Maryland had better clean house.
I think the most unbelievable part of this story is still the fact that when this player was obviously overheated and suffering neurological symptoms, it didn't occur to anyone on the Maryland staff to get him cooled down. They were totally focused on keeping him up on his feet so they could keep yelling at him and humiliating him in front of the other players. In other words, it wasn't an accident, it was the way Durkin runs the program that killed this kid.
The other thing that made me angry with the ESPN report was that Maryland -- even AFTER they have a dead player -- is trying to intimidate players as it conducts its "independent" reviews by preventing them from talking with the investigators anonymously. It's a very delicate thing to get players to talk honestly about what their coaches do, and it looks to me like Maryland is not interested in getting those honest answers. It'd be one thing but they have a dead football player. You have a dead player, it's not the time for a whitewash investigation.
I think back to last year's game against PSU and the weird way Durkin kept smiling when his team was losing 66-3. It just seemed off. Maybe there is something missing with that guy -- i.e. an emotional connection to his players.
There is definitely enough medical knowledge at every D1 program. It's he trainers, team docs, etc.The real question is where the trainers present? If not, why? If so, how did they react and were their recommendations permitted or denied? That profession requires certification and legally requires them to act and provide a standard of care. Were they not present or not allowed to act? That is what needs to be asked.
Yes, that constant smiling by Durkin while his team was being destroyed was beyond odd. Really wonder if it's a sign of something much deeper.
As a coach, I would never consider those guys great coaches. When a coach needs to rely solely, or even primarily, upon intimidation and threats it betrays a lack of character. The primary mission of a coach is to build character. A coach who ignores character in favor of “winning” barely deserves the title.
Isn't Urb looking for a replacement for Zac?
Agree. All this indicates Durkin is in over his head. This is his first HC job and will be his last i suspect.
I've seen the Washington Post piece; what sort of coverage is this getting on DC and Baltimore area local news?
This neglect looks like a fireable offense to me.
did you even bother to read the article?
The May 29 workout, which was organized and led by the Maryland strength and conditioning staff, began at 4:15 p.m. ET.
The strength and conditioning staff, led by Rick Court, supervised the workout. Certified athletic trainers were present.
He said trainers noticed that McNair was having some trouble recovering and began "providing necessary care."
I think I read in one article that one of the trainer’s advice that was present was to “drag his ass off the field’
Too often the training staff is beholden to or an extension of the coaching staff. That can be mitigated by having a team doctor who is independently appointed. Of course, the team doctor has to be present at all workouts
Putting aside the very real mess at UMd for a moment... how does one get players ready for hot, muggy days in September? On June 13th at College Park the temperature was about 80-82, the humidity 67%, a 7 mph breeze. If you view the heat index, that puts the "feel" in the low 80s. According to same index, those exercising should proceed with extreme caution (the next phase is "danger").
It can be argued that UMd's schedule will not take them into places in the deep south where things are really bad... but forget that for a moment. What about teams that have games in Miami in September? How are they supposed to get players ready for that extreme change, if not by working players under stressful heat conditions? [Or northern recruits who are suddenly thrust into the deep south swamp heat]
I'm not making an argument for Durkin (far from it)... just curious how you get players ready to play in extreme weather if not by pressing the accelerator? How do you monitor all your players every step of the way to keep them properly hydrated, make sure they're safe?
https://www.google.com/search?q=heat+index&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1
It can be argued that UMd's schedule will not take them into places in the deep south where things are really bad... but forget that for a moment. What about teams that have games in Miami in September? How are they supposed to get players ready for that extreme change, if not by working players under stressful heat conditions? [Or northern recruits who are suddenly thrust into the deep south swamp heat]
I'm not making an argument for Durkin (far from it)... just curious how you get players ready to play in extreme weather if not by pressing the accelerator? How do you monitor all your players every step of the way to keep them properly hydrated, make sure they're safe?
https://www.google.com/search?q=heat+index&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1
yes I read that too, but that wasn't the point of my response,
the poster was asking questions like why wasnt a trainer there? Well they had them there, because the NCAA allows them to be there.
that said all of these workouts are voluntary, but rule, and by rule the coaching staff can't be there, and they can't take attendance or film the practice.
so by rule the HC wasn't there or conducted this workout.
what happens behind closed doors is left to debate.
In games, offensive linemen are not running 110 yard sprints, let alone doing them repetitively.
Killing someone is clearly not a way to prepare him for a game.
Let's get real. These workouts were not voluntary and the coaches knew what was planned even if they weren't there. Were this matter brought to court, I somehow doubt that NCAA rules alone would provide an adequate defense for a head coach.
Yours is a fair question that I don't know the answer to. But there is a safe way to do it because teams do it all the time. We played in Alabama in September in 2010. In Miami in September in 1999. Our teams were prepared to play so there's a safe way to do it. Obviously, there are unsafe ways to do it as well.
We were fortunate in the Miami game that it rained (increased humidity but kept the sun out of it for the most part). But yes, I know it can be done... and nobody has to die. What has reportedly been going on at UMd seems to have gone to the extreme... I'm guessing as things progress we'll learn more about what other programs do insofar as conditioning. Sad all the way around.
I keep hearing that running 110 yard "sprints" (we did the same back in my day lol but recall them as "striders".. not all out sprints) is not typical (esp for linemen). I also saw this particular comment from stewmonkey at SBNation... "Former football players may read these reports and think to themselves ‘well, yeah, sounds like a typical summer conditioning day.’ "
So again, i'm curious how out of the norm this is... the abuse the players endured is one aspect that cannot be tolerated, but were the conditioning drills that far removed from the norm? Never played college FB so I'm interested in how far from the mark this regimen was...
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No doubt there are any number of ways to train/prepare players. As part of the process, it is incumbent on the training staff to closely monitor the condition of all players, just as it is during games.
We have specific rules for camp/practice for HS football here in MD. No back to back 2 a days, days with shells only, practice times based off of heat index, mandatory water, etc. Summer weigh room and conditioning follow them too. Kids that dont come to the summer workouts have a 7 day heat acclimation period the first week of practice. If HS programs have conditioning programs that are Dr/trainer approved at the state level, all colleges have similar ones. It just seems Durkins staff didnt follow rules.
Agree that it is within their "job jar". From your original post: "Also would want Delany and the NCAA to get involved to protect these kids. Really, what does it take for the NCAA and Delany to get involved?" You made a specious (kneejerk?) generality and I asked for some particulars. You have not provided any.
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