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B1G Tournament -- Session 4 Thread – FINALS + Medal Round!!

It looks like we have five sure-thing high AAs: RBY, Levi, Carter, Brooks and Kerk. Expect at least three champs from that group.

We have two more probable AAs: Beau and Max.

I could see SVN finishing 6-8. And even a R12 finish could mean decent points with his bonus potential.

Facundo? Anywhere from low AA to R16.

Should be plenty to win nationals.
 
donboy6499 said:
4 officiating mentions, all hurt Iowa or helped PSU, shocker.
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Do you disagree with any of them? I was at a family function with my girlfriend, so my focus was hit or miss. Iowa has been the beneficiary of good calls too.

Some other that I saw: I thought O'Toole had 2 on the edge in the first on Carr and Carr's 2 in the 3rd was also marginal. The stall call to send it to OT was awful.

Saw an awful call in a PAC 12 match on twitter. Clear takedown in a crab ride on OT. Ref stared at it for 10 seconds and didn't call it.
 
mcpat said:
It looks like we have five sure-thing high AAs: RBY, Levi, Carter, Brooks and Kerk. Expect at least three champs from that group.

We have two more probable AAs: Beau and Max.

I could see SVN finishing 6-8. And even a R12 finish could mean decent points with his bonus potential.

Facundo? Anywhere from low AA to R16.

Should be plenty to win nationals.
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Agree with this. PSU losing would be an all time meltdown imo.
 
Parris and Allred wrestled great matches, those results will be a challenge to reverse. Congratulations to both, they seem like a couple of solid young men.

As far as I can tell, no injuries, always important with NCAAs less than 2 weeks away.

The gap with Iowa should only widen at nationals. No extra matches and it's highly unlikely they get 4 medical forfeits.
 
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PSUWrestlingFanSince2011 said:
Kerk is a dumb wrestler, nothing new. Just being honest.
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The Rock Eye Roll GIF by WWE
 
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js8793 said:
Do you disagree with any of them? I was at a family function with my girlfriend, so my focus was hit or miss. Iowa has been the beneficiary of good calls too.

Some other that I saw: I thought O'Toole had 2 on the edge in the first on Carr and Carr's 2 in the 3rd was also marginal. The stall call to send it to OT was awful.

Saw an awful call in a PAC 12 match on twitter. Clear takedown in a crab ride on OT. Ref stared at it for 10 seconds and didn't call it.
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I disagree with your take on the Haines call. TD in that position requires control past reaction time. Unfortunately for Robb they clearly were OOB a split second after they hit the mat. Just hitting the mat in that situation does not equal a TD.

If you watched the ACC finals there were 2 or 3 situations that were exactly the same. And all called no TD. One in the AOC-Andonian match and 1 or 2 in the 125 final. You may disagree with the spirit of the rule but it is being interpreted correctly with some level of consistency by the referees which is more than you can say about other rules.

Sorry, replied to the wrong post of yours.
 
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js8793 said:
Do you disagree with any of them? I was at a family function with my girlfriend, so my focus was hit or miss. Iowa has been the beneficiary of good calls too.

Some other that I saw: I thought O'Toole had 2 on the edge in the first on Carr and Carr's 2 in the 3rd was also marginal. The stall call to send it to OT was awful.

Saw an awful call in a PAC 12 match on twitter. Clear takedown in a crab ride on OT. Ref stared at it for 10 seconds and didn't call it.
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O'Toole on the edge is a takedown most of the time, agree. Thought it was 2 watching it and still do. Carr's, in real time, did not look like 2. After replay, still could be swayed either way. Didn't see PAC 12s at all, not even sure they happened they are so hidden from the public.

As to the stalls, I have always thought (well, since the RBY Fix fiasco where John Smith begged stall points out of the guy) that stall calls should be more liberally used than not. So none of the stalls bothered me tbh. Problem is it is inconsistent. But let's face it, 3-2 match with a minute left with some of these guys and it might as well be over. Murin stalls at the end of matches up 3-2 but looks active, RBY stalled at the end of his match on bottom, neither got dinged and both should have. I mean, it would take an act of Congress to hit Murin for a stall when he clearly isn't looking to engage in any match he is up 3-2 in after the 3rd period escape.

What would I add that isn't anti-PSU or Pro-Iowa that you missed?

Nagao literally participated in that match the 1st 5 minutes as much as you or I did. If 5 minutes of backing up, non-offensive wrestling is a stall call or 2, no wonder everyone does it.
 
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dicemen99 said:
I disagree with your take on the Haines call. TD in that position requires control past reaction time. Unfortunately for Robb they clearly were OOB a split second after they hit the mat. Just hitting the mat in that situation does not equal a TD.

If you watched the ACC finals there were 2 or 3 situations that were exactly the same. And all called no TD. One in the AOC-Andonian match and 1 or 2 in the 125 final. You may disagree with the spirit of the rule but it is being interpreted correctly with some level of consistency by the referees which is more than you can say about other rules.
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said the same in another post. Rock - on the acc - called it out pretty well
 
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dicemen99 said:
I disagree with your take on the Haines call. TD in that position requires control past reaction time. Unfortunately for Robb they clearly were OOB a split second after they hit the mat. Just hitting the mat in that situation does not equal a TD.

If you watched the ACC finals there were 2 or 3 situations that were exactly the same. And all called no TD. One in the AOC-Andonian match and 1 or 2 in the 125 final. You may disagree with the spirit of the rule but it is being interpreted correctly with some level of consistency by the referees which is more than you can say about other rules.

Sorry, replied to the wrong post of yours.
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Disagree with this. I did think that was how it was usually called, but I've seen it called 2 all year. It's close enough that I don't think it's a travesty. And plus, Haines then has 4 minutes to get on his offense.
 
donboy6499 said:
O'Toole on the edge is a takedown most of the time, agree. Thought it was 2 watching it and still do. Carr's, in real time, did not look like 2. After replay, still could be swayed either way. Didn't see PAC 12s at all, not even sure they happened they are so hidden from the public.

As to the stalls, I have always thought (well, since the RBY Fix fiasco where John Smith begged stall points out of the guy) that stall calls should be more liberally used than not. So none of the stalls bothered me tbh. Problem is it is inconsistent. But let's face it, 3-2 match with a minute left with some of these guys and it might as well be over. Murin stalls at the end of matches up 3-2 but looks active, RBY stalled at the end of his match on bottom, neither got dinged and both should have. I mean, it would take an act of Congress to hit Murin for a stall when he clearly isn't looking to engage in any match he is up 3-2 in after the 3rd period escape.

What would I add that isn't anti-PSU or Pro-Iowa that you missed?

Nagao literally participated in that match the 1st 5 minutes as much as you or I did. If 5 minutes of backing up, non-offensive wrestling is a stall call or 2, no wonder everyone does it.
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I think the ref was out of position in the O'Toole match and didn't see KOT control the far ankle. That's my only explanation.

And I agree on the stall calls. I'm just saying calling Murin a "staller" in an ontological sense is ludicrous. He's not the most talented offensive wrestler, but he holds his ground and attacks. He's out attacked SVN by a wide margin and been in on his legs a bunch. I don't understand the hate for him. Did he stall a little late in the match up by 1? Yes, but basically every wrestler does. If you'll recall, he was the one who attacked and got to a leg at the end of the first match when he was already winning.
 
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It's a stretch to say Murin is a "staller" he normally isn't backing up.
He moves forward but in the past he doesn't shoot. He seems to shoot against SVN
 
For Heavyweights more than any other weight, a barometer for effort, "want to", endurance, "gas tank", is the ability to get out from bottom. Watch Kerk's effort and skill at 1:33:33 and 1:36:00. The latter is the quickest sitout I've seen by a heavyweight, EVER. We have a great heavyweight who lost in overtime to another great heavyweight. Some of you that get your feelings hurt because one of our guy lost a match should at least take a couple days before posting STUPID or dogshit comments. Your feelings don't matter.

 
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js8793 said:
I think the ref was out of position in the O'Toole match and didn't see KOT control the far ankle. That's my only explanation.

And I agree on the stall calls. I'm just saying calling Murin a "staller" in an ontological sense is ludicrous. He's not the most talented offensive wrestler, but he holds his ground and attacks. He's out attacked SVN by a wide margin and been in on his legs a bunch. I don't understand the hate for him. Did he stall a little late in the match up by 1? Yes, but basically every wrestler does. If you'll recall, he was the one who attacked and got to a leg at the end of the first match when he was already winning.
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It's stalling. Just because everyone does it, and some folks do it almost every time they are in that spot, doesn't change that. We are just numb to it is all. SVN doesn't shoot against him, agree. That is stalling too! As an outsider who picked up the sport (the proverbial "Grow the sport" fan), I always wonder why more people don't see that anything to spur more action should be aggressively used. I don't need to see a shot every 10 seconds. But there should be SOME shooting or offensive attempt involved.

I am the very, very last person on Earth to think that Freestyle>Folkstyle. But watching the end of a folkstyle match to a freestyle one is akin to watching a team taking knees vs a team with a 2 point conversion to win.
 
PSUWrestlingFanSince2011 said:
1 takedown then starting down for the 2nd period should not be the match. If it is then he's out of shape. I dont't care if he's a Heavy or not. 1 takedown should not essentially end the match.
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I guess you didn't watch the match. It's not like it is easy to get out. Kerk worked his tail off to get out both times. Most 285s don't get out.

Your logic, all guys wrestling Starocci are out of shape. And that is more than 100lbs less.
 
GogglesPaizano said:
I'll take one true Frosh B1G champ over 2 vets. Super jazzed for Levi. Kerk and Dean need to be much more aggressive in the first period. I don't like their gas tanks late in the match. If you don't shoot you don't win. Overall awesome tourney!!!!
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everyone on the team has to wrestle like Star and Levi!all pressure all day!
 
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these guys stall all day long on PSU refs never call it !WTF you know its bad when Cael says something?was Romero at a track meet,it certainly looked like it?
 
A couple annecdotal observations about Kerk.

Oddly enough it seemed throughout the year Kerk was getting bigger. Every few matches his weight was 1-2 lbs heavier than previous. Even with Cassar when he was undersized he lost a few pounds throughout the season. I am now starting to wonder if this is an indicator of conditioning. Kerk seems gassed late in matches. I hope to see him next year 5-10 lbs lower, I don't see the trade-off as beneficial.

For nationals vs either Parris or Cassi, the 1st period aggressor will win. Parris is one very big, very strong, very solid heavy who gains more confidence reach time out vs Kerk. The match is no longer going to come to Kerk, he needs to have 3-4 totally committed shots in the first period to win. It's pretty clear, he can do it, the question is will he?

A rediculous analogy, but put Nolf or Levi's brain in Kerk's body and he probably majors Parris.
 
js8793 said:
Disagree with this. I did think that was how it was usually called, but I've seen it called 2 all year. It's close enough that I don't think it's a travesty. And plus, Haines then has 4 minutes to get on his offense.
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Agree to disagree then. I have seen it called 2 at times - that's kind of a natural reaction - but I also think when it's called incorrectly it is more often reversed than not if reviewed. And, again, I'll point to at least two instances yesterday in the ACC finals where it was called the exact same way. At 157 the officials self-reviewed and reversed the call, at 125 the opposing coaches didn't even throw the brick (either time).

Oh well, moving on to whoever called Murin a staller - c'mon. He's a tough matchup for SVN - strong enough to not break position against him, very good at taking advantage of SVN opening up to try to create a flurry, and tough enough on top to take advantage of a position that SVN is so-so in right now. Max doesn't retreat or play the edge at all. Besides the tactical stalling that every good wrestler will do (even Jason Nolf on the rare occasion he was in a close match) at the end of the match, I have not seen the occasion to call Murin for stalling at all against SVN.
 
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GogglesPaizano said:
A couple annecdotal observations about Kerk.

Oddly enough it seemed throughout the year Kerk was getting bigger. Every few matches his weight was 1-2 lbs heavier than previous. Even with Cassar when he was undersized he lost a few pounds throughout the season. I am now starting to wonder if this is an indicator of conditioning. Kerk seems gassed late in matches. I hope to see him next year 5-10 lbs lower, I don't see the trade-off as beneficial.

For nationals vs either Parris or Cassi, the 1st period aggressor will win. Parris is one very big, very strong, very solid heavy who gains more confidence reach time out vs Kerk. The match is no longer going to come to Kerk, he needs to have 3-4 totally committed shots in the first period to win. It's pretty clear, he can do it, the question is will he?

A rediculous analogy, but put Nolf or Levi's brain in Kerk's body and he probably majors Parris.
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Strongly, strongly disagree here. If Kerk goes out and tries to shoot a ton against Parris he’s more likely to end up getting majored.

Attacks for the sake of attacks aren’t good. Kerk needs to improve his setups more than anything else. Until he does that, Parris is just going to punish him with reattacks.
 
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Ironturd said:
Robb’s left shoelace was CLEARLY in the circle. The refs gifted that match to the F*** State wrestler. Carl must be paying them
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82bordeaux said:
He was the first time. He backed up right out of bounds. That's the rule.
The second call was a joke.
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I didn't have an issue with the first stall call as that was by definition how it should be called. The 2nd call was awful and I'm glad that Parris won even though I'm a PSU fan. Nobody wants to potentially win that way.
 
CSauertiegPSU said:
Strongly, strongly disagree here. If Kerk goes out and tries to shoot a ton against Parris he’s more likely to end up getting majored.

Attacks for the sake of attacks aren’t good. Kerk needs to improve his setups more than anything else. Until he does that, Parris is just going to punish him with reattacks.
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And along those lines, he can’t get down early. If he shoots a bunch it plays right into what Parris is best at which is reattacks. Kerk needs to create angles and only take shots that are set up extremely well. If it’s tied going into the 3rd then hopefully Mason takes a shot and Kerk can use his re-attack game which is also his best chance to score. If he takes a bad shot early and gets taken down the match will probably play out the exact same way. Parris is so good, strong, and athletic that he can just defend, hold center, and handfight if he has a lead. Kerk has to find a way to score early so Parris has to come after him. These 2 guys are both incredible and either one winning the next match wouldn’t surprise me. They both seem to have separated from Cass and probably the rest of the heavyweight field
 
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zzs006 said:
And along those lines, he can’t get down early. If he shoots a bunch it plays right into what Parris is best at which is reattacks. Kerk needs to create angles and only take shots that are set up extremely well. If it’s tied going into the 3rd then hopefully Mason takes a shot and Kerk can use his re-attack game which is also his best chance to score. If he takes a bad shot early and gets taken down the match will probably play out the exact same way. Parris is so good, strong, and athletic that he can just defend, hold center, and handfight if he has a lead. Kerk has to find a way to score early so Parris has to come after him. These 2 guys are both incredible and either one winning the next match wouldn’t surprise me. They both seem to have separated from Cass and probably the rest of the heavyweight field
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Bingo
 
On another topic, maybe I just hadn't noticed before now, but Aaron looks to have gained significant muscle mass this season. His pace and technique in the Final were unbelievable. I noticed in the video of the team presentation how down Dean looked. He took that loss very hard.
 
Hotshoe said:
What the hell are you talking about? I supported Paris. The calls were absolute nonsense.
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You should really rewatch the 285 match. First stall call was Parris bailing OB, called most times. Next calls were because Parris didn't initiate ANY offense move the whole match. First Parris TD was off a Kerk failed shot. Parris looked amazingly similar to Nelson Brands. In the words of Cael Sanderson, " what match were you watching"?
 
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Zukovski said:
You should really rewatch the 285 match. First stall call was Parris bailing OB, called most times. Next calls were because Parris didn't initiate ANY offense move the whole match. First Parris TD was off a Kerk failed shot. Parris looked amazingly similar to Nelson Brands. In the words of Cael Sanderson, " what match were you watching"?
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I don’t think I’m seeing what you’re seeing. Parris didn’t shoot after scoring but why would he. Greg never came a near a leg. Did nothing to earn the second stall.
 
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PSU Mike said:
Abe Assad netted 7.5 team points by winning one contested consi match. Alex Facundo scored only 5.5 while winning 1 championship and 2 consi matches. We need to figure out how to make Alex as efficient as Abe.
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The hope here is that at Nationals more guys should have the heart to continue wrestling instead of quitting in consolation matches.

Yep. I said quit because an injury you can wrestle through is not an excuse to forfeit because you are sulking.
 
A lot of folks here could learn from the Rutgers board. Compare Rutgers B1G performance in 2016: https://www.pennstatewrestlingclub.org/content/tournament_team_score.php?id=15&type=team with its performance in 2023: https://www.pennstatewrestlingclub.org/content/tournament_team_score.php?id=28&type=team.

The party line on the Rutgers board is that the program is getting BETTER. If anyone suggests it's not, they get roundly abused as being "unsupportive". I, myself, can't see a program with that big a drop as "getting better".

PSU won the B1G tourney (thanks in large part to Haines - without his points, PSU is second; honorable mention to Van Ness, who scored more points in the tournament than *8* finalists) for the first time in a while and is positioned well for another natty title. The sky is not falling. I trust Cael and crew to have the wrestlers prepared to do better in two weeks based on past performance.
 
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CSauertiegPSU said:
Strongly, strongly disagree here. If Kerk goes out and tries to shoot a ton against Parris he’s more likely to end up getting majored.

Attacks for the sake of attacks aren’t good. Kerk needs to improve his setups more than anything else. Until he does that, Parris is just going to punish him with reattacks.
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"committed shots" is what I said, and if you want I'll add the word 'quality' as well, I agree. Most of his shots against Parris, especially late in the matches have been neither.

It's how he beat him before. Going into the third tied or down by a point or two is not a recipe for success. Parris is markedly better than last year. Kerk looks incredible against everyone below the top 4. I think Kerk is a few pounds too big, slightly underconditioned IMO, and absolutely too cautious against Parris, who has few flaws.

I'll stick by this assertion, the wrestler who wins the first period on points will win that match 7 out of 10 times.
 
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zzs006 said:
And along those lines, he can’t get down early. If he shoots a bunch it plays right into what Parris is best at which is reattacks. Kerk needs to create angles and only take shots that are set up extremely well. If it’s tied going into the 3rd then hopefully Mason takes a shot and Kerk can use his re-attack game which is also his best chance to score. If he takes a bad shot early and gets taken down the match will probably play out the exact same way. Parris is so good, strong, and athletic that he can just defend, hold center, and handfight if he has a lead. Kerk has to find a way to score early so Parris has to come after him. These 2 guys are both incredible and either one winning the next match wouldn’t surprise me. They both seem to have separated from Cass and probably the rest of the heavyweight field
Click to expand...
If we're going to dive into unrealistic theories: Kerk can take away Parris' favorite fireman's dump by going full RBY vs. DeSanto. Two weeks should be enough to learn how to wrestle with 1 arm behind his back, right?
 
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