Cenzo VS IMAR, ESPN + IRONHEAD

[caliPSUfan]

Ok guys...we've said our piece as fans and Willie has come over to explain the actions that we disapproved of...now can we move on so as not to upset our 'not-so-secret' recruiter?

Just shake hands, agree to disagree (or agree for that matter) and slyly hand him the sealed envelope we still owe him...it's the one titled Wittlake, Nevills, RBY, Teasdale, "thank you" on it...

 

[bscaff1]

Even if you were within your legal right to do so, was it really worth it to potentially piss people off by doing so?

FloFinance projects a multi-million dollar subscriber windfall from a front page "click here for Dean Heil-George DiCamillo highlight" promotion.

 

[lauren68]

Look I'm not an attorney. I do know some things about business, though. No one goes into business to loss money. I understand Flo has a good business niche that at times is going to have some growing pains that brings with it consumer dissatisfaction. That being said I would really like to see the Ironhead version of this video. Perhaps Mr Smalls you and Flo should see how you can make this happen, even if it involves a fee to the consumer. I know I would be a buyer as I'm sure others here would, also. Stop talking the legalize and make it happen.

 

[Brian LB-U]

22 - doesn't matter that there are others up. i'll be processing requests to have them removed too. not sure what 'bad look' means. we paid for something, we're protecting that investment. you posted something illegal.

tikk - your language claims I'm being sloppy/greedy and that it's based on flimsy circumstance. the reality is, we're a tertiary rights holder. I could easily call the primary rights holder (which isn't ESPN, btw) and have them remove it, if that would be a 'better look' or if that helps you sleep at night. we pay a big price, so they want to protect their partners.

LBU - yes, we have rights to everything on our site. if there is something you question, point it out.

With all due respect, anything I point out won't be to you, Willie, nor will it be to the people who have a significant monetary stake in FloSports.

 

[johnstownsteel]

Look I'm not an attorney. I do know some things about business, though. No one goes into business to loss money. I understand Flo has a good business niche that at times is going to have some growing pains that brings with it consumer dissatisfaction. That being said I would really like to see the Ironhead version of this video. Perhaps Mr Smalls you and Flo should see how you can make this happen, even if it involves a fee to the consumer. I know I would be a buyer as I'm sure others here would, also. Stop talking the legalize and make it happen.

Wouldn't Flo have to buy the rights to include Byers call? I'm sure someone owns the rights to it. Lol

 

[johnstownsteel]

With all due respect, anything I point out won't be to you, Willie, nor will it be to the people who have a significant monetary stake in FloSports.

I seem to recall that NBCSports may have had a problem with FLO airing material they didn't have the rights to during the Olympic Trials last year. Willie may correct me on this but I remember some sort of problem and may even have had their press credentials pulled for the Olympics. Anyone remember this?

 

[WyomingAreaWarriors]

PSU22, did you happen to save a copy of the video to a drive? I wish I would have done this prior to the deletion. I would love to have a copy saved if you can send it to me somehow. Thanks!

I'd love a copy too.

 

[WyomingAreaWarriors]

Hey willie, since you're here. Could you look into why I never received a refund or free 2 months for the NWCA dual championship issues? I just sent a second email about it.

 

[El-Jefe]

Look I'm not an attorney. I do know some things about business, though. No one goes into business to loss money. I understand Flo has a good business niche that at times is going to have some growing pains that brings with it consumer dissatisfaction. That being said I would really like to see the Ironhead version of this video. Perhaps Mr Smalls you and Flo should see how you can make this happen, even if it involves a fee to the consumer. I know I would be a buyer as I'm sure others here would, also. Stop talking the legalize and make it happen.

All snark aside ... I'm not an attorney either, but do know a bit about intellectual property. I have a US patent, and am a PM with experience negotiating and executing contracts for large (multi-$B) programs.

If I were Flo, precedent would be the driving factor since one video won't make any difference to Flo's revenue. So I can see not opening the door to everyone and their cousin doing this. (I would also ask a lot of hard questions about why we paid "hefty fees" without obtaining even limited rights to full matches.)

That said, this is not in the best interest of growing the sport, which would ultimately grow Flo's business if managed well. A smart business would find a way to do both.

I would explore running a fan contest, with a select number of winners allowed to post content online. It could've worked in this case if the video had started at the beginning of the 3rd period -- 0:25 of action should qualify as a highlight. Of course this might require some contract T&Cs regarding transfer of rights, maybe NCAA and/or ESPN buy-in, etc., but that's why we hire contract reps and managers.

Something to think about for next time. Clearly there is potential to gain publicity. And it would create a lot more good will than dropping the hammer.

 

[Dogwelder]

All snark aside ... I ... am a PM with experience ...

Lookout, everyone, Jefe is about to go Pre-Menstrual!

I heard that is almost as bad as going Postal or going Medieval!

 

[El-Jefe]

Lookout, everyone, Jefe is about to go Pre-Menstrual!

I heard that is almost as bad as going Postal or going Medieval!

We run a ragtag operation around here.

 

[Dogwelder]

We run a ragtag operation around here.

Groan!

 

[El-Jefe]

Groan!

Yeah, that was a bloody awful joke.

 

[Dogwelder]

Yeah, that was a bloody awful joke.

Well, we are talking about Flow Wrestling ...

 

[johnstownsteel]

Well, we are talking about Flow Wrestling ...

Why did you use more than one Period to end your sentence?

 

[Brian LB-U]

I seem to recall that NBCSports may have had a problem with FLO airing material they didn't have the rights to during the Olympic Trials last year. Willie may correct me on this but I remember some sort of problem and may even have had their press credentials pulled for the Olympics. Anyone remember this?

Your recollection is correct: http://m.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Daily/Issues/2016/06/30/Media/FloSports.aspx?

 

[dunkej01]

you guys wore out the snare on those jokes.....

Like Mike Evans.....Sara Henryson isnt impressed with were this thread has gone

 

[Dogwelder]

you guys wore out the snare on those jokes.....

Like Mike Evans.....Sara Henryson isnt impressed with were this thread has gone

She might just pull on this soggy thread and plop it out and throw it away ...

 

[WyomingAreaWarriors]

Hey willie, since you're here. Could you look into why I never received a refund or free 2 months for the NWCA dual championship issues? I just sent a second email about it.

Willie, if you had anything at all to do with getting this looked into, I thank you for that. I was contacted today and it is taken care of.

 

[jrd23psu]

frankly, it shouldn't have been us/me that took it down. it should have been the NCAA and/or T3.

Then let them request the takedown. Who are you, the copyright police? Get real. The copyright holder had every right to ask for this to be taken down, but you only did it because you want to force people to pay for Flo's crappy product. And yes, it's a crappy product. All I've ever seen is people complain about it.

Stop acting like you did this for altruistic purposes. You did this out of 100% greed.

 

[Goodfish9]

Never underestimate the power of the team. Nolf suggested that the throw by might be there. Cenzo got the message, just moments before the match started.

 

[zzs006]

You guys that are saying FLO sucks are crazy! I've been able to watch more wrestling this year through FLO than I have in the last 10 years! And I pay $12 a month to see it. They have had some major public screw ups especially the PSU-OSU duel but in my opinion it's still way better than anything else out there. This weekend I am going to get to watch high quality wrestling and see matches that matter all for a few bucks.

 

[pawrestlersintn]

I sure wish Flo only charged for the unpopular content, and made all the good stuff free. Just think of all the good will they could generate for themselves in the wrestling community. Guys on here would be throwing dollars like it was a strip club.

Just look how well it worked for the music industry.

 

[Goodfish9]

Wow. Youtube took it off. It is now unavailable.

 

[James Toney]

I canceled my flo membership yesterday, NOT because of what happened on this thread either. Terrible customer support, and they will not get another penny from me.

 

[Goodfish9]

Not cool. They've taken all the footage off the net.

 

[pawrestlersintn]

Can all of you guys tell me what goods and services you provide? Based on the reaction here, I'm going to start requesting you to do work for me, since you apparently do it for free.

 

[Pennstate1985]

Can all of you guys tell me what goods and services you provide? Based on the reaction here, I'm going to start requesting you to do work for me, since you apparently do it for free.

I know what you're saying, but Flo didn't do any of the work either, so your argument falls flat.

 

[PSUer1989]

The championships will be re-aired- FOR FREE- on the WatchESPN app on May 23 and 24th. Set your DVRs and record them. Flo has no control over that....I really think they were short-sighted in this....

 

[TangSoo]

You guys that are saying FLO sucks are crazy! I've been able to watch more wrestling this year through FLO than I have in the last 10 years! And I pay $12 a month to see it. They have had some major public screw ups especially the PSU-OSU duel but in my opinion it's still way better than anything else out there. This weekend I am going to get to watch high quality wrestling and see matches that matter all for a few bucks.

Let me know how that turns out for you. Seriously. From my own personal perspective Flo is going to have to show some consistency over an extended period of time before they get my money again. I know high school kids who can and have successfully aired live events. It's really not rocket science.

 

[jrd23psu]

You guys that are saying FLO sucks are crazy! I've been able to watch more wrestling this year through FLO than I have in the last 10 years! And I pay $12 a month to see it. They have had some major public screw ups especially the PSU-OSU duel but in my opinion it's still way better than anything else out there. This weekend I am going to get to watch high quality wrestling and see matches that matter all for a few bucks.

I'm sure Willie or the other guys at Flo told you to come here and tell us this.

It would be one thing if Flo did this, but when you have Willie coming here and insulting our intelligence by trying to make us believe he did it because it's the right thing to do it's a bit much.

Willie (and Flo by default) want to limit where you can get content because they think it will force people to play for Flo. I tried Flo once and had a poor experience. Nobody is going to run over to Flo because they took down the Cenzo match from YouTube. It was short sighted and only makes both Willie and Flo look bad.

 

[greenmanRD]

I am eager to watch the US Open, but to remove historic matches from public consumption only takes eyes away from the sport and is bad for the sport. Considering what happened at the Oklahoma State dual and now this, it's seriously making me question whether to continue my subscription when it is up in September.

 

[Chickenman Testa]

It will be interesting to see the path Flo takes once its founders get "paid" and its investors satisfy their ROI. Flo's growth chart looks a lot like a company I worked for. Early days were filled with hard work, but kegs in the staff kitchen and World Cup qualifiers on sling box in the conference room. Then the money men came in with a lot of promises and demands. Higher ideals and fun went out the window.

In the end, the needs of the fans take a back seat. It's the needs of the suits with the cash who will drive Flo's "vision".

I'm sure the use of the word "monetize" has increased about 4000% at Flo in the past few years.

At my old job, it took all my strength after listening to an empty suit string together a bunch of meaningless corporate buzzwords not to say "what the eff are you even talking about?"

 

[dicemen99]

I'm sure Willie or the other guys at Flo told you to come here and tell us this.

It would be one thing if Flo did this, but when you have Willie coming here and insulting our intelligence by trying to make us believe he did it because it's the right thing to do it's a bit much.

Willie (and Flo by default) want to limit where you can get content because they think it will force people to play for Flo. I tried Flo once and had a poor experience. Nobody is going to run over to Flo because they took down the Cenzo match from YouTube. It was short sighted and only makes both Willie and Flo look bad.

Flo didnt tell ME to post here lol, but I'm doing it anyway.

Im a FLO subscriber and its worth every penny. As far as the guy who knows high school kids who can stream live video better - tell them to forget college and head right for the job market they should be in high demand. I've been a subscriber for a few years now and their product has gotten consistently better. A few minor - and major, National duals, hiccups along the way, but overall the past 18 months or so I've rarely had an issue watching what i want.

As far as the Cenzo-Joseph match being taken down - are people really complaining about an ILLEGAL video posting removed?

FLO currently has the highlights posted. Which they paid a rights fee for. Subcribe to FLO if you want to see hit.

ESPN has rights to rebroadcast the event which they are doing in May. Which they paid rights fees for. DVR it if you want to.

As far as "good of the sport" they are not a philanthropic enterprise. They have a financial interest in having that video removed - right now they are they only place you can see any of the match. If they had the rights to the full match you can bet it would be up there. They don't.

They do plenty of good IMO just giving access to the community the events that they did. Most of which were never available before to be viewed anywhere but in person. If you want it, pay for it.

 

[backdrft76]

Still hoping the creator of the vid had it saved somewhere and can put it somewhere so we can download it.

 

[horraybeer]

I am also a flo subcriber, but their customer service is terrible and the streaming of live events is suspect. I think that is the reason for the flo bashing and taking down an illegal upload is just a springboard for unhappy customers to voice it.

 

[seeyajohn]

Still hoping the creator of the vid had it saved somewhere and can put it somewhere so we can download it.

+1

 

[jrd23psu]

Flo didnt tell ME to post here lol, but I'm doing it anyway.



As far as the Cenzo-Joseph match being taken down - are people really complaining about an ILLEGAL video posting removed?

I'll tell you specifically what I'm saying. The copyright owner has every right to request a takedown from YouTube. They own the copyright. Flo requested it because they want to limit content in an attempt to force people to subscribe to Flo, who after years of doing this still cannot live stream an event correctly. The fact that Flo is terribly inept at live streaming is really not the issue here, though.

It's Willie showing up here and trying to pretend like he was being altruistic in requesting the takedown on behalf of Flo. It's insulting to our intelligence. We know why he did it.

Willie and Flo by association aren't the copyright police and you don't see them going through YouTube and requesting DMCA takedowns for all copyrighted material they see, they did this because they simply did not like the fact that people could watch this match elsewhere, despite them not holding the copyright for what was on YouTube.

They would have been better served to not bother coming here and trying to tell they us did it because it was the right thing to do when it's obvious they did it because they simply don't like the content being out there. Nobody likes being fed a bunch of bullshit.

 

[tikk10]

Flo didnt tell ME to post here lol, but I'm doing it anyway.

Im a FLO subscriber and its worth every penny. As far as the guy who knows high school kids who can stream live video better - tell them to forget college and head right for the job market they should be in high demand. I've been a subscriber for a few years now and their product has gotten consistently better. A few minor - and major, National duals, hiccups along the way, but overall the past 18 months or so I've rarely had an issue watching what i want.

As far as the Cenzo-Joseph match being taken down - are people really complaining about an ILLEGAL video posting removed?

FLO currently has the highlights posted. Which they paid a rights fee for. Subcribe to FLO if you want to see hit.

ESPN has rights to rebroadcast the event which they are doing in May. Which they paid rights fees for. DVR it if you want to.

As far as "good of the sport" they are not a philanthropic enterprise. They have a financial interest in having that video removed - right now they are they only place you can see any of the match. If they had the rights to the full match you can bet it would be up there. They don't.

They do plenty of good IMO just giving access to the community the events that they did. Most of which were never available before to be viewed anywhere but in person. If you want it, pay for it.

First, I do pay for Flo yearly because they have a monopoly on events I want to watch. If there was a competitor offering a choice, you're right, I'd have nothing to complain about, I could just switch. Flo isn't somehow magically immune to my criticism because they provide coverage to events that weren't previously available. I paid for that already, I don't need to send them a thank-you card. Further, their business model requires engagement with the wrestling community or they won't succeed. If Flo plays it fast and loose, such as jacking up its subscription rates to capitalize on a dual meet of the century that they don't have the technical ability to deliver, well, the solution isn't to embargo my thank-you card until they get it right. Especially when it's indicative of a larger pattern.

The issue that arose here isn't whether Flo bought rights but whether they were within their legal rights to take down the video in question. I explained in this thread why they don't. Why this matters beyond what some might view as legal technicality (what the law actually defines as perjury) is that it's another example of Flo playing fast and loose and being shortsighted. Despite the comfort in reducing the issue into a good guy and bad guy, it's not that simple.

As far as my "good of the sport" critique goes, I guess you missed the FRL where Christian and Willie ripped Track for an hour for not acting in for the good of the sport over what was essentially a commercial dispute between Flo and Track. Flo cites business reasons when called on the carpet, but doesn't hesitate to pull the "good of the sport" card when they didn't get their way at the negotiating table. I'm merely holding Flo to their own standards. And indeed, it may have even been true that Track wasn't operating in wrestling's best interests--my point is simply that the "good of the sport" criticism is valid, period.

And in case anyone thinks I'm seizing on this for personal reasons (not that I can think of any but people might be wondering what set me off), intellectual property overreach has long been an issue for me completely apart from wrestling.

 

[jrd23psu]

First, I do pay for Flo yearly because they have a monopoly on events I want to watch. If there was a competitor offering a choice, you're right, I'd have nothing to complain about, I could just switch. Flo isn't somehow magically immune to my criticism because they provide coverage to events that weren't previously available. I paid for that already, I don't need to send them a thank-you card. Further, their business model requires engagement with the wrestling community or they won't succeed. If Flo plays it fast and loose, such as jacking up its subscription rates to capitalize on a dual meet of the century that they don't have the technical ability to deliver, well, the solution isn't to embargo my thank-you card until they get it right. Especially when it's indicative of a larger pattern.

The issue that arose here isn't whether Flo bought rights but whether they were within their legal rights to take down the video in question. I explained in this thread why they don't. Why this matters beyond what some might view as legal technicality (what the law actually defines as perjury) is that it's another example of Flo playing fast and loose and being shortsighted. Despite the comfort in reducing the issue into a good guy and bad guy, it's not that simple.

As far as my "good of the sport" critique goes, I guess you missed the FRL where Christian and Willie ripped Track for an hour for not acting in for the good of the sport over what was essentially a commercial dispute between Flo and Track. Flo cites business reasons when called on the carpet, but doesn't hesitate to pull the "good of the sport" card when they didn't get their way at the negotiating table. I'm merely holding Flo to their own standards. And indeed, it may have even been true that Track wasn't operating in wrestling's best interests--my point is simply that the "good of the sport" criticism is valid, period.

And in case anyone thinks I'm seizing on this for personal reasons (not that I can think of any but people might be wondering what set me off), intellectual property overreach has long been an issue for me completely apart from wrestling.

Speaking of fast and loose, Flo plays fast and loose with their paywall. Some people might say you don't need a premium subscription to watch a single video on their website.