Anyone still on the Chambers Bandwagon?

[CappyToCJF]

Nonsense. I'll take this current season over 90% of the seasons I've watched the past 25 years. Same with next season if everyone returns.

When you people put down the pipe dream that we have the potential to be a CBB super power if we would just invest money, you will start coming to grips with reality.

We had some bad luck and some young kids make dumb frustrating decisions in close games but it's been incredibly watchable edition of Penn State basketball and Pat was responsible.

The most talented PSU team ever assembled has been unwatchable to you? I bet you've watched every game. Get off your horse and off the ledge.

Unwatchable will be next year's team if Pat is fired. That will be utter vomit as we try to scratch out win 10 in late February.

You must not understand common English as I did not say PSU could be a CBB super power.

Only that our current coaches teams play like they are not coached and that with a competent coach this team would close out games against less talented teams and be much less frustrating to watch.

You, on the other hand, make excuses such as the team has "bad luck", and "young players" are making dumb frustrating decisions.

Well coached, disciplined and motivated players, just like motivated, disciplined and smart individuals, make their own luck.

This team is not young, and the quality of the decisions that are made by seasoned players, which our players are, are a direct reflection of the development, strategies, and discipline the coach fosters and requires.

Garner - 4th year
Reeves - 3rd
Watkins - 3rd
Carr - 2nd
Stevens - 2nd
Moore - 5th
Bostic- 2nd
Pierce - 3rd?

Yet for long stretches of games they play like a team of true freshmen....

Get off the "we can't do better than Pat" and "I'm so afraid, it can only get worse" ledge and realize that good coaches don't need 10 years to turn around a power 5 program.

 

[cop113]

No excuses now that we have some talent! After the years of high-paid, on-the-job training, we should have won a few more close games. I'm tired of seeing Chambers lose the end game!

I jumped off that bandwagon a long time ago.

 

[Erial_Lion]

This team is not young...

In terms of Pomeroy's "experience rating", were at the 28th percentile (252nd out of 351 teams). We're not nearly as young as last season, but we are still young, relatively speaking, when looking at the rest of the country. In looking just at the B1G, we are the 9th most experienced team out of the 14.

 

[cfbinsider]

This is a young team. If it were to make the NCAA tournament, it would be a historical young team.

Young teams absent one-and-done talent just do not make the NCAA tournament. It's a pipe dream.

You can criticize Pat for how long it's taken but it's impossible to deny that this is one of the better performing teams in our history and next year will be one of the most talented teams in our history if he returns.

Give a guy time to get to the top of the mountain and when he gets there, kick him off?

Seems like a colossal blunder considering our status in the college basketball world. Firing Pat might be the dumbest thing we could do right now. Another reboot where all the talented players run for the hills and the current committs are released from their LOI.

Firing Pat might end up being the dumbest move in Penn State basketball history if Sandy decides to go that route.

 

[LioninNC]

As much as I’d like to avoid “another reboot”, a couple of really lean years might be worth it if Sandy wants to get serious about basketball and make a splash with a new coaching hire. Don’t get me wrong, I like Pat and think he’s embraced “Success with Honor” and is a great representative of the university. But from what I’ve seen, we have reached his ceiling given who he is able to recruit and his development of players.

And please, don’t give me the we don’t have a good basketball history and top players don’t want to come to State College excuses. Texas Tech is presently 15-2, ranked 8th, and 1 game behind Kansas in the Big 12. I don’t consider them to have a great basketball tradition and I don’t consider “Lubbock” to be any better of a destination that State College. I’m sorry, but after suffering through watching mostly woeful Penn State basketball for the last 40 years, I want to see Penn State be in a position to compete for Big 10 championships every year, not have stretch goals of a .500 record and NCAA spot as a 12th seed.

 

[auxgym]

There absolutely is an excuse. You lost your very best player to a suspension. That's a legit excuse whether you like it or not.

Taking Reaves off this team and replacing his minutes with Nazeer Bostick is akin to replacing Aaron Rodgers with Brett Hundley and telling Mike McCarthy, "No excuses, you should have made the playoffs this year."

Anyone who says "no excuses" is utterly clueless on how important Reaves is.

If Ed had Battle or Brooks miss a half-semester in the 2010-11 season, he wouldn't have had an NCAA appearance either.

You do realize that there is support staff in place to monitor the academic progress of players on the basketball team. There is also academic support available to Penn State athletes to assist them in their studies. I don't think it's a reach to say a portion of the blame for Reeves being ineligible is on Chambers. It's possible that some people don't have a lot of sympathy for Pat on this one.

 

[bison13]

Whats inexcusable is not learning or improving in time/score situations in 7 years or at least getting someone on staff who you allow to help you with those decisions. I'm fine with the 1 more year thing for him provided there is a stipulation the make the dance or else.

 

[ILLINOISLION]

You do realize that there is support staff in place to monitor the academic progress of players on the basketball team. There is also academic support available to Penn State athletes to assist them in their studies. I don't think it's a reach to say a portion of the blame for Reeves being ineligible is on Chambers. It's possible that some people don't have a lot of sympathy for Pat on this one.

Actually with all the support student-athletes get, the blame is ON the student-athlete.

I can be critical of Chambers for game management, clock management, strategy, etc., but this should not be dumped on him.

 

[83wuzme]

A few facts :
- this is no longer a young team, as a previous poster pointed out. Even two of the three players in their second year have played a very large amount of minutes over the past two seasons.
- Pat reportedly inherited a team in 2011 - 2012 that was in shambles, yet that squad finished equal or better in the conference than most of the teams during his tenure, including last season ( tied for 12th place ). I suppose you could argue that the addition of MD and RU means that 10th place is now the same as 12th. Either way, it isn’t good.
- PSU has had one postseason appearance under Pat during his tenure. That was the CBI. This is a lot less than during tenures of similar length of Jerry Dunn and Ed DeChellis.

So we’ve been through more than one full recruiting cycle with no measurable improvement as far as being more competetive within the conference. What I would ask the pro Chambers advocates is when has it been enough ? At what point in terms of record or time do you decide that it isn’t working ?

 

[Erial_Lion]

A few facts :
- this is no longer a young team, as a previous poster pointed out. Even two of the three players in their second year have played a very large amount of minutes over the past two seasons.
- Pat reportedly inherited a team in 2011 - 2012 that was in shambles, yet that squad finished equal or better in the conference than most of the teams during his tenure, including last season ( tied for 12th place ). I suppose you could argue that the addition of MD and RU means that 10th place is now the same as 12th.

How is it a "fact" that the team isn't young when it's at the 28th percentile in the country in terms of "weighted" experience? In truth, it still is a relatively young team.

Also, Pat's first team went 12-20 and finished tied for last in the Big Ten. How is that "equal or better than most of the teams in his tenure"?

 

[NewEra 2014]

You can criticize Pat for how long it's taken but it's impossible to deny that this is one of the better performing teams in our history.

I think I can readily deny that this is one of the better performing teams in our history. This team has performed like utter crap for most of the season. Even when they win, they are playing poor basketball.

I actually want this team to lose if they are going to continue to play Carr hero ball. Because losses will serve to move the program in a new direction. Now if Chambers can somehow get these players to start playing team ball, I will have an open mind about keeping him around. But I’m not hopeful.

 

[83wuzme]

How is it a "fact" that the team isn't young when it's at the 28th percentile in the country in terms of "weighted" experience? In truth, it still is a relatively young team.

Also, Pat's first team went 12-20 and finished tied for last in the Big Ten. How is that "equal or better than most of the teams in his tenure"?

I rechecked and I was wrong. We finished tied for 11th that first season. We were tied for 12th last season. The best we ever did was 10th place. That was back when we went to the CBI.
So how and when you decide it isn’t working out ?

 

[auxgym]

Actually with all the support student-athletes get, the blame is ON the student-athlete.

I can be critical of Chambers for game management, clock management, strategy, etc., but this should not be dumped on him.

The point is Chambers HAD to know he was in academic trouble, yet here we are. Chambers should have benched him in the fall to get his books in order BEFORE it turns into an eligibility issue.

 

[Erial_Lion]

So how and when you decide it isn’t working out ?

When we stop improving most likely. Season keeps heading down this same track but our core comes back next year, and I probably keep Pat. We catch lighting in a bottle and finish strong (like say a run to MSG in the NIT), but Tony and Mike decide to leave, and I'm probably in favor of heading in a different direction.

The reality is that getting rid of Pat likely means a few really lean years in the horizon as the roster turns over and someone else begins to build his program. Might be better for the long term, but not sure I'm willing to do it if our core (plus Dread/Bolton) would hang around with Pat next year.

 

[cfbinsider]

I think I can readily deny that this is one of the better performing teams in our history. This team has performed like utter crap for most of the season. Even when they win, they are playing poor basketball.

I actually want this team to lose if they are going to continue to play Carr hero ball. Because losses will serve to move the program in a new direction. Now if Chambers can somehow get these players to start playing team ball, I will have an open mind about keeping him around. But I’m not hopeful.

This is the best Penn State team in the Kenpom era. You lose the argument.

Apparently people forget how horrible this program has been.

I have problems with Carr ball and some other things with Pat's decisions. Doesn't change the fact that he has increased the talent here and the current team, which is a young team no matter how much people want to deny it, is performing WAY ABOVE Penn State norms.

The alternative of blowing the current team up is monumentally worse than keeping him.

You blow teams up and get rid of coaches when next year looks like a dud season. Next year looks like a Top 25 season. And with the operating budget the scool is working with, all you will be hiring is similar caliber and reputation coaches. To blow it up for another gamble? Mind numbing. The school is not taking a high risk expensive coach in the next hire. The numbers have been crunched, the upside is small, and it doesn't make much sense financially. Basketball team already makes good money that supports other teams.

 

[83wuzme]

When we stop improving most likely. Season keeps heading down this same track but our core comes back next year, and I probably keep Pat. We catch lighting in a bottle and finish strong (like say a run to MSG in the NIT), but Tony and Mike decide to leave, and I'm probably in favor of heading in a different direction.

The reality is that getting rid of Pat likely means a few really lean years in the horizon as the roster turns over and someone else begins to build his program. Might be better for the long term, but not sure I'm willing to do it if our core (plus Dread/Bolton) would hang around with Pat next year.

I don’t think we have enough post players or bench to finish strong, even if the coaching weren’t an issue.

 

[wbcincy]

I rechecked and I was wrong. We finished tied for 11th that first season. We were tied for 12th last season. The best we ever did was 10th place. That was back when we went to the CBI.
So how and when you decide it isn’t working out ?

I see you skipped his question about how it's a "fact" this team isn't young. That's just false. It doesn't help your argument if you present things as facts that are easily objectively proven untrue.

 

[83wuzme]

Refer to the post by CappytoCJF near the top of this page.
Even the “ young “ players have played a lot of minutes, with the exception of Bostick. So they’re not really so young. I also wonder if we are going to remain young through premature attririon due to academics and guys seeking transfer because they are not bought in.
I get the feeling that people are already polishing up this excuse for next season for when the incoming freshmen play significantly and we continue to struggle against less talented opponents.

 

[Nitt1300]

I don't follow basketball. But I am aware of PSU's long record of futility in the sport.

Having no dog in the fight I would only question- would any big name coach come to Penn State, or will it be necessary to just hope the next one becomes a big name?

AND- In today's "one and done" environment, does men's basketball even fit into a legitimate "college athletics" program?

 

[Erial_Lion]

This is the best Penn State team in the Kenpom era. You lose the argument.

FYI..,with the performance over the past week, we dropped below the 2011 team.

 

[wbcincy]

Refer to the post by CappytoCJF near the top of this page.
Even the “ young “ players have played a lot of minutes, with the exception of Bostick. So they’re not really so young. I also wonder if we are going to remain young through premature attririon due to academics and guys seeking transfer because they are not bought in.
I get the feeling that people are already polishing up this excuse for next season for when the incoming freshmen play significantly and we continue to struggle against less talented opponents.

Pomeroys "experience" ranking takes that time played into account. They're still young, objectively, when compared with the rest of D-I players' experience.

 

[84Lion]

I have decided to nickname Chambers "Jim Jones" because he seems to have convinced his followers to drink the kool-aid. Even in the face of another "mediocre-at-best" season, they're eagerly lining up at the barrel for another glassful.

You know, I'd be happy if Penn State aspired to catch up to Ohio State - not in football, but basketball! Last year, Ohio State had the gall and temerity to fire Thad Matta for not making the NCAAs for two seasons! I should add that Matta had OSU in the postseason every year of his tenure except the first (ineligible) and last (at 17-15, a very Penn State-esque record that had OSU for tied for 10th in-conference). This year, according to the formula espoused by the Chambers disciples, should be a "rebuilding year" for OSU - but gee whiz, their new coach has them at 16-4 and undefeated in conference play, tied for 1st place in the B1G!

This is the problem with Penn State. The administration needs to be bolder and take action immediately rather than give a coach an excessive amount of rope to hang himself. Ohio State isn't showing timidity and it's working for them. The fans don't do any favors by supporting Chambers. As long as the administration thinks that mediocrity is acceptable, they'll buy into it. Meanwhile, Penn State men's basketball sits at home during the postseason. And you guys think that's gonna help Chambers' recruiting?

 

[Erial_Lion]

Pomeroys "experience" ranking takes that time played into account. They're still young, objectively, when compared with the rest of D-I players' experience.

I'm 99% sure it's just looking at a players class, and not minutes. But either way, it's still a very good measure of youth vs. experience, as the other 351 teams also have guys that redshirted, guys that played as freshmen, etc. It's kinda ridiculous to write it off and say "it's a fact that they're not young, because I said so", when metrics exist to give a better picture.

 

[psu00]

I rechecked and I was wrong. We finished tied for 11th that first season. We were tied for 12th last season. The best we ever did was 10th place. That was back when we went to the CBI.
So how and when you decide it isn’t working out ?

This is my question as well. Every year we go through these arguments and it always ends up the same way- “recruiting is better- wait til next year”. When is enough, enough?

Last year it seemed the consensus was PSU should make the tournament (ncaa or nit) this year. Well, here we are (granted mid season) that looks like another no tournament year.

When is it enough? Can we all agree on some firm deadline where it’s finally over if he doesn’t make the tournament?

It just seems like each year’s deadlines get reworked the following year when it’s obvious nothing’s changed, and we have a never ending “wait til next year” mantra. It’s year 7 already (and IIRC his numbers aren’t much better than the last 2 coaches).

 

[wbcincy]

I'm 99% sure it's just looking at a players class, and not minutes. But either way, it's still a very good measure of youth vs. experience, as the other 351 teams also have guys that redshirted, guys that played as freshmen, etc. It's kinda ridiculous to write it off and say "it's a fact that they're not young, because I said so", when metrics exist to give a better picture.

Apologies if I'm incorrect on that. Pretty dumb measure if it doesn't account for actual experience.

 

[fairfaxlion2]

This is Pat's third major failure and he really just has to go. The first major failure was Newbill's senior year when PSU piled up loss after loss in close and winnable games. Pat got outcoached in late game situations. The second major failure was last year when Pat created a ridiculously difficult schedule for true freshmen. The schedule resulted in no NIT or NCAA. He should have created this year's schedule for last year and vice versa. This year it has to be NCAA or you are fired and it is looking extremely unlikely that PSU can get an at-large bid. They can really only afford two more losses and have not even played MSU, Purdue or Ohio State at this point. This almost certainly ends in Pat getting fired, players transferring, and a reboot. Or, it could possibly end like 1999-00 when Jerry Dunn was about to get fired and then pulled off a huge upset in the BTT, which catapulted PSU into the NIT and they went to the NIT semifinals. Unless something like that happens I don't think Pat can point to any accomplishments other than recruiting success.

 

[wbcincy]

Not surprisingly, PSU is in the bottom 25 for "luck" ranking. With all the close games, how different the record could be if they were top 25 instead of bottom 25. Frustrating.

 

[wbcincy]

This is Pat's third major failure and he really just has to go. The first major failure was Newbill's senior year when PSU piled up loss after loss in close and winnable games. Pat got outcoached in late game situations. The second major failure was last year when Pat created a ridiculously difficult schedule for true freshmen. The schedule resulted in no NIT or NCAA. He should have created this year's schedule for last year and vice versa. This year it has to be NCAA or you are fired and it is looking extremely unlikely that PSU can get an at-large bid. They can really only afford two more losses and have not even played MSU, Purdue or Ohio State at this point. This almost certainly ends in Pat getting fired, players transferring, and a reboot. Or, it could possibly end like 1999-00 when Jerry Dunn was about to get fired and then pulled off a huge upset in the BTT, which catapulted PSU into the NIT and they went to the NIT semifinals. Unless something like that happens I don't think Pat can point to any accomplishments other than recruiting success.

This year is NCAA or fired? For a group of sophomores? That's kind of a silly expectation. This is NIT or bust year.

 

[Erial_Lion]

You know, I'd be happy if Penn State aspired to catch up to Ohio State - not in football, but basketball! Last year, Ohio State had the gall and temerity to fire Thad Matta for not making the NCAAs for two seasons!

Not sure if you follow college basketball more than casually (I'm assuming "no" based on the post), but saying that OSU fired Matta because they missed the tournament is a pretty big mischaracterization of what went down.

And LOL at the whole "I just want to be Ohio State"...newsflash, there are about 330 other programs in the country that "just" want to catch up to Ohio St. I'm sure that somewhere on the Illinois/Indiana/Oregon St football boards, there is someone saying they "just" want to be like PSU.

 

[fairfaxlion2]

Not surprisingly, PSU is in the bottom 25 for "luck" ranking. With all the close games, how different the record could be if they were top 25 instead of bottom 25. Frustrating.

the close games have been ending in Ls for seven years, with the possible exception of 2014-15.

 

[harjeff]

You don't think PSU would release a kid from his LOI if we fired Chambers? I see no way that things would go in that direction.

Pretty sure PSU has no say in that as it is an NCAA rule...the only way the grant waivers to immediately play somewhere else is for rules violations. Coaching changes happen all the time in Basketball and football being the most visible and kids can't transfer without sitting out regardless of the signed with institution granting a waiver.

 

[fairfaxlion2]

This year is NCAA or fired? For a group of sophomores? That's kind of a silly expectation. This is NIT or bust year.

I would say that it is definitely an NCAA or bust year.

 

[Erial_Lion]

Pretty sure PSU has no say in that as it is an NCAA rule...the only way the grant waivers to immediately play somewhere else is for rules violations. Coaching changes happen all the time in Basketball and football being the most visible and kids can't transfer without sitting out regardless of the signed with institution granting a waiver.

Thats incorrect, and is exactly why Wheeler is playing for us this season (Duquesne released him from his LOI after they fired Ferry, which is basically SOP). Rules are much more relaxed when it's just an LOI vs. when a player enrolled.

 

[Erial_Lion]

Apologies if I'm incorrect on that. Pretty dumb measure if it doesn't account for actual experience.

It's really as much of a "forward looking" measure as much as it is a current measure.

 

[Bubbas Breakaway]

I would say that it is definitely an NCAA or bust year.

You would hope

 

[cfbinsider]

I have decided to nickname Chambers "Jim Jones" because he seems to have convinced his followers to drink the kool-aid. Even in the face of another "mediocre-at-best" season, they're eagerly lining up at the barrel for another glassful.

With Reaves, analytics and Vegas power rankings have us a Top 50 team this year out of 351 Division 1 Schools.

Apparently you need help with the definition of mediocre.

 

[77 PSU]

Those that want the coach back, when you watch the games do you see a well coached team that hustles for 40 minutes? And remember Sandy will need to give Chambers a contract extension for him to return.

 

[PSU&Trout]

Those that want the coach back, when you watch the games do you see a well coached team that hustles for 40 minutes? And remember Sandy will need to give Chambers a contract extension for him to return.

No, no I don't see a well coached team. Yes I want the coach back. After 50 years of PSU BB I just don't want to start over once again at block one.

 

[Erial_Lion]

No, no I don't see a well coached team. Yes I want the coach back. After 50 years of PSU BB I just don't want to start over once again at block one.

Basically how I feel...Chambers isn't a great coach, but he is a very good recruiter. I'd give him like a "3" for coaching, and "9" for recruiting. But if everyone is back, the promise of next year is too good for me to blow it up. A few guys decide to leave though, and I move along.

 

[Pinkhippo PeanutButter]

No, no I don't see a well coached team. Yes I want the coach back. After 50 years of PSU BB I just don't want to start over once again at block one.

I just want a winner. Maybe we need to start by cutting the fans with losing attitudes.

It's really simple. There are like 10 or 15 schools that never miss the NCAA. Ever. They have deep coaching trees and assistants right now.

Take those, rank the top 10 prospects, offer $3-5 million if needed.

Presto. No-one transfers and recruiting improves. Gameday coaching is better. Suddenly PSU is in the tournament most years.