Lee VS. Taylor - Debate

[johnstownsteel]

It's an interesting question. I don't think it's a technical thing. Marinelli doesn't just "push for the stall." He takes a lot of attacks. Ask Cenzo. I see that line a lot on here and I'm completely befuddled by it. Feels like some of you are projecting the prior generation of Iowa guys on him for some reason.

The biggest thing would be mentality. Cael consistently gets his guys to wrestle at their highest level at NCAA's. Marinelli hasn't been bad at NCAA's, but he hasn't raised his level either.

It doesn't help that he's incredibly easy to scout. Post hi-c, Post double, overtie post single. And he'll keep firing even if it's not there to his detriment (see losses to Lewis and Griffith).

Could Cael have added new wrinkles? Maybe, but some guys are just built to do certain things. He's been hitting those same 3 attacks since I first saw him wrestle at Ironman his freshman year of high school. I don't think he'd be a drastically different wrestler at PSU, but maybe performed better when it mattered.

Btw, you should stay away from HR. Shame I've always lumped you in with so many of those idiots over there but I guess it's just easier than trying to sift the few good ones out from the bad. You're definitely one that puts out fair arguments and shows respect to our athletes and coaches. That's a breath of fresh air and I certainly welcome it here...

 

[donboy6499]

No that wasn't what he was saying lol. Getting hip tipped in one scramble = "bad leg attacks" is absurd.

Y'all can cope all you want because Spencer broke your hearts and left the state, but here's the problem with your argument. It's an admission that the Brands bros did more with Spencer than Cael did with his star protege, which I don't think is true.

If you have it your way, the Brands bros took Spencer to another level after a month of training. If DT was a better high school wrestler, what's Cael's excuse for not getting him to Spencer's level of college success?

When you visit another team’s message board 50 times a day, I don’t think our coping should be your main psychological concern.

 

[js8793]

Jumping in here but IMO

125. I don't think Spencer's level is much different than DT's in college.

IMO there's a whole lot of misconception about Spencer on this thread - mostly, from non-PA people. I first saw him when he was in 6th grade and he certainly was an all-timer in PA. But there have been a few all-timers here. Spencer's domination of really, really good wrestlers is what has always caused one to go "wow." But - and this is not a knock against him at all, you can look at a lot of the all-timers and say the same - when he runs up against other generational guys he can look mortal. HS and College. And if you're good enough to weather one of the greatest early storms of all time - you can beat him, but you've got to be an ultra-talent to do that. He can lose like anyone else.

What makes people think his level is different is what he does to the 1B guys. He just destroys them. And quickly. It just impresses the hell out of everyone - and rightly so, as it's unique. But DT kind of did that as well - albeit in college.

I'm not familiar enough with DT's HS career to pass judgment on DT vs. Spencer in HS in FOLKSTYLE (which is what IMO we should be talking about). But I am familiar with other PA guys who were dominant in HS. You could argue a guy like Chris Kwortnik had about (maybe not, but close and I'm making a point) as dominant HS career as Spencer in terms of folkstyle.

And don't give me the JR worlds as evidence - pointing to the IL guy now, lol. That's totally apples and oranges and IMO his JR world title at 50kg or whatever it was is less impressive than a Cadet world title (now) at a more contested weight. It's like Fargo JR 100 or 106 or whatever that is. Don't take that as a slight at his freestyle prowess, either. My guess is he will be a real international talent for the US (although we've yet to really see that at the SR level), it's just pointing out that JR world lightweight titles shouldn't come into play at all in who would win a HS folkstyle match between the two. Just my 2 cents.

I think a lot of this makes sense. The only thing I'd push back about jr worlds at 50 kg is that argument also applies to DT's much worse result too. Also, a bunch of future world champs started at 50 kg JRs.

But I agree that freestyle isn't that relevant, just one piece of evidence of several. To me, when I think about the match, I think Spencer is a particularly bad match up for that DT. He was extremely technical, but didn't have a ton of horsepower before he grew into his body. Hard to imagine now lol, but when he bumped from 112 to 135, he got caught a couple times by stronger wrestlers. You saw that same dynamic again when he bumped to 157 until he got stronger. Even that second year at 157, there were moments when he struggled to finish shots and got caught underneath if he didn't get to the ankle (DSJ and Bubba).

His overall ability still made him dominant, but Spencer not only has a similar technical prowess, he's also by all accounts freakishly powerful. I think that's the difference in the match.

 

[js8793]

When you visit another team’s message board 50 times a day, I don’t think our coping should be your main psychological concern.

It's the offseason and HR is dead. I'll talk about wrestling wherever I can, even with you fine folks lol. Have a good one!

 

[Dogwelder]

It's an interesting question. I don't think it's a technical thing. Marinelli doesn't just "push for the stall." He takes a lot of attacks. Ask Cenzo. I see that line a lot on here and I'm completely befuddled by it. Feels like some of you are projecting the prior generation of Iowa guys on him for some reason.

The biggest thing would be mentality. Cael consistently gets his guys to wrestle at their highest level at NCAA's. Marinelli hasn't been bad at NCAA's, but he hasn't raised his level either.

It doesn't help that he's incredibly easy to scout. Post hi-c, Post double, overtie post single. And he'll keep firing even if it's not there to his detriment (see losses to Lewis and Griffith).

Could Cael have added new wrinkles? Maybe, but some guys are just built to do certain things. He's been hitting those same 3 attacks since I first saw him wrestle at Ironman his freshman year of high school. I don't think he'd be a drastically different wrestler at PSU, but maybe performed better when it mattered.

Hey JS, I enjoy reading your wrestling takes. You say thoughtful things. You and McScorely have been solid and enjoyable to read, for me.

 

[js8793]

Btw, you should stay away from HR. Shame I've always lumped you in with so many of those idiots over there but I guess it's just easier than trying to sift the few good ones out from the bad. You're definitely one that puts out fair arguments and shows respect to our athletes and coaches. That's a breath of fresh air and I certainly welcome it here...

Hey JS, I really enjoy reading your wrestling takes. You say really thoughtful things. You and McScorely have been really solid and enjoyable to read, for me.

I appreciate it. There are a lot of great posters on here. There are also a lot of great ones on HR. On any message board, you'll find a lot of homers and the key is to get a read on who's worth taking seriously and who's just a passionate fan a little out over their skis (which is totally fine imo, part of the fun of sports).

 

[98lberEating2Lunches]

I think a lot of this makes sense. The only thing I'd push back about jr worlds at 50 kg is that argument also applies to DT's much worse result too. Also, a bunch of future world champs started at 50 kg JRs.

But I agree that freestyle isn't that relevant, just one piece of evidence of several. To me, when I think about the match, I think Spencer is a particularly bad match up for that DT. He was extremely technical, but didn't have a ton of horsepower before he grew into his body. Hard to imagine now lol, but when he bumped from 112 to 135, he got caught a couple times by stronger wrestlers. You saw that same dynamic again when he bumped to 157 until he got stronger. Even that second year at 157, there were moments when he struggled to finish shots and got caught underneath if he didn't get to the ankle (DSJ and Bubba).

His overall ability still made him dominant, but Spencer not only has a similar technical prowess, he's also by all accounts freakishly powerful. I think that's the difference in the match.

I agree less physical body growth helped Spencer's continue to dominate his weight.

 

[PASLP2]

I still think it's the greatest lightweight room in the country, but Spencer was going to be incredible no matter where he went. Guys like McDonough, Dennis, Ramos, Clark, and Gilman are better testaments to the room because they all made huge jumps out of high school.

Maybe it was the greatest lightweight room in the country, but currently the best 133 and 141 pounders in the country reside in state college. 😉

 

[dicemen99]

I think a lot of this makes sense. The only thing I'd push back about jr worlds at 50 kg is that argument also applies to DT's much worse result too. Also, a bunch of future world champs started at 50 kg JRs.

Of course you'll push back on this - you're from Illinois 😄

The "bunch of world champs started at 50kg JRs argument to me is the same argument as the bunch of state champs started out at 106/103/98 argument that gets trotted out there all the time. It's an impressive accomplishment - but it's not otherworldly. You're basically competing against your age group peers - still great to win, but not like winning 152 in PA AAA as a freshman. Yea sure, every few years you get a great bracket like the one Cenzo finished 7th or something like, but most of the time you are winning against the same kids you were competing against all through the years, plus a few older kids who are really small but probably not uber-talented, plus a couple of older, really good kids who are probably sucking waaay too much weight and running out of steam at the end of the season. It doesn't make you any less a great wrestler if you're a great wrestler - it just puts the accomplishment - like winning states as a FR - in better context IMO

Same thing with trotting out the JR 50 kg - my guess (not researched) is the future world champs probably didn't have any harder time winning 50 kg JRs than if they wrestled the same weight in Cadets. It's likely that Cadets may be harder at that weight.

 

[js8793]

Of course you'll push back on this - you're from Illinois 😄

The "bunch of world champs started at 50kg JRs argument to me is the same argument as the bunch of state champs started out at 106/103/98 argument that gets trotted out there all the time. It's an impressive accomplishment - but it's not otherworldly. You're basically competing against your age group peers - still great to win, but not like winning 152 in PA AAA as a freshman. Yea sure, every few years you get a great bracket like the one Cenzo finished 7th or something like, but most of the time you are winning against the same kids you were competing against all through the years, plus a few older kids who are really small but probably not uber-talented, plus a couple of older, really good kids who are probably sucking waaay too much weight and running out of steam at the end of the season. It doesn't make you any less a great wrestler if you're a great wrestler - it just puts the accomplishment - like winning states as a FR - in better context IMO

Same thing with trotting out the JR 50 kg - my guess (not researched) is the future world champs probably didn't have any harder time winning 50 kg JRs than if they wrestled the same weight in Cadets.

*Indiana

 

[Str8DBLz]

Kolat hands down

 

[dicemen99]

*Indiana

Thanks for the correction. And the Lee family!!!!

 

[nitlion6]

It's an interesting question. I don't think it's a technical thing. Marinelli doesn't just "push for the stall." He takes a lot of attacks. Ask Cenzo. I see that line a lot on here and I'm completely befuddled by it. Feels like some of you are projecting the prior generation of Iowa guys on him for some reason.

The biggest thing would be mentality. Cael consistently gets his guys to wrestle at their highest level at NCAA's. Marinelli hasn't been bad at NCAA's, but he hasn't raised his level either.

It doesn't help that he's incredibly easy to scout. Post hi-c, Post double, overtie post single. And he'll keep firing even if it's not there to his detriment (see losses to Lewis and Griffith).

Could Cael have added new wrinkles? Maybe, but some guys are just built to do certain things. He's been hitting those same 3 attacks since I first saw him wrestle at Ironman his freshman year of high school. I don't think he'd be a drastically different wrestler at PSU, but maybe performed better when it mattered.

Marinelli generally spends the season pounding on folks with a strong, beat you into submission offensive attack.
QFs at nationals, he starts looking at the ref looking for that necessary stall point. Looking for that stall call is a tell for me. His focus is split, and he becomes concerned about not losing. Self fulfilling prophecy.

 

[dunkej01]

View embedded media

The board....and ...YouTube remember

 

[WildTurk]

Of course you'll push back on this - you're from Illinois 😄

The "bunch of world champs started at 50kg JRs argument to me is the same argument as the bunch of state champs started out at 106/103/98 argument that gets trotted out there all the time. It's an impressive accomplishment - but it's not otherworldly. You're basically competing against your age group peers - still great to win, but not like winning 152 in PA AAA as a freshman. Yea sure, every few years you get a great bracket like the one Cenzo finished 7th or something like, but most of the time you are winning against the same kids you were competing against all through the years, plus a few older kids who are really small but probably not uber-talented, plus a couple of older, really good kids who are probably sucking waaay too much weight and running out of steam at the end of the season. It doesn't make you any less a great wrestler if you're a great wrestler - it just puts the accomplishment - like winning states as a FR - in better context IMO

Same thing with trotting out the JR 50 kg - my guess (not researched) is the future world champs probably didn't have any harder time winning 50 kg JRs than if they wrestled the same weight in Cadets. It's likely that Cadets may be harder at that weight.

Shame on Spencer for not weighing 152 pounds when he trotted out there. He should have been on full feed so his championships meant more.

 

[STAND with PRIDE]

The board....and ...YouTube remember

Looked to me like Kolat could have rode him all night, wonder if he regrets LETTING him up? Not once, but TWICE.

 

[js8793]

Marinelli generally spends the season pounding on folks with a strong, beat you into submission offensive attack.
QFs at nationals, he starts looking at the ref looking for that necessary stall point. Looking for that stall call is a tell for me. His focus is split, and he becomes concerned about not losing. Self fulfilling prophecy.

Quite the psychoanalysis, Dr. Freud. I think I remember having this debate with you a couple years ago and your evidence was that he looked at the ref as Lewis drove him out of bounds to prevent him from escaping. He escaped 15 seconds later. Maybe that was someone else. Either way, I think you're reaching.

Isn't it more likely that he's too predictable and the top guys are good enough to shut down his post attacks until he takes a bad one? He didn't wrestle any different at the national tournament than he did during the regular season. Maybe that's part of his problem. In all 3 of his national tournament losses as the 1 seed, he got taken down off his own attacks.

 

[js8793]

Thanks for the correction. And the Lee family!!!!

Still remember the first time I saw Nick wrestle. It was against Micic in the state semis his freshman year. Whole stadium had their eyes glued on that mat. Micic was on another level, but you knew Nick would be special. Went after him the whole match.

 

[dicemen99]

Shame on Spencer for not weighing 152 pounds when he trotted out there. He should have been on full feed so his championships meant more.

Nice read on my post and thanks for the take.

You jumped the shark long ago, but this hasn't:

#eatitturk

 

[dicemen99]

Still remember the first time I saw Nick wrestle. It was against Micic in the state semis his freshman year. Whole stadium had their eyes glued on that mat. Micic was on another level, but you knew Nick would be special. Went after him the whole match.

That's a great thing about wrestling - those kinds of memories stick with you. I can think of a lot of those that are also great stories- Kyle Snyder, Yianni, Cenzo, DeSanto actually, just a bunch. My favorite first-time impression ever though is Ryan Anderson at 12 years old. Will be hard to top that one, lol. Although the Kyle Snyder one is close.

 

[lionlover]

Spencer was a 3 timer most likely 4 if not for the injury and Taylor was a 4 timer who bumped up 4 weight classes his Senior year .. So this would be a dream matchup to see IMO.

Moreover, in high school, Taylor bumped UP ONE WEIGHT CLASS in the same year just to BEAT THREE TIME STATE CHAMPION COLLIN PALMER when he could have ducked it.
https://intermatwrestle.com/articles/4547/Iowa-State-bound-Taylor-not-afraid-of-challenges?

 

[nitlion6]

Quite the psychoanalysis, Dr. Freud. I think I remember having this debate with you a couple years ago and your evidence was that he looked at the ref as Lewis drove him out of bounds to prevent him from escaping. He escaped 15 seconds later. Maybe that was someone else. Either way, I think you're reaching.

Isn't it more likely that he's too predictable and the top guys are good enough to shut down his post attacks until he takes a bad one? He didn't wrestle any different at the national tournament than he did during the regular season. Maybe that's part of his problem. In all 3 of his national tournament losses as the 1 seed, he got taken down off his own attacks.

You have your take. I have mine.
Small things that are out of the ordinary are tells. The kid just attacks relentlessly and never seems interested in an official's take on things, mostly I assume because he is too busy wrestling. In the last two QF matches, half way into a tight match he is physically looking at the official and yes his body language is asking for "my" stall call.
Yeah, there are other things going on but still.

 

[js8793]

You have your take. I have mine.
Small things that are out of the ordinary are tells. The kid just attacks relentlessly and never seems interested in an official's take on things, mostly I assume because he is too busy wrestling. In the last two QF matches, half way into a tight match he is physically looking at the official and yes his body language is asking for "my" stall call.
Yeah, there are other things going on but still.

Did he look at the official in the Griffith match? I wasn't aware. I'm also pretty sure you could go back and find other instances of him looking at the official if a guy runs him off the mat or backs off in his normal dominant matches.

Obviously, not going to change your mind, but just saying.

 

[nitlion6]

Did he look at the official in the Griffith match? I wasn't aware. I'm also pretty sure you could go back and find other instances of him looking at the official if a guy runs him off the mat or backs off in his normal dominant matches.

Obviously, not going to change your mind, but just saying.

Yes he did. When he did my first thought was "holy shit, he's in trouble."

Whether there are other instances where he has sought official intervention, maybe. I just haven't noticed. To me, he always wrestles with a high level of certainty and focus that he doesn't have time to waste pleading with an official for a point. I have noticed two exceptions.