No, it is a great high school accomplishment, but not one that would override much greater accomplishments like 3 age level world titles.
Lee VS. Taylor - Debate
- Thread starter PSU_522
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No cobwebs to shake. Spencer Lee wrestles where Spencer Lee wants. Lee couldn't beat Fix at Cadets. How was he going to beat Fix and Micic at Jr trials? Answer. Move down a weight. The following year Lee also cut a ton to 50kg. Why? Daton Fix was at his weight again.
The OP didnt specify the style.
Would you argue that DT beats Lee in a FS match in HS?
I don't recall Taylor wrestling as much freestyle in HS, so the edge probably goes to Lee. (Or my memory is faulty, never rule that out.)
But it's not that cut and dried -- styles matter. Freestyle Lee is a JEDI in 2 positions: takedown, ankle lace, TF.
But that other JEDI in 2 positions lost to an opponent with a good game plan (plus the average official, long bus ride, and touch of the flu).
Lee does not score freestyle counter exposure points -- he doesn't chest wrap like the Cornell guys, doesn't throw, etc. So his defense wouldn't have deterred Taylor's offense.
So ultimately it would've come down to who was better on feet. And I suspect Lee's throw-bys wouldn't have worked on Taylor -- he'd have to actually shoot.
Honest question, have you ever watched Spencer Lee wrestle?
For one, he's got an elite gut on top of his lace.
He's a great upper body thrower. His parents were elite judokas. Just because he never has to use it, doesn't mean he can't. Look at his big tens match against Rayvon Foley his freshman year. Bombed him with a double overs inside reap in the first 10 seconds.
With the counter exposures, I've only seen one guy successfully attack his legs his entire freestyle career and that was Arujau with a really deep double with no chance to scramble. You can't score counter exposures if nobody is on your legs.
As to "he'd have to actually shoot," maybe one of the dumbest things I've seen on here. He's one of the highest volume leg attackers in the country.
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We’re like 8 posts away from being told one of the top 3 wrestlers in the world and prohibitive favorite to win Olympic gold couldn’t carry Spencer Lee’s jock.
^^ This post is chock full of projecting Spencer Lee's Iowa career onto his HS career.
But carry on.
You could admit you said something silly.
"Spencer Lee doesn't attack legs" is incredible lol. He literally lost to Fix because he wouldn't stop attacking legs with the lead.
Just clarifying.
DT lost decisively to Cyler in a intra squad scrimmage. In the NLO Cyler won by a point when the referee did not award DT the 2 for last second winning TD.
Bubba beat DT 4-3 in I think it was the ESO. Hardly getting beat solidly.
Correct. And he was scored on off his own leg attacks, which el jefe says he didn't have.
Right. He got better after time in the PSU room, which is my whole point.
Spencer Lee wasn't getting manhandled by mid-to-low AA's when he came in. He beat a returning national champ in his 4th career appearance.
Ironically, most of you are projecting DT's college career onto his high school career, like what @El-Jefe said I was doing with Spencer.
Zain was more college ready than DT. DT was still growing into his body and needed a year to develop man strength.
Maybe by saying Spencer didnt have leg attacks Jefe was really saying those leg attacks werent that great since he was being scored on when he went to them ..
No that wasn't what he was saying lol. Getting hip tipped in one scramble = "bad leg attacks" is absurd.
Y'all can cope all you want because Spencer broke your hearts and left the state, but here's the problem with your argument. It's an admission that the Brands bros did more with Spencer than Cael did with his star protege, which I don't think is true.
If you have it your way, the Brands bros took Spencer to another level after a month of training. If DT was a better high school wrestler, what's Cael's excuse for not getting him to Spencer's level of college success?
Spencer didnt break shit. Well to me anyway. Fortunately we live in a state where the next legends are a class or two behind the ones leaving. That and Cael gets the best guys from all over the country not just Pa anyway. I was somewhat concerned Spencer could influence a bunch of Pa studs to head to Iowa the last few years but that never happened. And now you have this Bassett kid coming up through the ranks. If I was an Iowa fan, I'd be praying this kid signs with them one day or doesnt pan out because in my opinion, hes gonna negate any PA recruiting bounce Iowa may have gained by getting Spencer. Which already in my opinion was quite minimal...
Why are you assuming I think Taylor was a better HS wrestler? In my opinion Spencer was better and by a good bit.
But if any of this is a reflection on Caels coaching ability, maybe he wasnt the same coach back then. Not as refined as the one that developed a freshman to knock off an 85th year senior you all guaranteed would win the National Championship this past season.
Now it's the end of thread...
What are you basing "Spencer's level" on?
Taylor lost 3 times in college. Two of those were one point losses to Dake. Spencer has lost 5 times in college. None were to anyone even close to Dake's level.
While in college, Taylor and Spencer both lost 5 referee'd matches. If you don't count Taylor's true freshman year losses, why would you count Spencer's?
Spencer has one more title with still another year to go. He's undefeated on the sport's biggest stage. PSU fans of all people should understand the importance on winning when it matters. You're the kings of it. DT couldn't get it done when it mattered twice. That's what I'm basing it on.
Fun topic!
You've already admitted you think Spencer was better, so that was the end of the thread.
I'm pretty sure Cael was the same coach he was back then that he is now. The best in the business. The work he did with DT speaks for itself.
Oh. I don't simply look to how many championships (or any singular thing) someone won when considering someone's "level".
If Spencer somehow loses at NCAA's this year, would you say he wasn't on Logan Steiber's level? I certainly wouldn't.
You sure keep coming for being an Iowa fan.
Making some good arguments, I will say that.
If Marinelli wrestled for Cael and was coached to score versus push for the stall, how many national championships do you figure Marinelli would have by now?
Wouldnt even know how to begin to answer that question to be honest. Now do I think he would have been a better wrestler? Well yes... I think he would OF...
Wait ....I thought TnT and the greatest light weight room in the wOrLd made him who he is.
This thread is triggering anyone who texts Spencer when they are ovulating
Jumping in here but IMO
IMO there's a whole lot of misconception about Spencer on this thread - mostly, from non-PA people. I first saw him when he was in 6th grade and he certainly was an all-timer in PA. But there have been a few all-timers here. Spencer's domination of really, really good wrestlers is what has always caused one to go "wow." But - and this is not a knock against him at all, you can look at a lot of the all-timers and say the same - when he runs up against other generational guys he can look mortal. HS and College. And if you're good enough to weather one of the greatest early storms of all time - you can beat him, but you've got to be an ultra-talent to do that. He can lose like anyone else.
What makes people think his level is different is what he does to the 1B guys. He just destroys them. And quickly. It just impresses the hell out of everyone - and rightly so, as it's unique. But DT kind of did that as well - albeit in college.
I'm not familiar enough with DT's HS career to pass judgment on DT vs. Spencer in HS in FOLKSTYLE (which is what IMO we should be talking about). But I am familiar with other PA guys who were dominant in HS. You could argue a guy like Chris Kwortnik had about (maybe not, but close and I'm making a point) as dominant HS career as Spencer in terms of folkstyle.
And don't give me the JR worlds as evidence - pointing to the IL guy now, lol. That's totally apples and oranges and IMO his JR world title at 50kg or whatever it was is less impressive than a Cadet world title (now) at a more contested weight. It's like Fargo JR 100 or 106 or whatever that is. Don't take that as a slight at his freestyle prowess, either. My guess is he will be a real international talent for the US (although we've yet to really see that at the SR level), it's just pointing out that JR world lightweight titles shouldn't come into play at all in who would win a HS folkstyle match between the two. Just my 2 cents.
125. I don't think Spencer's level is much different than DT's in college.
IMO there's a whole lot of misconception about Spencer on this thread - mostly, from non-PA people. I first saw him when he was in 6th grade and he certainly was an all-timer in PA. But there have been a few all-timers here. Spencer's domination of really, really good wrestlers is what has always caused one to go "wow." But - and this is not a knock against him at all, you can look at a lot of the all-timers and say the same - when he runs up against other generational guys he can look mortal. HS and College. And if you're good enough to weather one of the greatest early storms of all time - you can beat him, but you've got to be an ultra-talent to do that. He can lose like anyone else.
What makes people think his level is different is what he does to the 1B guys. He just destroys them. And quickly. It just impresses the hell out of everyone - and rightly so, as it's unique. But DT kind of did that as well - albeit in college.
I'm not familiar enough with DT's HS career to pass judgment on DT vs. Spencer in HS in FOLKSTYLE (which is what IMO we should be talking about). But I am familiar with other PA guys who were dominant in HS. You could argue a guy like Chris Kwortnik had about (maybe not, but close and I'm making a point) as dominant HS career as Spencer in terms of folkstyle.
And don't give me the JR worlds as evidence - pointing to the IL guy now, lol. That's totally apples and oranges and IMO his JR world title at 50kg or whatever it was is less impressive than a Cadet world title (now) at a more contested weight. It's like Fargo JR 100 or 106 or whatever that is. Don't take that as a slight at his freestyle prowess, either. My guess is he will be a real international talent for the US (although we've yet to really see that at the SR level), it's just pointing out that JR world lightweight titles shouldn't come into play at all in who would win a HS folkstyle match between the two. Just my 2 cents.
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It's an interesting question. I don't think it's a technical thing. Marinelli doesn't just "push for the stall." He takes a lot of attacks. Ask Cenzo. I see that line a lot on here and I'm completely befuddled by it. Feels like some of you are projecting the prior generation of Iowa guys on him for some reason.
The biggest thing would be mentality. Cael consistently gets his guys to wrestle at their highest level at NCAA's. Marinelli hasn't been bad at NCAA's, but he hasn't raised his level either.
It doesn't help that he's incredibly easy to scout. Post hi-c, Post double, overtie post single. And he'll keep firing even if it's not there to his detriment (see losses to Lewis and Griffith).
Could Cael have added new wrinkles? Maybe, but some guys are just built to do certain things. He's been hitting those same 3 attacks since I first saw him wrestle at Ironman his freshman year of high school. I don't think he'd be a drastically different wrestler at PSU, but maybe performed better when it mattered.
I still think it's the greatest lightweight room in the country, but Spencer was going to be incredible no matter where he went. Guys like McDonough, Dennis, Ramos, Clark, and Gilman are better testaments to the room because they all made huge jumps out of high school.
I agree with everything you said. I think Alex attack rate is quite high. As for Cael, I have no idea if I'm correct or not but I just think his biggest secret to the post season is getting his guys comfortable and sensing them out there confident but most of all without fear of losing. I honestly feel he pounds it into their heads that it's a game, it's to be fun and theres alot more important things in life that winning a wrestling match, championship or tournament. That it's small potatoes in the big scheme of things. I mean it obviously huge to these athletes but I think Cael put them in a state of mind that allows them to be loose and wrestle without fear of being beaten.
This is my sense too, but sooooo much easier said than done. Very impressive.
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