There needs to be a 3 point reversal

[mvattivo]

So, after giving the 3 point takedown some time, I'm ok with it, IF one change is made. A reversal needs to also be worth 3 points. Having both at 3 points successfully de-values the escape, which I am fine with.

First, the ratio of escapes to reversals is crazy. It isn't easy to get a reversal. Also, at the high D1 level, most reversals end up being similar to takedowns. The top wrestler realizes he's in danger and tries to bail to give up the escape, and the bottom wrestler ends up in a position where he is finishing a takedown. David Taylor was the best I remember at securing reversals over escapes. The reward for reversals should be equal to that of takedowns.

Currently, I don't like that a guy gets a takedown and leads 3-0, gives up a reversal to make it 3-2, then gets an escape to lead 4-2. The score does not justify the action. It should be 4-3.

Thoughts?

 

[PSU Mike]

From a purely objective POV, change in control from one wrestler to the other (RV) would seem to be a bigger change than going from neither having control (neutral) to one gaining it (TD). It never really made sense to me that a reversal scored less than an escape and subsequent TD, although others will argue that you accomplished 2 distinct feats with the latter.

 

[mcpat]

I think it’s an interesting point. You can earn 3 from neutral, 3 or 4 from top, but only 2 from bottom.

 

[Sleepylion]

Make TDs 2 and call stalling more aggressively.
Not a bad idea to make a reversal 3 if TDs are 3.

It seems like this is a solution to a problem of "their" own creation.

I do not like the idea of criteria either, but if "they" wanted to value TDs just make most TDs in a match worth 1 point. So, at the end of the match the wrestler with the most TDs gets 1 point, just like the riding time point. This would eliminate the 7 TD tech and the 4-2 situation the OP described.

 

[a_mshaffer]

So, after giving the 3 point takedown some time, I'm ok with it, IF one change is made. A reversal needs to also be worth 3 points. Having both at 3 points successfully de-values the escape, which I am fine with.

First, the ratio of escapes to reversals is crazy. It isn't easy to get a reversal. Also, at the high D1 level, most reversals end up being similar to takedowns. The top wrestler realizes he's in danger and tries to bail to give up the escape, and the bottom wrestler ends up in a position where he is finishing a takedown. David Taylor was the best I remember at securing reversals over escapes. The reward for reversals should be equal to that of takedowns.

Currently, I don't like that a guy gets a takedown and leads 3-0, gives up a reversal to make it 3-2, then gets an escape to lead 4-2. The score does not justify the action. It should be 4-3.

Thoughts?

agree, posted the same thought a few days ago in another thread!

 

[tullfan68]

So, after giving the 3 point takedown some time, I'm ok with it, IF one change is made. A reversal needs to also be worth 3 points. Having both at 3 points successfully de-values the escape, which I am fine with.

First, the ratio of escapes to reversals is crazy. It isn't easy to get a reversal. Also, at the high D1 level, most reversals end up being similar to takedowns. The top wrestler realizes he's in danger and tries to bail to give up the escape, and the bottom wrestler ends up in a position where he is finishing a takedown. David Taylor was the best I remember at securing reversals over escapes. The reward for reversals should be equal to that of takedowns.

Currently, I don't like that a guy gets a takedown and leads 3-0, gives up a reversal to make it 3-2, then gets an escape to lead 4-2. The score does not justify the action. It should be 4-3.

Thoughts?

that would just be giving PSU wrestlers more points!!

 

[NittanyChris]

I’m a huge 3 point TD proponent and I have to agree with you. I think the old ratio of 2:1 for a TD:escape was way off and they correctly remedied that. That said, a reversal rerequires much more skill and effort and should be equal to a TD.

 

[El-Jefe]

Make TDs 2 and call stalling more aggressively.
Not a bad idea to make a reversal 3 if TDs are 3.

It seems like this is a solution to a problem of "their" own creation.

I do not like the idea of criteria wither, but if "they" wanted to value TDs just make most TDs in a match worth 1 point. So, at the end of the match the wrestler with the most TDs gets 1 point, just like the riding time point. This would eliminate the 7 TD tech and the 4-2 situation the OP described.

How many decades have wrestling fans complained about lack of stalling calls?

And how many more decades do we wait?

That's the reason for a lot of rules we don't like.

 

[El-Jefe]

So, after giving the 3 point takedown some time, I'm ok with it, IF one change is made. A reversal needs to also be worth 3 points. Having both at 3 points successfully de-values the escape, which I am fine with.

First, the ratio of escapes to reversals is crazy. It isn't easy to get a reversal. Also, at the high D1 level, most reversals end up being similar to takedowns. The top wrestler realizes he's in danger and tries to bail to give up the escape, and the bottom wrestler ends up in a position where he is finishing a takedown. David Taylor was the best I remember at securing reversals over escapes. The reward for reversals should be equal to that of takedowns.

Currently, I don't like that a guy gets a takedown and leads 3-0, gives up a reversal to make it 3-2, then gets an escape to lead 4-2. The score does not justify the action. It should be 4-3.

Thoughts?

Unintended consequence: more guys wasting full periods chasing a reversal when an escape is readily available.

 

[psumacw]

take down -> reversal -> escape has the same net score as simply take down -> escape (+2 for the first wrestler with current scoring, +1 last year) and that doesn't seem right to me. i feel like the first sequence shows the wrestlers are closer in skill level than just a take down and escape, so the point differential should be the smallest increment, i.e. 1 point, for that sequence and reversal would need to be worth 3 for that to happen.

pivoting a little, i also have a problem with letting 1 point matches become major decisions in the last 10 seconds. if the trailing wrestler takes a desperation shot, gives up the takedown and 4 swipes, then that 1 point margin becomes 8. of course the retort can always be 'sucks to suck. get better.' but i think calling that a MD doesn't tell the full story.

 

[PAwrestling]

Unintended consequence: more guys wasting full periods chasing a reversal when an escape is readily available.

That's not an unintended consequence. That would just be stupid wrestling.

 

[HikeNatParks]

So, after giving the 3 point takedown some time, I'm ok with it, IF one change is made. A reversal needs to also be worth 3 points. Having both at 3 points successfully de-values the escape, which I am fine with.

First, the ratio of escapes to reversals is crazy. It isn't easy to get a reversal. Also, at the high D1 level, most reversals end up being similar to takedowns. The top wrestler realizes he's in danger and tries to bail to give up the escape, and the bottom wrestler ends up in a position where he is finishing a takedown. David Taylor was the best I remember at securing reversals over escapes. The reward for reversals should be equal to that of takedowns.

Currently, I don't like that a guy gets a takedown and leads 3-0, gives up a reversal to make it 3-2, then gets an escape to lead 4-2. The score does not justify the action. It should be 4-3.

Thoughts?

Love the logic. Isn't a reversal actually a takedown from a far worse starting position (under opponent's control)? Seems like even if you don't consider it a combined "escape+TD" and make it 4, it certainly deserves to be 3.

 

[El-Jefe]

That's not an unintended consequence. That would just be stupid wrestling.

It's stupid wrestling now but still happens. And incentives matter.

 

[phelpsp]

Agree 100%, I have said this repeatedly!

 

[baccafarmer]

So, after giving the 3 point takedown some time, I'm ok with it, IF one change is made. A reversal needs to also be worth 3 points. Having both at 3 points successfully de-values the escape, which I am fine with.

First, the ratio of escapes to reversals is crazy. It isn't easy to get a reversal. Also, at the high D1 level, most reversals end up being similar to takedowns. The top wrestler realizes he's in danger and tries to bail to give up the escape, and the bottom wrestler ends up in a position where he is finishing a takedown. David Taylor was the best I remember at securing reversals over escapes. The reward for reversals should be equal to that of takedowns.

Currently, I don't like that a guy gets a takedown and leads 3-0, gives up a reversal to make it 3-2, then gets an escape to lead 4-2. The score does not justify the action. It should be 4-3.

Thoughts?

Best bet is that the new 3 point takedown will elicit a cascade of additional changes …. of which 3 point reversals will be the first. It’s all about the ratios. They want more “O” …. the committee gonna get it.

 

[hlstone]

That's not an unintended consequence. That would just be stupid wrestling.

Not if one isn't as good as the opponent on the feet.

I always hit switches for reversals. I wanted to be on top looking for cradles. My neutral game was average at best.

 

[PAwrestling]

It's stupid wrestling now but still happens. And incentives matter.

I despise the 3 point takedown so I hope everyone wrestlers stupidly until it goes back to 2 lol

 

[PAwrestling]

Not if one isn't as good as the opponent on the feet.

I always hit switches for reversals. I wanted to be on top looking for cradles. My neutral game was average at best.

Then your strategy wouldn't change whether a reversal is 2 points or 3, however I do agree with u that if a takedown is 3, a reversal should be 3. How bout we just make them both 2 again lol.

 

[hlstone]

Then your strategy wouldn't change whether a reversal is 2 points or 3, however I do agree with u that if a takedown is 3, a reversal should be 3. How bout we just make them both 2 again lol.

You are correct that my strategy would not have changed.

Man, I was terrible on my feet. 🤣

 

[Pitchfork Rebel]

The three point takedown completely disorders scoring. A reversal is more difficult to execute, but now has less value.

-Pitchfork Rebel, August 8 2023.

 

[Pitchfork Rebel]

You are correct that my strategy would not have changed.

Man, I was terrible on my feet. 🤣

It could have been worse; you could have been a "chubby" but undersized HWT who was terrible in all positions.

 

[GogglesPaizano]

Now that riding can be penalized without attempting to turn, and there is going to be more catch and release, I lobby that riding time be increased to 2 points. Soon to be a lost and difficult skill to master.

I remain committed to maintaining the tradition of folk, with an eye on mastering all three positions and being rewarded to do so.

 

[PAHURDLER]

Unintended consequence: more guys wasting full periods chasing a reversal when an escape is readily available.

That’s why we need to make escapes worth 2 points now!

 

[Psubiomed]

You are correct that my strategy would not have changed.

Man, I was terrible on my feet. 🤣

Me too. Every damn year I would get to the area junior Olympics and every year another different Philipsburg kid would conduct a takedown clinic on me 😂😂😂... Finally around 8th grade I said f it, and I figured out how to pin them in the second period 😂😂😂

 

[LongJakk]

I think a lot of reversals come from top guy trying to tilt and pin. Making a reversal 3 would be a disincentive to tilting.

 

[hlstone]

I think a lot of reversals come from top guy trying to tilt and pin. Making a reversal 3 would be a disincentive to tilting.

Not in my experience.

 

[Sleepylion]

That’s why we need to make escapes worth 2 points now!

no, 1.5 points. 😉

 

[pawrestlersintn]

The 3 point take down has done nothing but put lipstick on a perceived pig. The exciting wrestlers are still the exciting wrestlers. The one take down artists are still the 1 take down artists. Wrestlers that couldn't get a comeback take down when it was worth 2 points are still the same wrestlers that can't get come back take Downs when they're worth 3 points.

Actually, I'll take back my first sentence. it put lipstick on her, but removed all of the other make up at the same time.

 

[HikeNatParks]

The wrestling gods are angry. Rule makers have always ignored the ‘escape’ imbedded in every reversal. Now, they dare say gaining control from neutral (a TD) is worth more than gaining it from a negative position (under other guy’s control)? Please. It’s illogical. At minimum, reversal value should equal TD, but I go further. Given the negative starting point, I see it as a half-point ‘higher’ move. I offer this scenario, A wrestling B:
Period 1, A takes down B. Mid-period, B reverses A.
Period 2, A rides B the entire period.
Period 3, B rides A the entire period, negating riding time.
Under old rules, this goes to overtime, tied at 2.
Under new rules, A wins 3-2.
Under correct rules (mine, ha), B wins 3.5-3.0 because the control he gained came from a negative starting point, not the easier neutral one. In other words, the reversal’s imbedded escape has value. I’m convinced the wrestling gods are with me. The NCAA, not so much.

 

[Sleepylion]

The 3 point take down has done nothing but put lipstick on a perceived pig. The exciting wrestlers are still the exciting wrestlers. The one take down artists are still the 1 take down artists. Wrestlers that couldn't get a comeback take down when it was worth 2 points are still the same wrestlers that can't get come back take Downs when they're worth 3 points.

Actually, I'll take back my first sentence. it put lipstick on her, but removed all of the other make up at the same time.

to your point, I took the PSU Lehigh match and looked at would have been with a 2 point TD. This isn't perfect because the score influences the action, but it really did not make for closer/better matches or more aggressive neutral action.

PSU-LU
125:
1-0 esc
1-1 esc
1-4 td final
1-3 if 2pt td

133:
0-0stl#1
1-0 esc
1-3 td
2-3 esc
2-6 td
3-6stl#2
3-4 if 2pt td

141:
3-0 td
3-1 esc
3-4 td
4-4 esc
5-4 esc
8-4 td
8-5 esc
11-5 td
11-6 esc
14-6 td
15-6 rt
12-5 if 2pt td

149:
0-3 td
1-3 esc
4-3 td
4-4 esc
4-5 esc
5-5 esc
8-5 td
8stl#1 -5
8-6 esc
11-6 td
12-6 rt
9-5 if 2pt td

157:
3-0 td
4-0 esc
7-0 td
7-1 esc
10-1 td
10-1stl#1
13-1 td
13-2 esc
14-2stl#2
17-2 td tech fall
12-2 if 2pt td*
*there was still time on the match clock when tech fall was completed.

165:
3-0 td
3-1 esc
6-1 td
6-2 esc
9-2 td
Fall
6-2 if 2pt td**
**it was a fall final points did not impact result.

174:
3-0 td
3-2 rev
4-2 esc
5-2 esc
8-2 td
8-2stl#1
11-2 td
11-3 esc
14-3 td
14-4 esc
15-4stl#2
18-4 td
19-4 rtp
14-4 if 2pt td***
*** tech fall awarded at end of regulation, would have been a major decision.

197:
0-3 td
1-3 esc
1-4 esc
1-7 td
2-7 esc
2-10 td
3-10 esc
4-10 esc
4-13 td
5-13 esc
5-16 td
6-16 esc
6-19 td
6-20 rtp
6-14 if 2pt td

HWT:
3-0 td
3-1 esc
4-1 esc
7-1 td
10-1 td
11-1 rtp
8-1 if 2pt td

This is just one match and not much of a data set, but I'm not sure what the change accomplished.

 

[District four]

The 3 point take down has done nothing but put lipstick on a perceived pig. The exciting wrestlers are still the exciting wrestlers. The one take down artists are still the 1 take down artists. Wrestlers that couldn't get a comeback take down when it was worth 2 points are still the same wrestlers that can't get come back take Downs when they're worth 3 points.

Actually, I'll take back my first sentence. it put lipstick on her, but removed all of the other make up at the same time.

 

[pawrestlersintn]

to your point, I took the PSU Lehigh match and looked at would have been with a 2 point TD. This isn't perfect because the score influences the action, but it really did not make for closer/better matches or more aggressive neutral action.

PSU-LU
125:
1-0 esc
1-1 esc
1-4 td final
1-3 if 2pt td

133:
0-0stl#1
1-0 esc
1-3 td
2-3 esc
2-6 td
3-6stl#2
3-4 if 2pt td

141:
3-0 td
3-1 esc
3-4 td
4-4 esc
5-4 esc
8-4 td
8-5 esc
11-5 td
11-6 esc
14-6 td
15-6 rt
12-5 if 2pt td

149:
0-3 td
1-3 esc
4-3 td
4-4 esc
4-5 esc
5-5 esc
8-5 td
8stl#1 -5
8-6 esc
11-6 td
12-6 rt
9-5 if 2pt td

157:
3-0 td
4-0 esc
7-0 td
7-1 esc
10-1 td
10-1stl#1
13-1 td
13-2 esc
14-2stl#2
17-2 td tech fall
12-2 if 2pt td*
*there was still time on the match clock when tech fall was completed.

165:
3-0 td
3-1 esc
6-1 td
6-2 esc
9-2 td
Fall
6-2 if 2pt td**
**it was a fall final points did not impact result.

174:
3-0 td
3-2 rev
4-2 esc
5-2 esc
8-2 td
8-2stl#1
11-2 td
11-3 esc
14-3 td
14-4 esc
15-4stl#2
18-4 td
19-4 rtp
14-4 if 2pt td***
*** tech fall awarded at end of regulation, would have been a major decision.

197:
0-3 td
1-3 esc
1-4 esc
1-7 td
2-7 esc
2-10 td
3-10 esc
4-10 esc
4-13 td
5-13 esc
5-16 td
6-16 esc
6-19 td
6-20 rtp
6-14 if 2pt td

HWT:
3-0 td
3-1 esc
4-1 esc
7-1 td
10-1 td
11-1 rtp
8-1 if 2pt td

This is just one match and not much of a data set, but I'm not sure what the change accomplished.

We've seen enough wrestling already this season to know that the 3-point takedown is a farce.

 

[82bordeaux]

You are correct that my strategy would not have changed.

Man, I was terrible on my feet. 🤣

 

[WexfordWarrior]

 

[GogglesPaizano]

We've seen enough wrestling already this season to know that the 3-point takedown is a farce.

'If' our team remains healthy, and we happen to break the 170 team point record, it will no doubt (IMO) be aided by and a direct result of the 3 point TD.

We can't get there without having a great tourney with respect to bonus points. It's quite clear that Tech Falls are more within reach than before. Certainly major decisions are now pretty common place, but I don't believe you get extra points at nationals from majors.

Ignoring bonus, the 3 pointer also brings some late 3rd period come from behind matches back into reality. PSU has better fundamentals and better conditioning than the rest, hence, although this can cut both ways, on balance I expect the net result there to be positive for PSU. Winning maybe 1-2 matches we otherwise may not have.

We will see, but even a couple more points at nationals may make the difference. I tend to think the rule makers in retrospect will not necessarily like seeing PSU distance themselves even further from the pack.

GIA will forever howl in disgust and apply an asterisk (along side the asterisk on their NC that lacked the Ivy teams? Ooops). That should be worth it's weight in gold.

All this aside, I am ok with the change, but agree a reversal should also be 3 points.

 

[El-Jefe]

to your point, I took the PSU Lehigh match and looked at would have been with a 2 point TD. This isn't perfect because the score influences the action, but it really did not make for closer/better matches or more aggressive neutral action.

PSU-LU
125:
1-0 esc
1-1 esc
1-4 td final
1-3 if 2pt td

133:
0-0stl#1
1-0 esc
1-3 td
2-3 esc
2-6 td
3-6stl#2
3-4 if 2pt td

141:
3-0 td
3-1 esc
3-4 td
4-4 esc
5-4 esc
8-4 td
8-5 esc
11-5 td
11-6 esc
14-6 td
15-6 rt
12-5 if 2pt td

149:
0-3 td
1-3 esc
4-3 td
4-4 esc
4-5 esc
5-5 esc
8-5 td
8stl#1 -5
8-6 esc
11-6 td
12-6 rt
9-5 if 2pt td

157:
3-0 td
4-0 esc
7-0 td
7-1 esc
10-1 td
10-1stl#1
13-1 td
13-2 esc
14-2stl#2
17-2 td tech fall
12-2 if 2pt td*
*there was still time on the match clock when tech fall was completed.

165:
3-0 td
3-1 esc
6-1 td
6-2 esc
9-2 td
Fall
6-2 if 2pt td**
**it was a fall final points did not impact result.

174:
3-0 td
3-2 rev
4-2 esc
5-2 esc
8-2 td
8-2stl#1
11-2 td
11-3 esc
14-3 td
14-4 esc
15-4stl#2
18-4 td
19-4 rtp
14-4 if 2pt td***
*** tech fall awarded at end of regulation, would have been a major decision.

197:
0-3 td
1-3 esc
1-4 esc
1-7 td
2-7 esc
2-10 td
3-10 esc
4-10 esc
4-13 td
5-13 esc
5-16 td
6-16 esc
6-19 td
6-20 rtp
6-14 if 2pt td

HWT:
3-0 td
3-1 esc
4-1 esc
7-1 td
10-1 td
11-1 rtp
8-1 if 2pt td

This is just one match and not much of a data set, but I'm not sure what the change accomplished.

Also, if you measure the wrong thing, you won't get the right answer.

A better metric would be attacks per minute of neutral wrestling, measured over the entire season if possible, or at least over a bigger sample such as nationals or CKLV, etc.

 

[psumacw]

i feel like i'm actually seeing more stalling at the end of matches with the 3 point takedown. it's causing leads to be larger and thus the leading wrestler is more willing to give up penalty points for stalling rather than engage towards the end of the match.

i know wrestling is severely lacking in data but i'd be interested to know if stall calls are higher this year than before, and specifically for the wrestler that is leading.

 

[Bosox2004]

'If' our team remains healthy, and we happen to break the 170 team point record, it will no doubt (IMO) be aided by and a direct result of the 3 point TD.

We can't get there without having a great tourney with respect to bonus points. It's quite clear that Tech Falls are more within reach than before. Certainly major decisions are now pretty common place, but I don't believe you get extra points at nationals from majors.

Ignoring bonus, the 3 pointer also brings some late 3rd period come from behind matches back into reality. PSU has better fundamentals and better conditioning than the rest, hence, although this can cut both ways, on balance I expect the net result there to be positive for PSU. Winning maybe 1-2 matches we otherwise may not have.

We will see, but even a couple more points at nationals may make the difference. I tend to think the rule makers in retrospect will not necessarily like seeing PSU distance themselves even further from the pack.

GIA will forever howl in disgust and apply an asterisk (along side the asterisk on their NC that lacked the Ivy teams? Ooops). That should be worth it's weight in gold.

All this aside, I am ok with the change, but agree a reversal should also be 3 points.

I could swear you get a point for a major at nationals. There is zero doubt in my mind the 3 point takedown will lead to more points scored at nationals but I’ve been wrong before lol

The points scored for AA placement are also slightly different than in 1997 . They are a bit higher for a few of the placements.

For kicks , I went thru the brackets for the 97 tournament and somehow come up with 166.5 for Iowa so I’m missing something . Did the same for Penn state I think they scored 40 and I was missing something.

At this point I’m a huge fan of the three point takedown and much appreciate what to me seems like more stall calls on wrestlers not generating action . It’s not perfect but what is.

 

[Bosox2004]

Also, if you measure the wrong thing, you won't get the right answer.

That’s damn funny …. if I take that statement in isolation it just comes across so wrong .

Stats are a funny thing …

 

[Bosox2004]

Serious question for the masses wouldn’t raising the reversal to 3 points than lead to less mat wrestling.

Seems to me you take someone down and now the top wrestler can try things more freely and put himself into more compromising situations especially if once reversed they feel they can easily escape.