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Super Bowl LV (Bucs - Chiefs) game thread

And I’ll bet there’s a bunch of guys today that throw harder than Koufax including guys in the minors. Better athletes, better coaching, better technique nowadays. When I played, your fast ball was your fast ball, it was pretty much what you were born with. These days through training and coaching they can add a lot of velocity onto your fastball. Athletes of each generation get better....bigger, stronger, faster.

Ya. And the most COMPLETE games any of those ACTIVE "better athletes" can muster in their careers is 26. I believe that's Jason Verlander. Koufax had 137.

I remember someone said "Trying to hit Koufax is like drinking coffee with a fork". That always cracked me up.
: ^ )
 
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Good point. Mahomes never had a chance. The Chief's OL didn't seem that bad against Buffalo. It was horrific last night. I wonder what was the difference. Is the Tampa Bay defensive line that good? I kept watching Stefen Wisniewski. As best I could tell he did do a bad job. The Chief's tackles were the weak point.
Their LT went down in the third of fourth quarter against the Bills. They started Wiz and moved three players on the OL around. They also had a couple of guys opt out for COVID reasons before the season started.

I didn't see them give the LT any help at all...no chipping, no RB to help out. Both tackles got schooled and I'll be surprised if they are in the NFL next year.
 
Definitely possible and no doubt he was an all time great. But his athletic ability you described is pretty common in today’s athletes.
I'm not so sure about that. I don't think Koufax's athletic ability is common today. Supposedly his body structure was unique. I don't know of many current baseball players who also received basketball scholarship offers to say Duke or Kentucky. There isn't much sense debating this because we will never know how Koufax would have fared if he pitched now. I saw Koufax pitch against the Mets in Shea Stadium. I will never forget what I saw. His stuff was unbelievable. His curve ball was what we called a "drop" back then. It came to the plate not much slower than his fast ball and about head high. It started to break straight down right before it got to the plate and often bounced to the catcher.
 
Ya. And the most COMPLETE games any of those ACTIVE "better athletes" can muster in their careers is 26. I believe that's Jason Verlander. Koufax had 137.

I remember someone said "Trying to hit Koufax is like trying to drink coffee with a fork". That always cracked me up. : ^ )
Pitchers don’t get the chance to have complete games any more and Koufax wouldn’t either. They would try to save his arm as long as possible. It’s a different game....same reason no one will ever catch Cy Young’s win total...it’s not because Cy Young was a better athlete.
 
Their LT went down in the third of fourth quarter against the Bills. They started Wiz and moved three players on the OL around. They also had a couple of guys opt out for COVID reasons before the season started.

I didn't see them give the LT any help at all...no chipping, no RB to help out. Both tackles got schooled and I'll be surprised if they are in the NFL next year.
Interesting. That kind of explains the way the game played out. I'm surprised more betters didn't realize that the Chiefs were domed and bet big on Tampa.
 
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I'm not so sure about that. I don't think Koufax's athletic ability is common today. Supposedly his body structure was unique. I don't know of many current baseball players who also received basketball scholarship offers to say Duke or Kentucky. There isn't much sense debating this because we will never know how Koufax would have fared if he pitched now. I saw Koufax pitch against the Mets in Shea Stadium. I will never forget what I saw. His stuff was unbelievable. His curve ball was what we called a "drop" back then. It came to the plate not much slower than his fast ball and about head high. It started to break straight down right before it got to the plate and often bounced to the catcher.
I’m quite certain Koufax and a host of other old time pitchers would still be good to great today. But I’m equally as certain that many of today’s pitchers would have been great back in Koufax’s day. There are better athletes today in all sports.
 
I'm not so sure about that. I don't think Koufax's athletic ability is common today. Supposedly his body structure was unique. I don't know of many current baseball players who also received basketball scholarship offers to say Duke or Kentucky. There isn't much sense debating this because we will never know how Koufax would have fared if he pitched now. I saw Koufax pitch against the Mets in Shea Stadium. I will never forget what I saw. His stuff was unbelievable. His curve ball was what we called a "drop" back then. It came to the plate not much slower than his fast ball and about head high. It started to break straight down right before it got to the plate and often bounced to the catcher.
Koufax was fast but his best pitch was his curve ball. One of the best curves ever. Also great control.
 
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Pitchers don’t get the chance to have complete games any more and Koufax wouldn’t either. They would try to save his arm as long as possible. It’s a different game....same reason no one will ever catch Cy Young’s win total...it’s not because Cy Young was a better athlete.

Yep. As you say. "It's a different game". That's been my point the whole way through this thread. That's why it's impossible to compare athletes across generations.
 
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Good point. Mahomes never had a chance. The Chief's OL didn't seem that bad against Buffalo. It was horrific last night. I wonder what was the difference. Is the Tampa Bay defensive line that good? I kept watching Stefen Wisniewski. As best I could tell he did do a bad job. The Chief's tackles were the weak point.


The difference was Brady. He prepared the Bucs defense, and just his being on the sideline raised their level of play.
 
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Also, I've never seen Kelce have a worse game. I counted three drops, two in critical situations. Plus he had two falls/slips. And the punter, jeesh! Two shanks at critical times (and a dropped snap which ended up not mattering).
 
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Koufax was fast but his best pitch was his curve ball. One of the best curves ever. Also great control.

Yep. Curveball was definitely something unworldly. Probably the best ever. Combine all that with his change up, and the guy was next to unhittable.
 
Yep. As you say. "It's a different game". That's been my point the whole way through this thread. That's why it's impossible to compare athletes across generations.
But you can see that athletes of today are better than in the past. For example, look at Jim Thorpe’s Olympic numbers....he wouldn’t win high school track events these days let alone gold medals. Today’s athletes are bigger, stronger, faster and thirty years from now the athletes will be better than they are now.
 
Koufax was a great pitcher, but he benefited from a higher mound during his career. That really accentuated the curve ball before 1968. Lowering the mound changed how pitchers pitched.
 
I agree it’s the worst way if we were talking one ring or even two....but when you’re at seven with two different teams, it goes beyond the team. I don’t see anyone else that has better physical skills than Brady getting to 10 SB’s and winning 7 of them. At some point people just have to accept the fact he’s the best that ever played.
I'd argue the Patriots probably win more rings with Peyton under center, but we can play woulda coulda shoulda all day. Manning, at his peak, was better than Brady at his by the numbers. Has Brady had the better career? Absolutely. Unfortunately, Manning's body broke down, and it was the ultimate irony that he was carried to his second ring by a strong supporting cast, after so many years with relatively weak teams around him. Bottom line: to me prime Peyton is the best I ever saw do it (and I watched a lot of both guys).
 
I'm sure this was mentioned earlier, but what was Romo thinking about to say Mahomes losing hurts his chances to catch Brady in titles. Who in their right mind thinks that is even remotely possible? With the hard cap what Brady has done was not supposed to happen. With Mahomes contract if he wins two more championships that will be a great accomplishment. For Brady to have 7 just doesn't make sense. In all professional sports how many players have at least 7 championships? Bill Russell comes to mind off the top of my head along with Yogi Berra. I'm sure there's a list available, but it can't be a long list.
 
Penalties11-1204-39

So the chiefs has 11 penalties for 120 yards. IIRC, 15 of the yards against the bucs was late in the game when Winfield taunted a player with ~ 2:30 to go or so. I honestly think KC could have been called for holding on the OL on every single passing play. And on D, KC has gotten away with this all playoffs. I know the Browns really complained about the holding and dirty play by the Chiefs' secondary.
 
I'm sure this was mentioned earlier, but what was Romo thinking about to say Mahomes losing hurts his chances to catch Brady in titles. Who in their right mind thinks that is even remotely possible? With the hard cap what Brady has done was not supposed to happen. With Mahomes contract if he wins two more championships that will be a great accomplishment. For Brady to have 7 just doesn't make sense. In all professional sports how many players have at least 7 championships? Bill Russell comes to mind off the top of my head along with Yogi Berra. I'm sure there's a list available, but it can't be a long list.
 
Koufax was a great pitcher, but he benefited from a higher mound during his career. That really accentuated the curve ball before 1968. Lowering the mound changed how pitchers pitched.
 
How would Brady look behind the Chiefs OL? IMO switch QBs and the results are pretty much the same.
Wow, gotta call that one out. No way Brady wins under all the pressure that Maholmes got. The key to beating Brady his whole career was get great pressure on him. He hates being hit and gets frustrated. But he was always so,good at getting rid of the ball he didnge5 hitboften. But since KC had such a banged up Oline he woulda been hammered.
 
And I’ll bet there’s a bunch of guys today that throw harder than Koufax including guys in the minors. Better athletes, better coaching, better technique nowadays. When I played, your fast ball was your fast ball, it was pretty much what you were born with. These days through training and coaching they can add a lot of velocity onto your fastball. Athletes of each generation get better....bigger, stronger, faster.
You are so right. I was talking with my brother this Weeknd about 90 mph fastballs and college recruiting-----My nephew played last season in a 16u baseball tournament in FL with about 200 travel teams from across the USA. Over 160 pitchers had fastballs over 90 mph. Development of players is insane.
 
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Good point. Mahomes never had a chance. The Chief's OL didn't seem that bad against Buffalo. It was horrific last night. I wonder what was the difference. Is the Tampa Bay defensive line that good? I kept watching Stefen Wisniewski. As best I could tell he did do a bad job. The Chief's tackles were the weak point.
KC’s two starting o tackles were out. They moved a guard to tackle and started Wiz.....who had been cut by three teams this year. O line was in bad shape.
 
The difference was Brady. He prepared the Bucs defense, and just his being on the sideline raised their level of play.
He also promised to hook them up with Gisele's friends with a win. Now he's really got work to do.
 
He also promised to hook them up with Gisele's friends with a win. Now he's really got work to do.


It used to be the star quarterback bought teammates rings, a fancy dinner, or cars. Now he buys them women?
 
Two things:

1. First, let it be known that I despise Brady. That said, if you had to choose one quarterback to win a football game that would save your house from being repossessed, you would absolutely consider Brady. Maybe you’d choose someone else, but every one of you would consider Tom Brady. Is he the greatest quarterback of all time? I have no idea, but the guy keeps winning Super Bowls.

2. Yesterday’s game reminded me of the SB after the 1980 season, when Oakland beat Philadelphia, quite easily. After the game, the Oakland players spoke about Jaworski: “He never quit, he never panicked, his eyes were always downfield looking to make a play.” I thought the same thing about Mahomes in yesterday’s game. He never quit, he kept plays alive with ungodly athleticism, he kept fighting to the end. Wow, what a great, great competitor.
 
Wow, gotta call that one out. No way Brady wins under all the pressure that Maholmes got. The key to beating Brady his whole career was get great pressure on him. He hates being hit and gets frustrated. But he was always so,good at getting rid of the ball he didnge5 hitboften. But since KC had such a banged up Oline he woulda been hammered.
I think you might have misinterpreted @WDLion post. He was making the same point you were.
 
"Lax defensive rules"?????? Are you nuts???? Those guys were literal head hunters back then. That sandwich hit on Mahomes today was perfectly legal and common in Bradshaw's era. Today's game is nothing but pitch and catch by comparison.

I have no idea where you're coming from on this one. You HAD to keep two backs in the backfield back then to make sure your QB didn't get killed. Playing with an empty backfield would have been suicide. Things like getting a penalty for a "Helmet to helmet" hit would have been unheard of. In fact, they would have laughed you back to the locker room and called you a pussy if you complained about someone making contact with you with their helmet.

I guarantee you if Brady played back then, at the very least he would have had a few less teeth and a few more scars on that pretty smooth face of his.
I am saying that those all-time great Steeler defenses were crucial to Bradshaw’s 4 titles. So while he got beat up more, the Steelers did the same and that was a huge net gain in winning titles.

Brady won 7. He did not get hit as much, but he also did not gain as much from defensive support through his career either.

Net, I am saying it’s not as big a factor as you are. That’s all.
 
But you can see that athletes of today are better than in the past. For example, look at Jim Thorpe’s Olympic numbers....he wouldn’t win high school track events these days let alone gold medals. Today’s athletes are bigger, stronger, faster and thirty years from now the athletes will be better than they are now.

"Bigger, stronger, faster"? As far as the AMERICAN male goes, I see the trend going in the opposite direction. Supplements and numbers may skew the paradigm for a few more years, but overall, I DEFINITELY see it trending downward.

I work out in a lot of gyms in a lot of places and am pushing 70. All I can tell you is that even after having COVID, I'm still out lifting and out performing most of these kids in their teens, 20s, and 30s. And I'm not anywhere near in the same galaxy as good as I was at their ages.

On top of that, the overall size of the average American male seems to be getting smaller. A lot of these younger guys are Asian and Hispanic. Say what you want, but they are just shorter and not as physically strong.

That's one of the reasons the PAC 12 is having such a hard time recruiting quality linemen. The high influx of Asians, Mexicans, and Central Americans, combined with the exodus of Whites, and the relatively low Black population, is making it harder to find the size of quality athlete required to play line at the Power 5 level on the West Coast. It's not just me saying that. It has been a topic of discussion on the PAC 12 Network.

We are going to have to more and more look to other countries for all those "quality athletes" you are talking about. Because in the USA, unfortunately, our male population is trending towards being physically shorter and softer.
 
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1. First, let it be known that I despise Brady. That said, if you had to choose one quarterback to win a football game that would save your house from being repossessed, you would absolutely consider Brady. Maybe you’d choose someone else, but every one of you would consider Tom Brady. Is he the greatest quarterback of all time? I have no idea, but the guy keeps winning Super Bowls.

2. Yesterday’s game reminded me of the SB after the 1980 season, when Oakland beat Philadelphia, quite easily. After the game, the Oakland players spoke about Jaworski: “He never quit, he never panicked, his eyes were always downfield looking to make a play.” I thought the same thing about Mahomes in yesterday’s game. He never quit, he kept plays alive with ungodly athleticism, he kept fighting to the end. Wow, what a great, great competitor.
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+1 on Mahomes, he had zero help last night. Did he have any WR's? and Kelce had the worst game I've ever seen him play.
Mahomes, was under crazy pressure all night and delivered a couple balls that were just amazing throws and the WR's dropped them.
 
Koufax was a great pitcher, but he benefited from a higher mound during his career. That really accentuated the curve ball before 1968. Lowering the mound changed how pitchers pitched.
Interesting point. I never thought about the mound height change. Besides accentuating his curve I wonder if the higher mound made his fast ball more intimidating. The hitters claimed that it rose as it approached the plate. I realize that that defies physics but maybe the way his fast ball behaved had something to do with the higher mound.

We will never know if Koufax would be an elite pitcher today or a stiff. He might have adapted to the lower mound and did well.

Another thing to consider is that the very best athletes in the 1950s and 1960s tended to play baseball since that was where the money was. Now there is money in all sports and the best athletes fan out. If Koufax was young today he might have focused on basketball instead of baseball.
 
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