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Roar's 2016-17 Review...and more!!

RoarLions1

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2012
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How does one prepare a review to an upcoming season, and have it make sense, or have much confidence in what they are writing? The short answers are; “they can’t”, “it’s a waste of time”, or “who’s interested, anyway?”. Well, I know plenty that are interested, and will continue annually to waste my time doing something that doesn’t mean a thing! Still, there’s plenty of FACTS here, such as who has moved on, who earned AA in 2016, etc., maybe, just maybe, it won’t be totally worthless.

So, an analysis like this, done 4 months before the season starts, begs the question…what does the writer use as a basis? The final rankings? The NCAA Tournament results? Postulation, conjecture, supposition, speculation, prediction, opinion, and other non-scientific thought? Heck yeah, all of that stuff.

Just look at the NCAA results. Final end-of-season rankings approximate the NCAA seeds, and you can see from the results why every possible review, from even the best minds, is fraught with DISASTER. Really high seeds represented themselves well, with 6 #1’s winning titles, and the other 4 #1’s finishing top-3. 8 (out of 40) top-4 seeds did NOT end as AA’s , including 3 at 174 where only #1 seed Bo Nickal managed an AA finish (he finished #2). #’s 2, 3, and 4 went down early to wrestlers named Bernstein, Reed, and Weatherspoon, and did not make it through wrestle-backs. 5 unseeded guys (remember, seeding went to 16!) became AA, and another 8 wrestlers, seeded 13-16 ended as AA’s. 31% of the 2016 AA’s were not seeded top-8…wow!! And only 3 weight classes, 133, 197, and 285 had some semblance of accuracy (seeding-wise), with 7 of the 8 AA’s in these classes seeded top-8. Point of this paragraph? I don’t care if you’re Intermat, WrestlingReport, or TOM; your name is Christian, Willie, or Jason; or you run a mathematical model called Wrestlestats…even if you go by “Roar”, none stand a chance…but at least we can make it fun, and pass the off-season with at least a little wrestling talk.

So here goes. I used NCAA results mostly, and peppered in other info, such as top-20 seniors that are gone, and incoming RSFR and true-freshmen. May have missed some, so feel free to add to the discussion. Also, my focus was on PSU, VT, Ohio State, Iowa, and Oklahoma State, my top-5 for 2016-17, so extra time was spent on those teams.

125
Gone are 2 AA’s, #’s 1 Megaludis (PSU), and #4 Terao, along with notables Klimara (OSU), Petrov and Tolbert. Looks like Gilman (Iowa), and Tomasello (tOSU) are the class of 125, and Dance (VT) a notch below though he’s not had the best of NCAA’s the past 2 years. Suriano (PSU, true freshman), and Piccininni (OSU, RSFR) will enter the fray, and should be in the mix for AA.

133
Gone are 4 AA’s, #1 Garrett, #3 Brewer, #6 Conaway (PSU), and #8 Rauser, along with Taylor, Beckham, McGuire and Alexander. This weight class really opens up. Clark (Iowa) and Richards are my top 2. Oklahoma State has Brock (Freshman status after a Hardship Waiver), PSU has Cortez (Sophomore), and tOSU has Pletcher (TRFR) entering, and all will be in the mix for AA.

141
Only 1 AA departs, #5 Mecate, as well as Abadin, Durso, Preston and Horan from the top-20 rankings, and M. Jordan (tOSU) is moving to 149. This is a deep weight class, and I really like all 4 of last year’s finishers, #1 Heil (Ok St), #2 Merideth, #3 McKenna, and #4 Ashnault. Gulibon (PSU) is capable of beating anyone on a given day, and will be looking to go out with a bang in his last season. tOSU has Hayes (RSFR), and VT has returning AA #6 Chishko. Iowa is unlikely to AA at 141, but OSU, VT, PSU, and tOSU are all likely to possible, despite the depth at 141.

149
Like 141, only 1 AA departs due to graduation, #5 DePalma, but #8 Martinez sits a year after transferring to Oklahoma State from Boise State. Sueflohn, Henderson, Richardson, Neff, and Kraus also depart, with the teams most likely to benefit being Ohio State and Virginia Tech. #1 Retherford (PSU), #2 Sorensen (Iowa), and #4 Collica (Ok St) already finished top-4, with little to gain. Not sure about VT (Mastriani?), but tOSU will insert M. Jordan, moving up from 141, and instant AA material despite a disappointing 2016 NCAA.

157
Gone are 3 AA seniors, #3 Brascetta (VT), #6 Miller, and #8 Gantt plus IMar moving to 165, making half of the 2016 AA’s vacating 157. Pack, Cooper (Iowa), Smith, and Boyles also depart from among the top-20 guys. Nolf (PSU) should be a clear favorite with IMar departing, and Smith (7th/Ok St) will likely best his 2016 finish. Blees (VT, transfer from Ok St) has less than 25% chance to AA, imo, but Kemerer (Iowa), and Ryan (tOSU) are more likely, probably #5-#8 range, R12 if they don’t AA.

165
Hodge Trophy winner Dieringer (Ok St), along with, #5 Rodrigues, #7 A. Wilson and #8 Perrotti are gone, but 165 picks up I. Martinez from 157. 165 also loses Staudenmeyer, Brennan, Weatherman, Welch and Pickett rom among the top-20, but is still talent-laden. Question marks for 2016-17 include who goes for tOSU, I. White or Bo Jordan, and whether TnT will RS Marinelli (Iowa). McFadden (#6/VT) is back and could move up the AA ladder due to departures, though IMar moves everyone, imo, down 1 peg. Joseph (PSU) will be an AA candidate out of the gate, so the Nittany Lions appear to have the most to gain at this weight class.

174
2016 was a mess. Only one seed among the top-6 earned AA, and we saw 2 unseeded guys finish 4th and 6th, as well as a #12 seed finish 5th and a #13 seed finish 8th. All that, and a #11 seed, Martin (tOSU) wins the championship. I love the NCAA’s!! #4 Kent and #7 Walters depart, and Hammond, Butler, Ottinger, Courts, and Harvey of note from among the top-20. Epperly (VT) returns after winning 7 straight in wrestle-backs to finish 3rd, and Iowa has #8 Meyer returning. Still not sure what tOSU will do, but either B. Jordan (#3 at 165) or Martin will challenge for the championship. #2 Nickal (PSU) returns and is looking to improve on his 2016 finish. OSU should have Crutchmer back from a late-season injury, so it’s possible all 5 teams I’m reviewing will have an AA finish, though Realbuto, Ramos and others will surely have a say.

184
Only AA’s #5 Miller and #7 Brown are gone in what will be a senior-laden weight class. Zillmer, Avery, Stauffer, and Thomas depart as well. #4 Boyd (OSU) returns, as does #8 Brooks (Iowa), both looking to improve their finish, though #1 Dean seems a prohibitive favorite for the top spot. Again, what will Ohio State do? Could see Martin move up from 174, that being my guess as I. White gets inserted at 165. The two teams with the most to gain here are VT (Zavatsky did not AA, and was a #5 seed), and PSU. Who goes for the Blue-and-White is regular forum-talk, with McCutcheon and Rasheed the choices, with an occasional “I heard a rumor that Bo is moving to 184”. Looks like all 5 teams have AA potential.

197
#2 McIntosh (PSU), #4 Burak (Iowa), and #7 Hartmann depart, as well as a slew of other top-20 guys…Franklin, Huntley, Nye, Bolich, Noon, and Wellington. #1 Cox and #3 Pfarr look to be the clear top-2, with #6 Haught (VT) looking to move up. NQ Weigel could sneak in an AA finish, but I’m calling him less than 50-50. Moore (tOSU) and Cassar (PSU) could make some noise, but both are unknowns for the most part, and Cassar is recovering from injury. I’ll leave both as R16 to R12 guys. If Weigel, Moore, or Cassar do AA, it will be big for their team.

285
Departing are #2 Gwiz, #6 Marsden (OSU), and #8 Wessel, along with Stolfi, Cabell, Shaw, and Smith. #1 Snyder (tOSU) has nowhere to go but down (and that’s incredibly unlikely), so it’s a wash for tOSU. #4 Walz (VT) could move up, even to #2, so that’s a possible +3.5 points. Stoll (Iowa), and Nevills (PSU) both have a chance to make a big impact for their team. Both are coming off injuries, and recovery…I just wish them good health and good luck on the mat. Both could, and should, AA, if healthy, though I’ll give Stoll the higher upside for now. OSU’s JUCO transfer, Andrews, will have a tough time AA’ing.

TEAMS, AND A FUTURE LOOK NEXT...
 
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Penn State
Lost lots of NCAA points (50) from 2015-16 (Megaludis, Conaway and McIntosh), but return a great core of 3 finalists (149/Retherford, 157/Nolf, and 174/Nickal), and former AA 141/Gulibon. Some speculation is needed at the other 6 weight classes. In some cases a new guy is manning the class (125/Suriano, 133/Cortez, 165/Joseph but don’t forget Morelli, and 197/Cassar or Stout, even A.J. Nevills), while at others (184/McCutcheon or Rasheed, 285/Nevills) it’s some combination of “who will come out on top” or “how well will he return from an injury? (include Cassar with that question). Assuming good health, and it looks like 10 qualifiers, all capable of AA’ing. I’ll go with 7-8 AA’s, and 120 Points at NCAA’s. Of 23 Bonus Points in 2016, PSU only loses 5 to graduation.

Ohio State
tOSU lost starters Martin, Courts, and DiJulius to graduation, but not many NCAA points (3). Solid everywhere, with a possible line-up of Tomasello, Pletcher, Hayes, M. Jordan, Ryan, White, B. Jordan, Martin, Moore, and Snyder. Some unknowns, such as a possible White RS, which affects 174 and 184 (what will B. Jordan and Martin do?). I’m guessing Tom Ryan goes all-in and wrestles White, and Pletcher wins the spot at 133. This team could top Penn State, but the early numbers suggest they’d need 9 AA’s, and at least 2 champs to do it. I’m guessing 6-7 AA’s, and 115 Points.

Iowa
Starters Burak, Grothus, Cooper and Rhoads are gone, with #4 Burak’s 12.5 NCAA Points the most significant loss. Enter Kemerer, and maybe Marinelli (true freshman, will he RS or start?), along with new guys at 141 and 197, and hopefully a fully-recovered Stoll (285), and Iowa will be in the mix. Gilman (125), and Clark (133) will start the season favored, and Sorensen (149) will start #2, so they have a great core. With 4 Seniors (Gilman, Clark, Meyer, Brooks) in 2016-17, and a likely down year in 2017-18, my guess is TnT will go all-in and start Marinelli in 2016-17, maybe RS’ing him in 2017-18. Iowa’s fortune will be determined by their number of finalists (Gilman, Clark, Sorensen, and Brooks are possible, imo), their number of champs (I see 2 possible of the 4 listed), and their supporting cast. A healthy Stoll will surely AA, Meyer could repeat as a low-AA, and I’ll add Kemerer as likely, and Marinelli as 50/50 to AA, but I don’t see much at 141 or 197, and that’s a problem. Only chance to overtake Ohio State and Penn State is 8 AA’s and a big improvement in Bonus Points, where they only had 10 in 2016. My opinion, I just don’t see the stars aligning, so I’ll go with 90 Points and 7 AA’s.

Oklahoma State
Gone are D-ringer, Marsden, and Klimara, and their 36 NCAA Points, 2nd most gone, next to Penn State’s 50. Strong core, with Heil (#1/141), Collica (#4/149), Smith (#7/157), and Boyd (#4/184) returning. Piccininni will be good at 125 but imo is 50-50 to AA, as is Weigel at 197. Brock (133), and Crutcher (174) will return from injury and will surely be AA-caliber, but 165 (can Rogers descend and be effective?), and 285 (I see no AA here), are question marks. I see one finalist, maybe 2, with 1 champ possible. I do see four 3rd/4th Place guys. They’ll have to improve on their 13.5 Bonus Points, but 7 of those came from D-Ringer and Marsden in 2016, and both are gone, so doubt that will happen. I’ll go with 7 AA’s and 90 Points, tying Iowa.

Virginia Tech
Only Braschetta (#3/157) is gone from the 4th Place Hokie team, which bodes well for 2016-17. This team is young!! A great core returns, with Chishko (6th/141), McFadden (6th/165), Epperly (3rd/174), Haught (6th/197), and Walz (4th/285). Dance (NQ/125), and Zavatsy (NQ/174) also return, and are instant high-AA candidates (Dance was seeded #2, and Zavatsky #5 in 2016). Blees, an import from OSU, could firm up 149 or 157, but I don’t see an AA at these weight classes or 133. Walz, Dance, and Epperly are my picks for possible finalists, with Walz having the best chance, and I don’t see any Champs. 7 AA’s will earn them another high finish, I’ll go with 90 Points and a battle for 3rd through 5th with Iowa and Oklahoma State.

The Future – 2017-18
Too early, but could it be a dogfight between Penn State and Ohio State? The Buckeyes may not have a single senior in their 2016-17 line-up and, if that’s the case, will return everyone, while Penn State may only have one senior starter (Gulibon), and will return 9, but will add Mark Hall to the line-up. Iowa, after losing 4 wrestlers this season, will lose another 4 (Gilman, Clark, Meyer, Brooks) in 2017-18, for what looks like a down year for the Hawkeyes. Guessing TnT will RS Lee and Marinelli, along with others, in order to make National Championship runs starting in 2018-19. Virginia Tech only lose Dance and Walz from a very talented and very young team, but may not have the high top-end talent (National Champs) to finish better than 3rd. Oklahoma State, after losing 3 guys this year, lose another 4 (Collica, Rogers, Crutchmer, Boyd) to graduation, and while they are always in reload mode, these losses will be tough to recover from in 1 year, given what tOSU and PSU have returning. So, the way-too-early, pull-this-stuff-out-of-my-butt, let’s-hope-everyone-stays-healthy, how-will-freshmen-impact-this-review, analysis has PSU #1, tOSU #2, VT #3, Ok St #4, and Iowa #5…unless some other team I did not review (Cornell?, NC St?, others?) sneaks in.

The Future – 2018-19
If a 2017-18 review is too early, a 2018-19 review is unrealistically so. Still, Penn State’s fortunes look so good on paper that I’ll take a chance. Gone for the Nittany Lions will be Retherford and McCutcheon from 2017-18, but PSU should be laden with talent, with some combination of Suriano (Jr), Cortez (Sr), Lee (Fr), Manville (Fr), Nolf (Sr), Joseph (Jr), Hall (So), Nickal (Sr), Rasheed (Sr), Stout (Jr), Cassar (Sr), Nevills (Sr) and others vying for 10 spots. Without looking at all the talent coming in for the other 4 teams in this review, all I will look at is what is departing. Ohio State will be without Tomasello, Bo Jordan, and Kyle Snyder from the previous year, Iowa should only lose Sorensen, VT loses Epperly and Haught, and OSU loses Heil. Again, too early, but one can dream...I’ll go #1 PSU, #2 Iowa, and heaven-only-knows after that.
 
Great work! I don't have the patience to do all of that.

I'd keep an eye on Arizona State this year. I don't think they'll reach top 5. But they have a number of wrestlers who can make some noise at nationals -- most notably Sasquatch and the Valencias -- so they could play kingmaker by knocking off guys on the top 5 teams.

I also think Michigan could be dangerous, again not top 5 this year, but maybe 2018. They add Micic and the Massas this year.
 
Great stuff! It's going to be fun watching PSU, tOSU, and Iowa doing battle next year, and future years. I'm anxious to see Manville and Hall whenever they start. Season can't start soon enough.
 
Great work! I don't have the patience to do all of that.

I'd keep an eye on Arizona State this year. I don't think they'll reach top 5. But they have a number of wrestlers who can make some noise at nationals -- most notably Sasquatch and the Valencias -- so they could play kingmaker by knocking off guys on the top 5 teams.

I also think Michigan could be dangerous, again not top 5 this year, but maybe 2018. They add Micic and the Massas this year.
Agreed. Ohio State wrestles them in Tempe on November 18th. Expect me to be out there...will be a good barometer for the Sun Devils.
 
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I was thinking of ASU too. If BoJo and Martin remain at 165 and 174 and if the Valencias both go at those weights, those could be a couple of great dual meet matches. I realize that Z Valencia destroyed Martin in FS not long ago. Still, it will be tough for ASU to break top 5 this year--maybe in a couple of years depending on how their recruiting continues to go.
 
One more team to look out for...Missouri. Not viewed as much of a tournament team, but I had them picked second for Nationals this past year (although roughly a billion points behind Penn State), and they may have come close to that if Matt Manley was healthy. In fact, switching gears, it would not surprise me to see you guys in Columbia for the National Duals final this year. (the November 20th dual between Missouri and Virginia Tech in Columbia will go a long way to determine who the non-B1G representative will be)
 
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Just look at the NCAA results. Final end-of-season rankings approximate the NCAA seeds, and you can see from the results why every possible review, from even the best minds, is fraught with DISASTER. Really high seeds represented themselves well, with 6 #1’s winning titles, and the other 4 #1’s finishing top-3. 8 (out of 40) top-4 seeds did NOT end as AA’s , including 3 at 174 where only #1 seed Bo Nickal managed an AA finish (he finished #2). #’s 2, 3, and 4 went down early to wrestlers named Bernstein, Reed, and Weatherspoon, and did not make it through wrestle-backs. 5 unseeded guys (remember, seeding went to 16!) became AA, and another 8 wrestlers, seeded 13-16 ended as AA’s. 31% of the 2016 AA’s were not seeded top-8…wow!! And only 3 weight classes, 133, 197, and 285 had some semblance of accuracy (seeding-wise), with 7 of the 8 AA’s in these classes seeded top-8. Point of this paragraph? I don’t care if you’re Intermat, WrestlingReport, or TOM; your name is Christian, Willie, or Jason; or you run a mathematical model called Wrestlestats…even if you go by “Roar”, none stand a chance…but at least we can make it fun, and pass the off-season with at least a little wrestling talk.

The seeding committee does as well as any wrestling analysts in predicting who AA's and in exact placements. It truly is a crap shoot. Here is one of multiple threads I've done over the years on this topic:http://forum.theopenmat.com/index.php/topic,26858.msg352131.html#msg352131
 
Just look at the NCAA results. Final end-of-season rankings approximate the NCAA seeds, and you can see from the results why every possible review, from even the best minds, is fraught with DISASTER. Really high seeds represented themselves well, with 6 #1’s winning titles, and the other 4 #1’s finishing top-3. 8 (out of 40) top-4 seeds did NOT end as AA’s , including 3 at 174 where only #1 seed Bo Nickal managed an AA finish (he finished #2). #’s 2, 3, and 4 went down early to wrestlers named Bernstein, Reed, and Weatherspoon, and did not make it through wrestle-backs. 5 unseeded guys (remember, seeding went to 16!) became AA, and another 8 wrestlers, seeded 13-16 ended as AA’s. 31% of the 2016 AA’s were not seeded top-8…wow!! And only 3 weight classes, 133, 197, and 285 had some semblance of accuracy (seeding-wise), with 7 of the 8 AA’s in these classes seeded top-8. Point of this paragraph? I don’t care if you’re Intermat, WrestlingReport, or TOM; your name is Christian, Willie, or Jason; or you run a mathematical model called Wrestlestats…even if you go by “Roar”, none stand a chance…but at least we can make it fun, and pass the off-season with at least a little wrestling talk.
Just noticed this passage, and you're entirely right in terms of everybody knowledgeable being somewhat comparable every year, but no love for the Index? :(
 
Just noticed this passage, and you're entirely right in terms of everybody knowledgeable being somewhat comparable every year, but no love for the Index? :(

I was making a point...not being either inclusive or exclusive...but I'm guessing you know that.
 
Penn State
Lost lots of NCAA points (50) from 2015-16 (Megaludis, Conaway and McIntosh), but return a great core of 3 finalists (149/Retherford, 157/Nolf, and 174/Nickal), and former AA 141/Gulibon. Some speculation is needed at the other 6 weight classes. In some cases a new guy is manning the class (125/Suriano, 133/Cortez, 165/Joseph but don’t forget Morelli, and 197/Cassar or Stout, even A.J. Nevills), while at others (184/McCutcheon or Rasheed, 285/Nevills) it’s some combination of “who will come out on top” or “how well will he return from an injury? (include Cassar with that question). Assuming good health, and it looks like 10 qualifiers, all capable of AA’ing. I’ll go with 7-8 AA’s, and 120 Points at NCAA’s. Of 23 Bonus Points in 2016, PSU only loses 5 to graduation.

Ohio State
tOSU lost starters Martin, Courts, and DiJulius to graduation, but not many NCAA points (3). Solid everywhere, with a possible line-up of Tomasello, Pletcher, Hayes, M. Jordan, Ryan, White, B. Jordan, Martin, Moore, and Snyder. Some unknowns, such as a possible White RS, which affects 174 and 184 (what will B. Jordan and Martin do?). I’m guessing Tom Ryan goes all-in and wrestles White, and Pletcher wins the spot at 133. This team could top Penn State, but the early numbers suggest they’d need 9 AA’s, and at least 2 champs to do it. I’m guessing 6-7 AA’s, and 115 Points.

Iowa
Starters Burak, Grothus, Cooper and Rhoads are gone, with #4 Burak’s 12.5 NCAA Points the most significant loss. Enter Kemerer, and maybe Marinelli (true freshman, will he RS or start?), along with new guys at 141 and 197, and hopefully a fully-recovered Stoll (285), and Iowa will be in the mix. Gilman (125), and Clark (133) will start the season favored, and Sorensen (149) will start #2, so they have a great core. With 4 Seniors (Gilman, Clark, Meyer, Brooks) in 2016-17, and a likely down year in 2017-18, my guess is TnT will go all-in and start Marinelli in 2016-17, maybe RS’ing him in 2017-18. Iowa’s fortune will be determined by their number of finalists (Gilman, Clark, Sorensen, and Brooks are possible, imo), their number of champs (I see 2 possible of the 4 listed), and their supporting cast. A healthy Stoll will surely AA, Meyer could repeat as a low-AA, and I’ll add Kemerer as likely, and Marinelli as 50/50 to AA, but I don’t see much at 141 or 197, and that’s a problem. Only chance to overtake Ohio State and Penn State is 8 AA’s and a big improvement in Bonus Points, where they only had 10 in 2016. My opinion, I just don’t see the stars aligning, so I’ll go with 90 Points and 7 AA’s.

Oklahoma State
Gone are D-ringer, Marsden, and Klimara, and their 36 NCAA Points, 2nd most gone, next to Penn State’s 50. Strong core, with Heil (#1/141), Collica (#4/149), Smith (#7/157), and Boyd (#4/184) returning. Piccininni will be good at 125 but imo is 50-50 to AA, as is Weigel at 197. Brock (133), and Crutcher (174) will return from injury and will surely be AA-caliber, but 165 (can Rogers descend and be effective?), and 285 (I see no AA here), are question marks. I see one finalist, maybe 2, with 1 champ possible. I do see four 3rd/4th Place guys. They’ll have to improve on their 13.5 Bonus Points, but 7 of those came from D-Ringer and Marsden in 2016, and both are gone, so doubt that will happen. I’ll go with 7 AA’s and 90 Points, tying Iowa.

Virginia Tech
Only Braschetta (#3/157) is gone from the 4th Place Hokie team, which bodes well for 2016-17. This team is young!! A great core returns, with Chishko (6th/141), McFadden (6th/165), Epperly (3rd/174), Haught (6th/197), and Walz (4th/285). Dance (NQ/125), and Zavatsy (NQ/174) also return, and are instant high-AA candidates (Dance was seeded #2, and Zavatsky #5 in 2016). Blees, an import from OSU, could firm up 149 or 157, but I don’t see an AA at these weight classes or 133. Walz, Dance, and Epperly are my picks for possible finalists, with Walz having the best chance, and I don’t see any Champs. 7 AA’s will earn them another high finish, I’ll go with 90 Points and a battle for 3rd through 5th with Iowa and Oklahoma State.

The Future – 2017-18
Too early, but could it be a dogfight between Penn State and Ohio State? The Buckeyes may not have a single senior in their 2016-17 line-up and, if that’s the case, will return everyone, while Penn State may only have one senior starter (Gulibon), and will return 9, but will add Mark Hall to the line-up. Iowa, after losing 4 wrestlers this season, will lose another 4 (Gilman, Clark, Meyer, Brooks) in 2017-18, for what looks like a down year for the Hawkeyes. Guessing TnT will RS Lee and Marinelli, along with others, in order to make National Championship runs starting in 2018-19. Virginia Tech only lose Dance and Walz from a very talented and very young team, but may not have the high top-end talent (National Champs) to finish better than 3rd. Oklahoma State, after losing 3 guys this year, lose another 4 (Collica, Rogers, Crutchmer, Boyd) to graduation, and while they are always in reload mode, these losses will be tough to recover from in 1 year, given what tOSU and PSU have returning. So, the way-too-early, pull-this-stuff-out-of-my-butt, let’s-hope-everyone-stays-healthy, how-will-freshmen-impact-this-review, analysis has PSU #1, tOSU #2, VT #3, Ok St #4, and Iowa #5…unless some other team I did not review (Cornell?, NC St?, others?) sneaks in.

The Future – 2018-19
If a 2017-18 review is too early, a 2018-19 review is unrealistically so. Still, Penn State’s fortunes look so good on paper that I’ll take a chance. Gone for the Nittany Lions will be Retherford and McCutcheon from 2017-18, but PSU should be laden with talent, with some combination of Suriano (Jr), Cortez (Sr), Lee (Fr), Manville (Fr), Nolf (Sr), Joseph (Jr), Hall (So), Nickal (Sr), Rasheed (Sr), Stout (Jr), Cassar (Sr), Nevills (Sr) and others vying for 10 spots. Without looking at all the talent coming in for the other 4 teams in this review, all I will look at is what is departing. Ohio State will be without Tomasello, Bo Jordan, and Kyle Snyder from the previous year, Iowa should only lose Sorensen, VT loses Epperly and Haught, and OSU loses Heil. Again, too early, but one can dream...I’ll go #1 PSU, #2 Iowa, and heaven-only-knows after that.

Great write-up as always. There has to be an award to give out to you somewhere, most awesome poster or something.

Any predictions on final standings at Nationals?
 
I was having one of those debates with myself a short while ago, trying to decide whether to take
some action, or not.......the kind where it seems you have an angel on one shoulder and a devil on
the other.
And I swear, I think the angel on my right shoulder was Roar.
So, he doesnt need any earthly rewards.

Btw...the devil on my left shoulder mighta been 21guns...not sure.
 
Great write-up as always. There has to be an award to give out to you somewhere, most awesome poster or something.

Any predictions on final standings at Nationals?

Predictions? I did have the NCAA Point totals listed in this early, early, early review...but it's with a grain of salt that it is offered.

My personal meter (for all total team point guesses this early) reads;
Within 20 Points - Satisfied
Within 15 Points - Delightfully satisfied
Within 10 Points - Delighted
Within 5 Points - Scary :eek:
 
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I was having one of those debates with myself a short while ago, trying to decide whether to take
some action, or not.......the kind where it seems you have an angel on one shoulder and a devil on
the other.
And I swear, I think the angel on my right shoulder was Roar.
So, he doesnt need any earthly rewards.

Btw...the devil on my left shoulder mighta been 21guns...not sure.

Then your argument was definitely not about wrestling: I agree with the bulk of Roar lions post, and believe PSU is the pre season number one, with a very good shot to repeat this season.
 
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How does one prepare a review to an upcoming season, and have it make sense, or have much confidence in what they are writing? The short answers are; “they can’t”, “it’s a waste of time”, or “who’s interested, anyway?”. Well, I know plenty that are interested, and will continue annually to waste my time doing something that doesn’t mean a thing! Still, there’s plenty of FACTS here, such as who has moved on, who earned AA in 2016, etc., maybe, just maybe, it won’t be totally worthless.

So, an analysis like this, done 4 months before the season starts, begs the question…what does the writer use as a basis? The final rankings? The NCAA Tournament results? Postulation, conjecture, supposition, speculation, prediction, opinion, and other non-scientific thought? Heck yeah, all of that stuff.

Just look at the NCAA results. Final end-of-season rankings approximate the NCAA seeds, and you can see from the results why every possible review, from even the best minds, is fraught with DISASTER. Really high seeds represented themselves well, with 6 #1’s winning titles, and the other 4 #1’s finishing top-3. 8 (out of 40) top-4 seeds did NOT end as AA’s , including 3 at 174 where only #1 seed Bo Nickal managed an AA finish (he finished #2). #’s 2, 3, and 4 went down early to wrestlers named Bernstein, Reed, and Weatherspoon, and did not make it through wrestle-backs. 5 unseeded guys (remember, seeding went to 16!) became AA, and another 8 wrestlers, seeded 13-16 ended as AA’s. 31% of the 2016 AA’s were not seeded top-8…wow!! And only 3 weight classes, 133, 197, and 285 had some semblance of accuracy (seeding-wise), with 7 of the 8 AA’s in these classes seeded top-8. Point of this paragraph? I don’t care if you’re Intermat, WrestlingReport, or TOM; your name is Christian, Willie, or Jason; or you run a mathematical model called Wrestlestats…even if you go by “Roar”, none stand a chance…but at least we can make it fun, and pass the off-season with at least a little wrestling talk.

So here goes. I used NCAA results mostly, and peppered in other info, such as top-20 seniors that are gone, and incoming RSFR and true-freshmen. May have missed some, so feel free to add to the discussion. Also, my focus was on PSU, VT, Ohio State, Iowa, and Oklahoma State, my top-5 for 2016-17, so extra time was spent on those teams.

125
Gone are 2 AA’s, #’s 1 Megaludis (PSU), and #4 Terao, along with notables Klimara (OSU), Petrov and Tolbert. Looks like Gilman (Iowa), and Tomasello (tOSU) are the class of 125, and Dance (VT) a notch below though he’s not had the best of NCAA’s the past 2 years. Suriano (PSU, true freshman), and Piccininni (OSU, RSFR) will enter the fray, and should be in the mix for AA.

133
Gone are 4 AA’s, #1 Garrett, #3 Brewer, #6 Conaway (PSU), and #8 Rauser, along with Taylor, Beckham, McGuire and Alexander. This weight class really opens up. Clark (Iowa) and Richards are my top 2. Oklahoma State has Brock (Freshman status after a Hardship Waiver), PSU has Cortez (Sophomore), and tOSU has Pletcher (TRFR) entering, and all will be in the mix for AA.

141
Only 1 AA departs, #5 Mecate, as well as Abadin, Durso, Preston and Horan from the top-20 rankings, and M. Jordan (tOSU) is moving to 149. This is a deep weight class, and I really like all 4 of last year’s finishers, #1 Heil (Ok St), #2 Merideth, #3 McKenna, and #4 Ashnault. Gulibon (PSU) is capable of beating anyone on a given day, and will be looking to go out with a bang in his last season. tOSU has Hayes (RSFR), and VT has returning AA #6 Chishko. Iowa is unlikely to AA at 141, but OSU, VT, PSU, and tOSU are all likely to possible, despite the depth at 141.

149
Like 141, only 1 AA departs due to graduation, #5 DePalma, but #8 Martinez sits a year after transferring to Oklahoma State from Boise State. Sueflohn, Henderson, Richardson, Neff, and Kraus also depart, with the teams most likely to benefit being Ohio State and Virginia Tech. #1 Retherford (PSU), #2 Sorensen (Iowa), and #4 Collica (Ok St) already finished top-4, with little to gain. Not sure about VT (Mastriani?), but tOSU will insert M. Jordan, moving up from 141, and instant AA material despite a disappointing 2016 NCAA.

157
Gone are 3 AA seniors, #3 Brascetta (VT), #6 Miller, and #8 Gantt plus IMar moving to 165, making half of the 2016 AA’s vacating 157. Pack, Cooper (Iowa), Smith, and Boyles also depart from among the top-20 guys. Nolf (PSU) should be a clear favorite with IMar departing, and Smith (7th/Ok St) will likely best his 2016 finish. Blees (VT, transfer from Ok St) has less than 25% chance to AA, imo, but Kemerer (Iowa), and Ryan (tOSU) are more likely, probably #5-#8 range, R12 if they don’t AA.

165
Hodge Trophy winner Dieringer (Ok St), along with, #5 Rodrigues, #7 A. Wilson and #8 Perrotti are gone, but 165 picks up I. Martinez from 157. 165 also loses Staudenmeyer, Brennan, Weatherman, Welch and Pickett rom among the top-20, but is still talent-laden. Question marks for 2016-17 include who goes for tOSU, I. White or Bo Jordan, and whether TnT will RS Marinelli (Iowa). McFadden (#6/VT) is back and could move up the AA ladder due to departures, though IMar moves everyone, imo, down 1 peg. Joseph (PSU) will be an AA candidate out of the gate, so the Nittany Lions appear to have the most to gain at this weight class.

174
2016 was a mess. Only one seed among the top-6 earned AA, and we saw 2 unseeded guys finish 4th and 6th, as well as a #12 seed finish 5th and a #13 seed finish 8th. All that, and a #11 seed, Martin (tOSU) wins the championship. I love the NCAA’s!! #4 Kent and #7 Walters depart, and Hammond, Butler, Ottinger, Courts, and Harvey of note from among the top-20. Epperly (VT) returns after winning 7 straight in wrestle-backs to finish 3rd, and Iowa has #8 Meyer returning. Still not sure what tOSU will do, but either B. Jordan (#3 at 165) or Martin will challenge for the championship. #2 Nickal (PSU) returns and is looking to improve on his 2016 finish. OSU should have Crutchmer back from a late-season injury, so it’s possible all 5 teams I’m reviewing will have an AA finish, though Realbuto, Ramos and others will surely have a say.

184
Only AA’s #5 Miller and #7 Brown are gone in what will be a senior-laden weight class. Zillmer, Avery, Stauffer, and Thomas depart as well. #4 Boyd (OSU) returns, as does #8 Brooks (Iowa), both looking to improve their finish, though #1 Dean seems a prohibitive favorite for the top spot. Again, what will Ohio State do? Could see Martin move up from 174, that being my guess as I. White gets inserted at 165. The two teams with the most to gain here are VT (Zavatsky did not AA, and was a #5 seed), and PSU. Who goes for the Blue-and-White is regular forum-talk, with McCutcheon and Rasheed the choices, with an occasional “I heard a rumor that Bo is moving to 184”. Looks like all 5 teams have AA potential.

197
#2 McIntosh (PSU), #4 Burak (Iowa), and #7 Hartmann depart, as well as a slew of other top-20 guys…Franklin, Huntley, Nye, Bolich, Noon, and Wellington. #1 Cox and #3 Pfarr look to be the clear top-2, with #6 Haught (VT) looking to move up. NQ Weigel could sneak in an AA finish, but I’m calling him less than 50-50. Moore (tOSU) and Cassar (PSU) could make some noise, but both are unknowns for the most part, and Cassar is recovering from injury. I’ll leave both as R16 to R12 guys. If Weigel, Moore, or Cassar do AA, it will be big for their team.

285
Departing are #2 Gwiz, #6 Marsden (OSU), and #8 Wessel, along with Stolfi, Cabell, Shaw, and Smith. #1 Snyder (tOSU) has nowhere to go but down (and that’s incredibly unlikely), so it’s a wash for tOSU. #4 Walz (VT) could move up, even to #2, so that’s a possible +3.5 points. Stoll (Iowa), and Nevills (PSU) both have a chance to make a big impact for their team. Both are coming off injuries, and recovery…I just wish them good health and good luck on the mat. Both could, and should, AA, if healthy, though I’ll give Stoll the higher upside for now. OSU’s JUCO transfer, Andrews, will have a tough time AA’ing.

TEAMS, AND A FUTURE LOOK NEXT...
PSU will win another Title this year and years to come....Enjoy the ride !!!!
 
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Just as well. Rio is a really long bus ride from Columbus and is having a touch of the flu.
Presumably, by "really long", you mean impossible. There are no roads through the Darien Gap, that straddles the border between Panama and Colombia. Good luck getting a bus across that roughly 60 mile stretch of rain forest!
 
Presumably, by "really long", you mean impossible. There are no roads through the Darien Gap, that straddles the border between Panama and Colombia. Good luck getting a bus across that roughly 60 mile stretch of rain forest!

I think you may know more useless facts than I do, and that's saying something!
 
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Presumably, by "really long", you mean impossible. There are no roads through the Darien Gap, that straddles the border between Panama and Colombia. Good luck getting a bus across that roughly 60 mile stretch of rain forest!
I'm certainly no expert on this matter, but I do recall reading about a Dutch soccer fan who drove from San Francisco to the 2014 World Cup held in Brazil.

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/20...eam-netherlands-spain-salvador-south-america/
 
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Review Addition...

BONUS POINTS
Much is made of the value of Bonus Points at tournaments, whether the Southern Scuffle, Big Ten's, or the NCAA Championships, as the scoring model is the same. Focusing on the NCAA Tournament, a Bonus Point advantage of 6 Points is roughly like having an extra wrestler finishing as an 8th Place AA. An advantage of 9 Points is roughly like having an extra wrestling finishing in 6th Place. And so on...

In 2016, Penn State (with 23) had 7 more Bonus Points than Ohio State and Missouri (with 16), both who had the second-most to the Nittany Lions. And we ended with 9.5 more Bonus Points than 2nd Place Oklahoma State (13.5), which is roughly like adding a 7th Place finisher. Still, with 5 finalists (and plenty of Placement Points), Bonus Points did not turn out as important as in 2013 and 2014.

In 2013, Penn State had 8.5 more Bonus Points than Oklahoma State, and we won by 4 (123.5 to 119.5). In 2014, Penn State had 4.5 more Bonus Points than Minnesota, and we won by 5.5 (109.5 to 104)...meaning we still would have won this year, but the little bit of breathing room does change the dynamics at the time. All points are important, but my feeling about Bonus Points is expressed in the name itself..."Bonus", or extra, or reward.

So, with that said, here's the top-8 teams from 2016, how many Bonus Points they scored at the 2016 NCAA Championships, and how many points graduated, or were earned by wrestlers that have moved on.

School: XX Points (YY Points Graduated)
Penn State
: 23 Points (5 by graduated wrestlers)
Oklahoma State: 13.5 Points (7)
Ohio State: 16 Points (2)
Virginia Tech: 14 Points (0) Note: 7.5 Points by Epperly alone
Iowa: 10 Points (0) Note: 5.5 Points by Gilman alone
Missouri: 16 Points (2)
Cornell: 12 Points (6)
Nebraska: 13.5 Points (5.5)

I recognize this data says little about 2016-17, but it's not worthless either. Oklahoma State lost D-Ringer (5 Bonus Points) and Marsden (2 Bonus Points), so where are this next years "extra" points going to come from? Iowa loses no points, but with 4 more Seniors, better have more than "10" to compete for the top spot in 2017. And lastly, it sure looks like Penn State, Ohio State, Virginia Tech, and Missouri all have lots of Bonus Points returning. Bodes well for a exciting upcoming season.
 
Last edited:
Presumably, by "really long", you mean impossible. There are no roads through the Darien Gap, that straddles the border between Panama and Colombia. Good luck getting a bus across that roughly 60 mile stretch of rain forest!
ever hear of helicopter lifts. In fact by the color scheme on the bus, I'd say that may BE the tOSU bus.

MYAV03P12_03B.0358.jpg
 
Review Addition...

BONUS POINTS
Much is made of the value of Bonus Points at tournaments, whether the Southern Scuffle, Big Ten's, or the NCAA Championships, as the scoring model is the same. Focusing on the NCAA Tournament, a Bonus Point advantage of 6 Points is roughly like having an extra wrestler finishing as an 8th Place AA. An advantage of 9 Points is roughly like having an extra wrestling finishing in 6th Place. And so on...

In 2016, Penn State (with 23) had 7 more Bonus Points than Ohio State and Missouri (with 16), both who had the second-most to the Nittany Lions. And we ended with 9.5 more Bonus Points than 2nd Place Oklahoma State (13.5), which is roughly like adding a 7th Place finisher. Still, with 5 finalists (and plenty of Placement Points), Bonus Points did not turn out as important as in 2013 and 2014.

In 2013, Penn State had 8.5 more Bonus Points than Oklahoma State, and we won by 4 (123.5 to 119.5). In 2014, Penn State had 4.5 more Bonus Points than Minnesota, and we won by 5.5 (109.5 to 104)...meaning we still would have won this year, but the little bit of breathing room does change the dynamics at the time. All points are important, but my feeling about Bonus Points is expressed in the name itself..."Bonus", or extra, or reward.

So, with that said, here's the top-8 teams from 2016, how many Bonus Points they scored at the 2016 NCAA Championships, and how many points graduated, or were earned by wrestlers that have moved on.

School: XX Points (YY Points Graduated)
Penn State
: 23 Points (5 by graduated wrestlers)
Oklahoma State: 13.5 Points (7)
Ohio State: 16 Points (2)
Virginia Tech: 14 Points (0) Note: 7.5 Points by Epperly alone
Iowa: 10 Points (0) Note: 5.5 Points by Gilman alone
Missouri: 16 Points (2)
Cornell: 12 Points (6)
Nebraska: 13.5 Points (5.5)

I recognize this data says little about 2016-17, but it's not worthless either. Oklahoma State lost D-Ringer (5 Bonus Points) and Marsden (2 Bonus Points), so where are this next years "extra" points going to come from. Iowa loses no points, but with 4 more Seniors, better have more than "10" to compete for the top spot in 2017. And lastly, it sure looks like Penn State, Ohio State, Virginia Tech, and Missouri all have lots of Bonus Points returning. Bodes well for a exciting upcoming season.
I think bonus is a big deal, and should be a significant component of the nationals scoring. The 13 point difference between PSU and Iowa is a 5th place finisher. Put another way, if Iowa had won all three finals last year, they still wouldn't have made up for the bonus deficit. Bonus is free points. Go get 'em.
 
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Review Addition...

BONUS POINTS
Much is made of the value of Bonus Points at tournaments, whether the Southern Scuffle, Big Ten's, or the NCAA Championships, as the scoring model is the same. Focusing on the NCAA Tournament, a Bonus Point advantage of 6 Points is roughly like having an extra wrestler finishing as an 8th Place AA. An advantage of 9 Points is roughly like having an extra wrestling finishing in 6th Place. And so on...

In 2016, Penn State (with 23) had 7 more Bonus Points than Ohio State and Missouri (with 16), both who had the second-most to the Nittany Lions. And we ended with 9.5 more Bonus Points than 2nd Place Oklahoma State (13.5), which is roughly like adding a 7th Place finisher. Still, with 5 finalists (and plenty of Placement Points), Bonus Points did not turn out as important as in 2013 and 2014.

In 2013, Penn State had 8.5 more Bonus Points than Oklahoma State, and we won by 4 (123.5 to 119.5). In 2014, Penn State had 4.5 more Bonus Points than Minnesota, and we won by 5.5 (109.5 to 104)...meaning we still would have won this year, but the little bit of breathing room does change the dynamics at the time. All points are important, but my feeling about Bonus Points is expressed in the name itself..."Bonus", or extra, or reward.

So, with that said, here's the top-8 teams from 2016, how many Bonus Points they scored at the 2016 NCAA Championships, and how many points graduated, or were earned by wrestlers that have moved on.

School: XX Points (YY Points Graduated)
Penn State
: 23 Points (5 by graduated wrestlers)
Oklahoma State: 13.5 Points (7)
Ohio State: 16 Points (2)
Virginia Tech: 14 Points (0) Note: 7.5 Points by Epperly alone
Iowa: 10 Points (0) Note: 5.5 Points by Gilman alone
Missouri: 16 Points (2)
Cornell: 12 Points (6)
Nebraska: 13.5 Points (5.5)

I recognize this data says little about 2016-17, but it's not worthless either. Oklahoma State lost D-Ringer (5 Bonus Points) and Marsden (2 Bonus Points), so where are this next years "extra" points going to come from. Iowa loses no points, but with 4 more Seniors, better have more than "10" to compete for the top spot in 2017. And lastly, it sure looks like Penn State, Ohio State, Virginia Tech, and Missouri all have lots of Bonus Points returning. Bodes well for a exciting upcoming season.

Roar have you had the time to examine if bonus points are up or trending up or static?

Wondering if we can draw any info from this and with an eye to the rule changes last season and how the future changes might affect the same.
 
Roar have you had the time to examine if bonus points are up or trending up or static?

Wondering if we can draw any info from this and with an eye to the rule changes last season and how the future changes might affect the same.
year______________ total points

2013_______________1,393
2014_______________1,406.5
2015_______________1,382
2016_______________1,423.5

Too soon to tell, but it appears to have had 'some' effect. I believe there are 1,100 placement and advancement points given at nationals, so if you take the average of 2013-2015 and subtract the 1,100, you arrive at 294 bonus points. 2016 had 324 bonus points, which is an increase of 10% over the average. Obviously, sample size makes this info relatively meaningless.
 
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Review Addition...

BONUS POINTS
Much is made of the value of Bonus Points at tournaments, whether the Southern Scuffle, Big Ten's, or the NCAA Championships, as the scoring model is the same. Focusing on the NCAA Tournament, a Bonus Point advantage of 6 Points is roughly like having an extra wrestler finishing as an 8th Place AA. An advantage of 9 Points is roughly like having an extra wrestling finishing in 6th Place. And so on...

In 2016, Penn State (with 23) had 7 more Bonus Points than Ohio State and Missouri (with 16), both who had the second-most to the Nittany Lions. And we ended with 9.5 more Bonus Points than 2nd Place Oklahoma State (13.5), which is roughly like adding a 7th Place finisher. Still, with 5 finalists (and plenty of Placement Points), Bonus Points did not turn out as important as in 2013 and 2014.

In 2013, Penn State had 8.5 more Bonus Points than Oklahoma State, and we won by 4 (123.5 to 119.5). In 2014, Penn State had 4.5 more Bonus Points than Minnesota, and we won by 5.5 (109.5 to 104)...meaning we still would have won this year, but the little bit of breathing room does change the dynamics at the time. All points are important, but my feeling about Bonus Points is expressed in the name itself..."Bonus", or extra, or reward.

So, with that said, here's the top-8 teams from 2016, how many Bonus Points they scored at the 2016 NCAA Championships, and how many points graduated, or were earned by wrestlers that have moved on.

School: XX Points (YY Points Graduated)
Penn State
: 23 Points (5 by graduated wrestlers)
Oklahoma State: 13.5 Points (7)
Ohio State: 16 Points (2)
Virginia Tech: 14 Points (0) Note: 7.5 Points by Epperly alone
Iowa: 10 Points (0) Note: 5.5 Points by Gilman alone
Missouri: 16 Points (2)
Cornell: 12 Points (6)
Nebraska: 13.5 Points (5.5)

I recognize this data says little about 2016-17, but it's not worthless either. Oklahoma State lost D-Ringer (5 Bonus Points) and Marsden (2 Bonus Points), so where are this next years "extra" points going to come from. Iowa loses no points, but with 4 more Seniors, better have more than "10" to compete for the top spot in 2017. And lastly, it sure looks like Penn State, Ohio State, Virginia Tech, and Missouri all have lots of Bonus Points returning. Bodes well for a exciting upcoming season.

Great stuff Roar. Not that the recent review/stats hasn't been great but this is particular helpful in doing the back-of-the-envelope mental calculations everyone does come tournament time, usually by pulling numbers from who knows where. With the other top D1 teams improving (on paper at least) and with Nico and Mac off to freestyle sunset, it makes sense that bonus will play a bigger part this coming March, despite that Nolf, Bo, and Zain will likely account for the major chunk of them.

Of the new expected starters, Cenzo seems capable of contributing to the bonus bounty based on how he looked at the JR Nationals and Trials, where his year in the room was really evident. FS =/= folk, but he pinned Anthony Valencia at the Nationals and a month later clawed back from an 8-0 deficit (and then a 12-4 deficit) to win in the last second. As with Nolf and Bo, he's not afraid to risk giving up points because he knows he's going to get more; chain wrestling and fearlessness seem to be key elements of bonus club regulars. Has a gas tank too, also evident in the Valencia matches. Suriano might be able to contribute on this front, but it's tough to speculate how he'll transition to D1, but he seemed to wrestle top HS guys close. Cortez? Maybe.
 
Great stuff Roar. Not that the recent review/stats hasn't been great but this is particular helpful in doing the back-of-the-envelope mental calculations everyone does come tournament time, usually by pulling numbers from who knows where. With the other top D1 teams improving (on paper at least) and with Nico and Mac off to freestyle sunset, it makes sense that bonus will play a bigger part this coming March, despite that Nolf, Bo, and Zain will likely account for the major chunk of them.

Of the new expected starters, Cenzo seems capable of contributing to the bonus bounty based on how he looked at the JR Nationals and Trials, where his year in the room was really evident. FS =/= folk, but he pinned Anthony Valencia at the Nationals and a month later clawed back from an 8-0 deficit (and then a 12-4 deficit) to win in the last second. As with Nolf and Bo, he's not afraid to risk giving up points because he knows he's going to get more; chain wrestling and fearlessness seem to be key elements of bonus club regulars. Has a gas tank too, also evident in the Valencia matches. Suriano might be able to contribute on this front, but it's tough to speculate how he'll transition to D1, but he seemed to wrestle top HS guys close. Cortez? Maybe.

I doubt we'll see much bonus pts from 125 and 133 this year based upon styles of Suri and Cortez
 
I doubt we'll see much bonus pts from 125 and 133 this year based upon styles of Suri and Cortez
I doubt it too, but I don't think many expected Zain to become a bonus machine after his TRFR year. Zain's an anomaly in a bunch of ways, but still, a year in the room and some of these guys don't look the same. Nolf and Bo's bonus percentages were much lower in their redshirt years.
 
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