But the women claim they spent 20 to 30 minutes at the 9th hole waiting for the police and nobody showed up behind them.
OT: York golf club owner calls cops on black female members for playing too slow
- Thread starter TenerHallTerror
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If they never complained, as we are now hearing, then there would be no reason to let them play thru.
I know this may seem like a dumb question then, but if no one was behind them, who was complaining that the women were playing too slowly? There are a lot of the "facts" as outlined in this entire thread that don't make a great deal of sense. Like I said in another post, this whole episode seems a little childish. I play a lot of golf, have played behind some extremely slow golfers and have never been denied to either go around the group (if there's an open hole) or to play through.
Agree. Perhaps that is why the women suspect that the purported reason for kicking them off the course was BS.
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anon_xdc8rmuek44eq
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with the benefit of hindsight, realizing now that the owner's dad likely knew the identity of at least one of the women, it seems like "targeted" harassment
again, no one here has explained or defended the "this is what she does" comment
Totally possible, in fact, probable. But that is her story, which may or may not be true.
I'm not much of a golfer anymore, usually only playing in charity tournaments or when a vendor really insists I go out with them. So as a high handicapper I've always been a little befuddled as to why pace of play is such a big f'n deal. The few times I've been asked to pick up the pace I've always thought....."I'm trying up here..wait your pompous impatient ass a little".
It's why I gave up my cc membership several years ago. Also couldn't deal with the snobbery in the clubhouse.
It's why I gave up my cc membership several years ago. Also couldn't deal with the snobbery in the clubhouse.
Most golfers are OK with someone having to hit the ball a lot. What golfers get upset at is people doddling, taking too much time to line up a putt (like it is the deciding putt of the 2018 Ryder Cup), talking, choosing a club, looking for a lost ball, etc. For a good golfer (not me) being in rhythm is no different than a MLB pitcher or whatever.
Because you are slowing up EVERYONE on the course who is behind you. It's like driving 35 mph on a one lane highway where the speed limit is 55. If you do that don't you think you are going to piss off that entire line of traffic behind you? Or would you think "what's the big f'n deal? Why is your time so important?" If you can't keep up the pace of play, you aren't ready for a course yet. Try the range or a chip and putt until you are.
I learned that golf and me are not a good match so I switched to my leisure pursuits to cycling. Now I only piss off impatient motorists that have to wait to get around me.
In addition to slowing maybe 100s of people behind you, you and other players are costing the course money. If it takes 6 hours to play, maybe 500 people can play an 18-hole Golf Course. If it takes 4 hours to play, maybe 700 people can play the golf course.
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riiiiiiight but these golfers were experienced. they knew the etiquette. I think they would have allowed the group behind them to play through if this were an issue
I was talking in general not about this particular issue. Most golf courses are not super vigilant about slow play. Some are. I would like for more facts to come out. Again, it would be very interesting to see how long it actually took the women to play 9 holes. If it took them 3 hours, the golf course has reasonable grounds. If it took the women 2 hours or two hours and 15 minutes, the golf course has no defense.
according to the video, the owner says they got off the 9th green at 1245
according to the golf course, the group had a tee time around 10AM, but were delayed almost an hour due to frost
You can't play a golf course when it has frost. What they are talking about is the start was delayed by 1 hour. If it took them 2 hours and 45 minutes to play, that is slow. On the other hand, no one was behind them and most people wouldn't care. A few golf courses would monitor people even if they weren't crowded just to emphasize the importance of playing fast, so that on busy days, everyone is in the routine of playing fast. If that was the case, there would be a history of asking a fair amount of other players to leave, because a fair amount of players have difficulty in playing golf in four or four and a half hours.
approx 11AM --> 1245 = 1 hr 45 min
and the group behind them never complained.
the father of the owner approached them on the SECOND HOLE and told them they were playing too slow
Nothing to see here.They should have known that a five some is not allowed.This stuff is getting rediculous.
From the York Dispatch yesterday.
Next steps: Ojo, who works as a director of diversity and inclusion for the state Turnpike Commission, said she's trained to understand discrimination, and she was able to easily discern that Grandview discriminated against her group.
JJ Chronister has pointed out that they've asked other players to leave for pace-of-play issues, per club policy, but Ojo said the only rule they broke was "playing golf as black women."
The five women are part of a local women's golf group that has been around since 2008, and they understand golf etiquette. They got permission to play as a group of five — golf groups are usually limited to four — and they kept the group playing ahead of them in their sight at all times, skipping hole 3 to keep up, they said.
That statement supports the owners position that the group was playing very slowly and was at least one hole behind the group in front of them.
Next steps: Ojo, who works as a director of diversity and inclusion for the state Turnpike Commission, said she's trained to understand discrimination, and she was able to easily discern that Grandview discriminated against her group.
JJ Chronister has pointed out that they've asked other players to leave for pace-of-play issues, per club policy, but Ojo said the only rule they broke was "playing golf as black women."
The five women are part of a local women's golf group that has been around since 2008, and they understand golf etiquette. They got permission to play as a group of five — golf groups are usually limited to four — and they kept the group playing ahead of them in their sight at all times, skipping hole 3 to keep up, they said.
That statement supports the owners position that the group was playing very slowly and was at least one hole behind the group in front of them.
oh you know so much about golf . . .
according to the scorecard, Hole 1 is a par 5 (478 yds from the black tee)
Hole 2 is a par 4 (418 yds from the black tee)
Hole 3 and 4 are back to back par 3s (142 and 165 yds respectively)
Hole 3 and 4 and handicap 15 and 17, which means they are 2 of the easiest holes on the course.
ANY group could easily be finishing up Hole 2 when the group in front of them is finishing Hole 3, especially if the group in front is smaller
but anything to call this something other than racism . . .
I thought of this analogy as well. But in most of the articles, and I have not seen it refuted at all, they state that they were within site of the group in front of them and couldn't have gone much, if any, faster. So back to the analogy, this is like calling the police on the second car in line, one that is a reasonable distance behind.
As someone who has also taken training on inclusion, unconscious bias, etc., it seems pretty obvious that the group behind looked at the group of women, and thought they would play slow, since they were women (most likely) or black (less likely). This bias would be based only on perception.
How many golfers that prefer a fast pace can say they have not looked at people and thought, "crap, we have to play behind them, I KNOW they are going to be slow."
I wonder if there were words exchanged between the golf pro and the old man Chronister. I wonder if the old man got pissed that the pro allowed a 5-some and figured he'd go "rectify" the matter. In any case, I'd like to know how old man Chronister functioned in life thus far.
Virtually never. Experienced golfers just want to get around the golf course in a reasonable amount of time. You can watch people play for 10 or 15 minutes and easily see whether they can get around or not. Slow players don't pay attention to what they are doing and quite often hit the ball poorly. Slow players are quite often just meandering around the golf course instead of taking the most direct route to their shots. .
The guy complained about slow play on the second hole. I've never seen anyone do that.
and he wasn't even playing!!!
see my post above about the course. Par 5 and a Par 4 to start the front 9. followed by 2 easy Par 3s. it is easy to imagine a group struggling on the first hole. A smaller group ahead of them could easily be teeing off on #4 before they finished #2
This comment doesn't make sense. If they kept the group in front of them within sight why did they have to skip a hole to keep up?
Question on the Starbucks case...these guys were going in for a sit down to discuss some kind of business opportunity. They were told they could not use the bathroom as for paying customers only. I have had that happen to me before, it was a Starbucks, why didn't they just order a small cup of coffee or buy a bottle of water. Isn't that the most simple thing to do considering you are going to be using their establishment for free for an extended period of time. If they wanted a free place to meet, just goto the library. If I go into a Starbucks or a Dunkin Donuts or wherever and they say i have to buy something to use the restroom, i find the cheapest thing on the menu and buy it.
We are all failed in one fashion or another. IMO, an awful lot less so than when I was a child quite a few years--but some refuse to acknowledge that.
The same sort of thing as modern historians, high and mighty, looking down on those of another age.
While I am at it, reading a book review of Martin Luther King's time at Crozier seminary, the writer noted that King was a frequent plagiarist and a ball hog while playing basketball.
(or we are all falliable to one degree or another)
Maybe the poster is not.
And while I am at it, does anybody remember the thought that there are "two sides to every story." Apparently not in this age, of I'm right and you're wrong.
The problem with that is under your scenario, the group could have been 2 holes behind the group in front of them, not just one. When they came off of No. 2, and skipped No. 3, they were able to play No 4; which means that the group in front of them had already cleared No. 4. This assumes that because of the frost delay groups were stacked on No 1.
It appears that the ladies were not on pace, which is a problem for golf courses. What we don't know is how heavy the play was that day which is an important factor. Were the ladies holding up play with their slow play? Did the group in front of them tee off just before the ladies?
A lot of information is missing, but jump at your conclusions if you want; after all it is a free country.
I wasn't making any judgment about the women playing in York. I was addressing CF Lion's ignorant remark, i.e. "I've always been a little befuddled as to why pace of play is such a big f'n deal."
if the group in front of them had only 3 players, it is ENTIRELY feasible, and not a "slow pace" issue that they were putting on #4 as the women were approaching the tee for Hole #3
do you understand math at all? go write another crappy book.
I know you didn't say it was just quoting that part of the article from your message
Why would they have to skip a hole to keep pace if the group in front of them were within their sight?
step 1 - ignore GTA4
step 2 - please look at the scorecard for this course. so much gesticulating to blame the women when feasible explanations based in physical reality exist
Steve Chronister, a former York County Commissioner, once questioned the need for library funding, saying that he wasn’t much of a reader, that golf was his pastime, and that the government wasn’t subsidizing his greens fees.
if the group in front of them had only 3 players, it is ENTIRELY feasible, and not a "slow pace" issue that they were putting on #4 as the women were approaching the tee for Hole #3
You are correct based on your assumption. But lets assume the group in front was a foursome or a fivesome. You have to agree that based on that assumption, it was a slow play issue.
To repeat, there are so many facts that we don't know which makes it premature to jump to conclusions.
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