Noteworthy Results & Goldfish Games — Conference Championships 2023

[dicemen99]

My only issue with the push out is how it works with mat wrestling. Does it only apply when the two wrestlers start neutral? If you get an escape near the edge can you be pushed out? I also think the push out rule rewards not trying to finish a shot. In folk it’s a 2-1 exchange with a TD and a release. Why even finish the takedown if you can just walk a guy to the edge for 1 repeatedly?

Those are two excellent points - unintended consequences, indeed. Top wrestlers will be rewarded for moving action toward the edge when an escape is imminent or they are not going to contest it. And guys with no top game are not incentivized to finish TDs as you point out. Never really considered them before, but they are very solid arguments against the push-out rule in folk.

I don't have too much of a problem with how it is called now. The first year was terrible, but I think most refs (and wrestlers) have adapted. In general, I think:

• If you walk straight back off the mat, you usually get hit no matter what the circumstances.
• If you are escaping a TD and go out, you usually get hit
• If you are shot off the mat, it just becomes another data point toward a stall call. If you have been defensive before the OOB or had your butt stuck on the line for 30 seconds, you get hit. If not, it's usually "action" but counts as a data point.
• If a guy blatantly pushes - with two outstretched hands - the wrestler inbounds will occasionally get hit

I think this is fine. I would categorize the Hidlay match under the 3rd bullet point. You let him push you around with the underhook a few times, it adds up and you get called. Your fault. I would categorize the first Parris stall call as the 1st bullet point. He walked backward three steps straight off the mat. It may have just been a momentum thing that he got caught with, but it created a bad look and it's usually going to get called.

 

[El-Jefe]

Or make push out only apply to when wrestlers start a sequence in neutral (start of period, out of bounds, stalemate, etc).

I'd love to see reaching for the hardwood floor be an automatic penalty point plus a stall call.

I don't like the first idea. It gives guys a blank check to hang out at the boundary for nearly a full period. After some time after escaping, you've established neutral and it should be considered the same risk as if you backed up there.

Second idea is 100% right. Only time I've seen that called as a penalty point was when Coltin Fought lifted the mat off the floor in the state finals. BUT: for safety reasons, mats should be bigger, with more out-of-bounds space. So this idea shouldn't be needed. (Except it is.)

 

[CSauertiegPSU]

We as fans fret too much about escapes near the edge. To the point where it starts to sound like an excuse. (Not pointing at Clay here, just general sentiment.)

Draw a second circle away from the boundary. Escape between the circles and immediately go out, no point. After some defined time (2 sec? 5 sec?), you've established neutral and can be pushed out.

This isn't difficult, no need to make it so.

Give refs more to focus on? Not sure I’m with ya here. Who’s going to be watching the boundary or handling the count? I don’t know. I just don’t think the current rule set is a significant enough issue that it needs to be changed in such a drastic way.

 

[El-Jefe]

Give refs more to focus on? Not sure I’m with ya here. Who’s going to be watching the boundary or handling the count? I don’t know. I just don’t think the current rule set is a significant enough issue that it needs to be changed in such a drastic way.

How are these more to focus on than what direction they go out and who causes it? Aren't the refs watching the boundary now? Counting to 5 now?

I can see not changing the rules. But then we can't be upset if we don't like how they're applied.

 

[CSauertiegPSU]

How are these more to focus on than what direction they go out and who causes it? Aren't the refs watching the boundary now? Counting to 5 now?

I can see not changing the rules. But then we can't be upset if we don't like how they're applied.

Well you’d be adding an extra boundary. But I agree on changing the count. I don’t think changing rules necessarily eliminates officiating questions. There are plenty of those discussions in free. Ultimately they’re never going away you’d just like a little more discretion. The lack of clear cut definition of stalling definitely works against referees but I think there are clearly situations where they could use a bit more deductive reasoning.

 

[a_mshaffer]

We as fans fret too much about escapes near the edge. To the point where it starts to sound like an excuse. (Not pointing at Clay here, just general sentiment.)

Draw a second circle away from the boundary. Escape between the circles and immediately go out, no point. After some defined time (2 sec? 5 sec?), you've established neutral and can be pushed out.

This isn't difficult, no need to make it so.

how about on bottom when I stand up and you push me out or my momentum takes me out while trying to turn in... I don't break free though? I like the idea of a bigger mat? I like the Iowa or OK St mat (can't remember which one) that made a very large one

 

[El-Jefe]

how about on bottom when I stand up and you push me out or my momentum takes me out while trying to turn in... I don't break free though? I like the idea of a bigger mat? I like the Iowa or OK St mat (can't remember which one) that made a very large one

Driven out by top is not obviously solved with a pushout rule. Also a current issue not being solved.

By the large mat, you mean the Iowa mat from a several decades ago to prevent OKST boundary hugging, that was approximately the size of the state of Iowa?

 

[Cstroke]

When Warner ran Dean out and Tom/Terry yelled "C'mon he's running out of bounds." LOL it's all about perception.

 

[a_mshaffer]

Driven out by top is not obviously solved with a pushout rule. Also a current issue not being solved.

By the large mat, you mean the Iowa mat from a several decades ago to prevent OKST boundary hugging, that was approximately the size of the state of Iowa?

yea... solve all problems except for spectator room and # of concurrent matches

 

[RoarLions1]

Stalling has been discussed ad nauseam since before I joined the ranks of full-blooded college wrestling fan in 1974. I have recollections of several, but not all of the rule changes in that era, and all of the changes in the past 20 years. I have memory of a small starting circle, not two lines like is there today, and if a wrestler stepped out before engaging, a stall would be called. It could be the first second of the bout, which when I think about it now -- it's ludicrous.

Point is, while the discussion in this thread is good, I don't see a fix to the challenges faced by referees for calling stalling given all the iterations already tried. There are as many ideas/opinions as there are people for this somewhat subjective subject, and therein lies the problem.

In college we're dealing with 18-24 year olds. I'd hate to get to a point where a 24 year old (or thereabouts), with man muscles after many years in a college room, is pushing a younger wrestle out-of-bounds to win matches on stalling calls. I am ok with it in freestyle.

 

[dicemen99]

When Warner ran Dean out and Tom/Terry yelled "C'mon he's running out of bounds." LOL it's all about perception.

100%. Same with the neutral pushout. My perception is that it is being called pretty consistently. The only time it isn't is when it is called against a guy I'm rooting for, lol. I know somebody is going to point out a couple of exceptions, but this is being called routinely and a few exceptions are not going to change my mind, just like the few exceptions of hands to the face (Facundo match) and other rules mean there is a problem.

I used to be a 1-pt pushout rule guy after I saw it work in freestyle, but now I am onboard 100% with the NCAA rule for folk. I don't think it is a problem in any way.

Doesn't anybody on here watch HS wrestling anymore??? If you did regularly, you would never complain about NCAA officiating again.

 

[Psalm 1 guy]

I don't like the first idea. It gives guys a blank check to hang out at the boundary for nearly a full period. After some time after escaping, you've established neutral and it should be considered the same risk as if you backed up there.

Second idea is 100% right. Only time I've seen that called as a penalty point was when Coltin Fought lifted the mat off the floor in the state finals. BUT: for safety reasons, mats should be bigger, with more out-of-bounds space. So this idea shouldn't be needed. (Except it is.)

I did see Angel ding Romero for the two point stalling call for purposely reaching off the mat near the end of the match. It looked like Aaron was grinning about it as he walked back to center : )

 

[CSauertiegPSU]

100%. Same with the neutral pushout. My perception is that it is being called pretty consistently. The only time it isn't is when it is called against a guy I'm rooting for, lol. I know somebody is going to point out a couple of exceptions, but this is being called routinely and a few exceptions are not going to change my mind, just like the few exceptions of hands to the face (Facundo match) and other rules mean there is a problem.

I used to be a 1-pt pushout rule guy after I saw it work in freestyle, but now I am onboard 100% with the NCAA rule for folk. I don't think it is a problem in any way.

Doesn't anybody on here watch HS wrestling anymore??? If you did regularly, you would never complain about NCAA officiating again.

Another thing that gets lost when discussing the the push out rule is how bad the grounded rule is. Guys drop to a knee all the time to game the system and almost never gets called

 

[nitlion6]

I just don’t see how you change it though. I don’t think it’s stalling. He’s trying to get you pushing back into him and then either scores off that or off of guys coming up out of their stance. It’s boring and it’s sort of lame. But I don’t think it’s stalling. And I’m freestyle rules he’d score a ton on step outs and cautions.

It is much a stall as Sam Stoll tying up the arms and driving the guy straight backwards out of bounds, and Sam should have been called every time after the first or second.
Plus, most guys do push back. They don't typically fade backwards without resistance.

If there is resistance to the push and you don't initiate a move, but continue to push forward like a bulldozer until you drive your opponent OOB you are stalling.

 

[nitlion6]

Driven out by top is not obviously solved with a pushout rule. Also a current issue not being solved.

By the large mat, you mean the Iowa mat from a several decades ago to prevent OKST boundary hugging, that was approximately the size of the state of Iowa?

It was actually against Oklahoma.

 

[BruceK-PSU83]

"PSU lean" was overrated. In reality, Popolizio had closer ties thanks to his many years in NY. And that's where Poulin went, before transferring.

Second, we had Howard.

This^^. Never understood where the “strong PSU lean” ever came from for Poulson, other than maybe typical message board wishful thinking. Poulson’s high school is near my local area. While no insider, I always assumed that NC State was the team to beat, given Popplizio’s ties and history in the area (Nick Gwiz is another example).

 

[District four]

Just pointing out the only championship the Hawks have won since 2010 was won after Larry presented Tom the all important binder. Larry working the pre-portal has been beneficial also, as has having a 125 pounder that you can pencil in 25 to 28 points. The 125 pounder is almost done, you need to keep the guy who recruits other program's athletes as a representative of a small liberal arts college a few miles down the road, and his binder.

I did see Angel ding Romero for the two point stalling call for purposely reaching off the mat near the end of the match. It looked like Aaron was grinning about it as he walked back to center : )

I saw that and thought the same thing

 

[GogglesPaizano]

I like the idea of a bungee attached from above mat center to the top of a harness that each wrestler wears. The bungee can stretch only to 1' short of the OB circle.

It works pretty well with my dog when camping.

 

[82bordeaux]

I did see Angel ding Romero for the two point stalling call for purposely reaching off the mat near the end of the match. It looked like Aaron was grinning about it as he walked back to center : )

And Aaron did the same thing in the 2021 final against Hidlay.
He definitely grabbed the edge of the mat when Hidlay was trying to finish a single leg.

 

[Chickenman Testa]

And Aaron did the same thing in the 2021 final against Hidlay.
He definitely grabbed the edge of the mat when Hidlay was trying to finish a single leg.

The exact same scenario would have been Hidlay doing it - after stalling for 6 minutes. Dinging AB after 6 minutes of Hidlay’s stallapalooza would have been an injustice