Wrestling LIVE THREAD: Penn State vs. Iowa

jmadden1998

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Jan 26, 2017
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You keep saying left arm... hey bozo, the video CLEARLY shows Starocci RIGHT ARM hooked completely around Kem's lower left leg elbow-deep with 5 seconds left (i.e., the elbow-deep hook is towards Starocci's body). The video then shows Starocci going to a head-to-mat position to relieve pressure on his RIGHT ARM that is clearly hooked elbow-deep completely around Kem's lower leg with hand back towards his own body. Once Starocci goes head-to-mat, you can't see his right arm, right shoulder or head but there is ZERO evidence on the video that anything changes relative to Starocci's right-arm hook during the last 5 seconds. You're full of shit that there is, just like you're full of shit that the RBY-AD series you referenced was an analogous series - IT WASN'T! Just like you were full of shit that there was no whizzer involved in the Kem-Starocci series.... and that I "don't know what a whizzer is!

You keep making baseless claims doesn't make them reality dipwad.
 

CJFisJoePaII

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Sep 6, 2019
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If Starocci still had the inside lock on the leg then I agree with you, no TD. I thought he lost the leg based on the change in Kem’s leg position and Starocci arm, in which case it becomes a TD. The latter was the basis for my opinion

If you look at video, Starocci readjusts his grip on Kem's leg with about 5 seconds to go - specifically, he goes below Kem's knee and locks his right arm around Kem's lower left leg elbow-deep with hand/fist coming back towards his body. Starocci then immediately goes head-to-mat to relieve pressure on arm as Kem is pushing straight-down on his shoulder joint. Once Starocci goes head-to-mat with 5 seconds, you can no longer see what is going on with his right arm, shoulder or head as you can't see them as the camera angle is blocked by Starocci's lower-body and Kem's body. But there is no video evidence that anything changes during the last 5 seconds relative to Starocci's right arm. In addition, I just looked at the video again, stopping it each of the last 5 seconds and Kem is still whizzering Carter's right arm all the way through time expiring. This alone means no TD without full Merkel in - IOW, the wrestlers are shoulder-to-shoulder with Kem still whizzering Carter with his left arm as time expires.... Kem is not fully behind Carter's right arm and armpit with a chest wrap. No way is that position a 2T without a full Merkel in.
 
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Cowbell Man

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Feb 2, 2002
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If you look at video, Starocci readjusts his grip on Kem's leg with about 5 seconds to go - specifically, he goes below Kem's knee and locks his right arm around Kem's lower left leg elbow-deep with hand/fist coming back towards his body. Starocci then immediately goes head-to-mat to relieve pressure on arm as Kem is pushing straight-down on his shoulder joint. Once Starocci goes head-to-mat with 5 seconds, you can no longer see what is going on with his right arm, shoulder or head as you can't see them as the camera angle is blocked by Starocci's lower-body and Kem's body. But there is no video evidence that anything changes during the last 5 seconds relative to Starocci's right arm. In addition, I just looked at the video again, stopping it each of the last 5 seconds and Kem is still whizzering Carter's right arm all the way through time expiring. This alone means no TD without full Merkel in - IOW, the wrestlers are shoulder-to-shoulder with Kem still whizzering Carter with his left arm as time expires.... Kem is not fully behind Carter's right arm and armpit with a chest wrap. No way is that position a 2T without a full Merkel in.
Funny people can look at video and see two different things. Until you said Ken was whizzering Carter with his left arm, I was going to go with your analysis. Are we talking about the time expiring video review event?
If not it must be another spot,
If yes, then Kems left arm is around Carters neck (Carters left side) and his right arm behind Carters right shoulder/armpit. Before time expires, Carters right hand, which previously was hooked around Kems knee preventing the Merkel, is now free and not grabbing anything. Arm maybe not free entirely.

Anyway. That’ s what I see. It was a tough call. I get it.
Deans was not tough. Not on any level. There is simply no basis for Warner have any control of anything, save perhaps his bladder.
 

pawrestlersintn

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Jan 26, 2013
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Correct on both counts.

I'll never understand why wrestling has spectators for 2nd refs. This is like having only the home plate umpire make every call in a baseball game.
Because making sure the wrestlers are in bounds, which appears to be the only thing the second ref is good for, is ultra-important.
 
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Cstroke

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Feb 10, 2019
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How many season ending injuries have you seen from the bow and arrow?
how many from an arm bar?
I can’t think of one from a bow and arrow, and as long as they continue to monitor that they don’t twist the knee I doubt Ill see any.
 

kps7987

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Aug 27, 2016
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BYW, you're full of shit that the RBY - AD clip you provided is analogous. RBY does not have hold of AD's leg - nor does AD whizzer RBY in response making him side-to-side with RBY. The two situations ARE NOT ANALOGOUS dipshit. In the situation where Starocci has ahold of Kem's leg, Kem absolutely has to have the Merkel completely in to negate Starocci's hold of his leg and be give T2 - simply having his leg through Starocci's legs is not sufficient as it was in the situation you referenced because Starocci had hold of Kem's leg (whereas RBY did not have hold of AD's leg and AD was fully behind RBY's armpit and arm on RBY's right side). Again NOT ANALOGOUS and full Merkel absolutely required by Kem in that situation where Starocci has hold of a leg to gain T2.
You're so full of shit - the video shows no such thing! Starocci's right arm is completely locked around Kem's lower leg as he goes head down to mat (Starocci intentionally goes head down to mat so his right-shoulder is right next to Kem's knee/lower-leg and make it easier to keep Kem's lower leg securely hooked with his right-arm - which he clearly does in the video contrary to your absurd claims.)

Let's see how many times you've been full of shit in this string:

Claim that RBY-AD position is analogous when it wasn't as RBY NEVER had AD's leg, nor did AD EVER put in a whizzer. AD didn't need full Merkel as RBY never had his leg - Kem absolutely did to negate Starocci's leg hold for a 2T to be awarded

Claim that there was never a whizzer in the Kem-Starocci series - full of shit, there absolutely was a very clear whizzer by Kem in response to Starocci's leg hold which is what put wrestlers side-by-side.

Claim that video shows Starocci losing control of Kem's lower left leg which he has hooked with his right arm... - again, full of shit, the video shows no such thing and shows quite the opposite in fact! You reference Starocci's left arm when video clearly shows that Starocci has lower leg hooked elbow-deep with his RIGHT ARM as he goes head down to mat to make it easier to hold with about 5 seconds left. You cannot see Starocci's right arm, shoulder or head in the final seconds of the video as he's gone into a head down position to make it easy to keep Kem's lower leg hooked with right arm but you can't see them because Kem is in front of them. But there is zero evidence in video that the position changes at all during the last 5 seconds (and you can see Starocci has lower leg very clearly hooked elbow-deep with his right arm as he goes down into head-on-mat position with about 5 seconds left.
You can see exactly what JS is saying in the video. I don't know the rules that much to comment on when the takedown occurs but your allowing your fandom to influence your decisions. I find JS to be a very respectful poster on this board and brings good insight. You should practice the art of thoughtful debate as you are coming off very poorly.
 

82bordeaux

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Nov 19, 2019
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PSUAllTheWay

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Jan 18, 2015
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Looks like we need a Rules Interpretation thread just like our COVID one so every match thread doesn't extend for 6 extra pages talking about refereeing ...
 
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CJFisJoePaII

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Sep 6, 2019
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Funny people can look at video and see two different things. Until you said Ken was whizzering Carter with his left arm, I was going to go with your analysis. Are we talking about the time expiring video review event?
If not it must be another spot,
If yes, then Kems left arm is around Carters neck (Carters left side) and his right arm behind Carters right shoulder/armpit. Before time expires, Carters right hand, which previously was hooked around Kems knee preventing the Merkel, is now free and not grabbing anything. Arm maybe not free entirely.

Anyway. That’ s what I see. It was a tough call. I get it.
Deans was not tough. Not on any level. There is simply no basis for Warner have any control of anything, save perhaps his bladder.

Just went back and re-looked at end. As I said, I was focusing on freezing the last 5 seconds - second by second. Starting at 5 seconds you can't see Kem's left arm - I thought it was buried in whizzer, but reading your post I went back and looked at the entire series which started with Carter shooting and gaining a head-inside single with about 25 seconds remaining. As Starocci sucks his leg in Kem goes to a whizzer at the same time Carter hooks Kems lower right leg and ankle with his left leg at which point they both go to mat in a side-by-side position and Kem driving whizzer hard. This position persists for about 6 or 7 seconds and at about the 10 second mark Kem takes his left arm out of whizzer and reaches up-&-over Storroci's left shoulder and headlocks Carter (this is what I didn't see when I was freeze-framing the final 5 seconds - second by second. Again, starting at 5 seconds you can't see Kem's left arm because Carter has gone head-to-mat, I thought it was still buried in whizzer, but you are right - when you go out a bit further, Kem takes the left arm out of whizzer at 10 second mark and headlocks.). However, when Kem headlocks his shoulders go over-top Carter's shoulders and he is clearly not "behind Starocci's shoulders" similar to AD's position vs RBY he referenced, which was the original claim by the OP (i.e., that the AD-RBY position & series he referenced were analogous to this situation, which is complete bullshit, they aren't analogous in the least as to positioning or how they came about. AD had a chest-wrap on RBY and is completely behind RBY's arm and effectively tucked fully behind RBY's armpit and arm.). When Kemerer went to headlock his left shoulder is past Starocci's right shoulder which is the only thing that makes the headlock physically possible - Kem's right shoulder is way past Starocci's right shoulder which again is physically necessary as he's reaching back across his own body to complete headlock. Again, so the original claim that he is behind Carter's shoulders similar to the AD-RBY series he referenced is utter bullshit and completely fabricated. From the high-position Kemerer was in over top Carter's shoulders, not BEHIND them, a full Merkel would be required to award T2 and control.

In regards to Storroci's hold of Kem's lower leg below the knee, Carter clearly has a hold of his leg at 2 second mark and as Carter keeps shifting his leg to left (and over top of Kem's lower-leg), you can no longer see Carter's right arm or determine when he lets go of Kem's lower left leg -- it appears he doesn't let go until horn sounds ending match, then Rivera awards T2 (clearly after clock expired) and then Carter looks up at Rivera like wtf are you talking about, I just let go of him because reg time over.....
 
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RoarLions1

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May 11, 2012
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Good balanced summary. I am curious of your take on the PSU challenge at the end of the 1st period in the Dean/Warner match. When Warner lost his lock it sure seemed like Dean had control. Why no reversal of the call?
At the 4 second mark, I saw Dean break Warner's lock on his leg. That alone was at least an escape. The whole Winn Dixie thing in those final seconds and the discussion about a 3-count (neutral danger, as Dean control was not established imo) is predicated on Dean holding Warner at <90 degrees. It was close. My opinion is no reversal, but yes to an escape.

I wonder how Cael worded his challenge. It may have impacted what Rivera was looking for.

This leads me back to a comment I've made other places. A ref reviewing his own work is not a good idea. Even when right, there will always be suspicion. $$$'s are surely the reason why a third party review isn't done except in post-season (pretty sure).
 

El-Jefe

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Jul 27, 2012
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I forbid myself to waste any mental energy on imagining what Bushwick looks like. However, if I were to allow myself to wastefully expend that energy I am certain that is not the image my mind would conjure.

Hard as this may be for a red-blooded man: look closer at the feathers.
 

SCub

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Feb 20, 2021
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At the 4 second mark, I saw Dean break Warner's lock on his leg. That alone was at least an escape. The whole Winn Dixie thing in those final seconds and the discussion about a 3-count (neutral danger, as Dean control was not established imo) is predicated on Dean holding Warner at <90 degrees. It was close. My opinion is no reversal, but yes to an escape.

I wonder how Cael worded his challenge. It may have impacted what Rivera was looking for.

This leads me back to a comment I've made other places. A ref reviewing his own work is not a good idea. Even when right, there will always be suspicion. $$$'s are surely the reason why a third party review isn't done except in post-season (pretty sure).
I agree that independent reviews is important. Also the “separation” rule for an escape a
is confusing and Dean never actually separated. But he clearly had control. I’d love to hear Cael’s challenge as well as Angel’s interpretation.

edit: I don’t think the neutral danger rule applies since they weren’t “neutral”.
 

KCLion

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Jun 8, 2001
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I agree that independent reviews is important. Also the “separation” rule for an escape a
is confusing and Dean never actually separated. But he clearly had control. I’d love to hear Cael’s challenge as well as Angel’s interpretation.

edit: I don’t think the neutral danger rule applies since they weren’t “neutral”.
I’d like to hear it too as well as the 2nd official input.
 

RoarLions1

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May 11, 2012
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I agree that independent reviews is important. Also the “separation” rule for an escape a
is confusing and Dean never actually separated. But he clearly had control. I’d love to hear Cael’s challenge as well as Angel’s interpretation.

edit: I don’t think the neutral danger rule applies since they weren’t “neutral”.
My reference to neutral danger only applies if the escape was awarded. The announcers actually went down the route of it being a reversal.
 

CJFisJoePaII

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Sep 6, 2019
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I agree that independent reviews is important. Also the “separation” rule for an escape a
is confusing and Dean never actually separated. But he clearly had control. I’d love to hear Cael’s challenge as well as Angel’s interpretation.

edit: I don’t think the neutral danger rule applies since they weren’t “neutral”.

The Ref can call a delayed escape in this situation - i.e., ESC has occurred (iow, top wrestler has lost control) but wrestlers have not separated - the Ref can award the delayed ESC if the wrestlers go OB or period ends. So the rule is not ambiguous relative to the awarding of ESC here when Warner clearly lost control - IOW, it should have been awarded at the end of period at the very least. But if you look at video of end of 1st Period, you will see that Warner gives up his control of Dean's leg after Dean Wynn Dixies him and puts him directly on his back starting at the 4 second mark (specifically, Warner lets go of Dean's leg so he can fight to get off his back and fight the Wynn Dixie Dean has just put on him.). Warner remains on his back, at one point going completely flat for the full 4 seconds until the period ends. Had Rivera called the Reversal after Dean controlled him for final 4 seconds after Dean had taken control with Wynn Dixie and actively holding him in an exposed position against his will for the final 4 seconds....., an ESC would not be awarded under delayed ESC rule - a Reversal and backs (i.e., Near Fall exposure points) would be awarded to Dean. But for Angel Rivera to call or award neither in actual time or on review is off the charts RIDICULOUS!
 
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