Is Franklin content with being mediocre?
- Thread starter PSUWrestlingFanSince2011
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The excuse this year is OSU had MHJr. Which is so lame. If we had close to a competent offense we probably are winning that game. Also a scoop and score is negated because our supposed first round corner is mugging MHJr for no reason. Again, well coached teams make clutch plays in big games. We never see that. As for Michigan, I have heard no good reason why they just sped past us and are clearly better except they cheat. Well that is another lame excuse as they won all their difficult games this year after all of that came out.
These apologists never hold him accountable for the revolving OC. That Yurcich debacle is totally on him. Finally, we are not physical enough at the line of scrimmage. Our O-Line has improved but it is not where it needs to be and our D Line has athletes like DDS, Durant, Ellies but they have difficulty getting in the backfield and wreaking havoc.
1000%. A competent offense at least splits vs OSU and Mich. And, Kalen being a projected 1st rounder was laughable and insane -- he was cooked all year, and in the biggest game as well. There is a reason why Manny featured Dixon on all the CB blitzes and trusted him to be a difference maker. In our biggest games, the 'perceived' best players on the team have to step up and make those game deciding plays. But, from Allar, to King, to even Olu who had I thought his worst game of the season up against JTT, they struggled.
Our OL has improved, but not good enough. The interior was very average, while both tackles certainly were the strength. I'm not as sold on Traut as everyone else.
And our DL, it's time for DDS, who was a high level recruit, to turn the corner and be a game wrecker. Durant, Ellies, Beamon are all just guys -- undersized who grind, but not the game alterering, LOS changing players that Michigan has.
JF et al have a TON of work to do.
I would have expected DDS to have already blossomed so to speak so not sure what is going on. Really hope now in his third year he plays like the 5 star recruit he was because we need him to be dominant. The freshman Lyons is impressing at Edge from what I can gather.
The offensive line is a question mark for sure. There is talent like Donkoh who played well in the Peach Bowl at a new position (tackle) and will get better. Williams is a very good talent as well and should start for us at tackle. We also have Birchmeier who was redshirted last season. Another bigtime recruit. We have other guys who have played a decent amount like Shelton and Dawkins. Trautwein seems to get good talent like those mentioned above and the incoming Cooper Cousins who is a 96 rating and the #53 prospect overall.
To me next season comes down to at U$C, at Wisky then of course OSU in HV and UDub in HV. I'm banking JF can win the other 8 without screwing it up so it comes down to those games.
USC concerns me but maybe I shouldn't be that concerned. They have taken steps to improve their defense. JF is just so lousy on the road against a quality opponent. I don't know if USC will be a quality opponent or not but my guess is they will be pretty good at the very least.
Wisky has that transfer QB from Miami I think but we absolutely should beat them. Again, another game JF has to win and not crap the bed.
I like our shot vs UDub with a new coach and we get them in HV.
Then there is our nemesis. OSU. They very well could come into the Beav #1 and undefeated. Man, Franklin could erase a lot of bad bitter memories I have if he could pull that one off. That is a huge, huge hurdle. Hoping their KSU portal QB is not that great and they still have offensive line trouble.
One could argue that the best predictor of the "better team" or team that is expected to win is the Vegas point spread. Here's a fun stat, in the past 10 years Penn State is the 6th best in the country at covering the spread and the best in the Big 10. I know this won't convince the constant and repetitive griping from the haters but like it or not Franklin is a top 10 coach in CFB and we are lucky to have him.
With the recent coaching churn (Harbaugh, Saban) now there are exactly 3 active coaches that have won a national title (Mack Brown, Dabo, Kirby Smart), but if you only read threads here you'd think every top program's coach has won them, and every blue blood competes for one annually. Spoiler alert, many other blue blood programs and their coaches don't have one. It's a fact that it's damn hard to be a championship winning team, and PSU is performing about where they usually do historically, good to very good just about every year but not a consistent national title contender.
With the recent coaching churn (Harbaugh, Saban) now there are exactly 3 active coaches that have won a national title (Mack Brown, Dabo, Kirby Smart), but if you only read threads here you'd think every top program's coach has won them, and every blue blood competes for one annually. Spoiler alert, many other blue blood programs and their coaches don't have one. It's a fact that it's damn hard to be a championship winning team, and PSU is performing about where they usually do historically, good to very good just about every year but not a consistent national title contender.
I think some of our fans have too much of an ego to admit that PSU simply isn't as good as some of these other programs. Bama, UGA, OSU routinely are better teams with better talent. UM the last few years as well but not as consistently as those other 3. It's brutal playing OSU every year because they have better talent pretty much every single year, it is what it is. We just hope to pull the upset once in a while but they are a better program with better players.
Michigan is not a more talented team than PSU. They are vastly better developed from the inside out. Just read an article today about their recruiting rankings the last several years being well out of the top 10 and how they really don't get many elite prospects. CFB, and sports in general, aren't always chalk. Teams do breakthrough....teams do overcome deficiencies in certain areas and find ways to win. PSU finds ways to lose.
The laundry list of high end, including Pro Bowlers and NFL starters, indicates there has been more than enough talent to not crap the bed every year in big games. Even the elite programs u mentioned don't have 5-star alphas starting and dominating at every position...yes they have very talented rosters, but you make it like we should be happy b/c PSU has scraps compared to the programs they are trying to reach.
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The only thing that being good about covering the spread means is that Penn State is very predictable. Congrats on being predictable.
You can spin it as positively as you want the fact remains that Franklin underperforms in big games and for a while there was also routinely losing to inferior teams at least 1x per season. Essentially your argument is Ohio State and I guess you think Michigan when looking at the B10 have a better team as in better more talented players and it is unrealistic to beat them really ever. Maybe you would acquiesce to the 1x per decade cadence but in reality you don't expect to beat them ever and apparently you are perfectly content with this small, defeatist attitude. Do you think our proud Penn State lettermen think this way? Does our AD?? Have some confidence and believe in your school!!!
A couple flaws in that argument. First, when looking at Michigan they do not have better talent as Scrivener pointed out. They got a great coach who said we are going to be more physical at the LoS on both sides of the ball and dominate that way. And he did it and Michigan has passed us like we are standing still by developing players better that have the same talent level as our players do. Second, OSU's talent is not light years ahead. Do they recruit better? Yes. Are we in the ball park with them? Yes. Which means we are capable of beating them. We have NFL guys littered on our roster. There is no way we should have that many losses to OSU. 1-9??? C'mon and when you look back we could have easily won 3 or 4 of them. 2017 and 2018 were choke jobs. Last year we would have won with a competent passing game/offense. In 2016 everyone was upset about not making the playoff after winning the B10 championship. However, Franklin did it to himself by losing to Pitt despite a bunch of NFL skill guys. Then he blows the Rose Bowl because he can't hold a lead and lets Darnold have all day in the 4th quarter.
In 2017, blows it vs OSU then follows that up by losing to MSU. On and freaking on with coming up short when we need a big win.
Yes, Franklin can get some teams in the top 10 but he is not a top 10 coach. No way. There are many guys better than him without the benefit of leading such talented teams. And when you look at his game strategy and in-game coaching/adjustments he is not close to top 10 and no we are not lucky to have him when evaluating him on that criteria. He seems to get scared in big moments and not rise up to the challenge and it is reflected in the way the team performs.
He never could get us into a 4 team playoff yet MSU went one year. ND has gone. Oregon, Washington.
Is he a bad coach? Of course not. Is he a good game strategist and in-game coach? No.
I am not expecting to pull off what Saban has done but would expect say every 4 years to reach the final four. And one time we will breakthrough. If this OC does not help and we are not seeing improvement in the next 2-3 years as in not getting close to a semifinal game then you have to look at making a change.
You’re arguing in circles. Yes, OSU had better talent across the board every year we played them. And Michigan had better talent the past three years. You bring up Michigan State and those other teams (teams we haven’t lost to the last two years) and use that to try and support your argument to argue against a coach you say can only beat teams with less talent. Make up your mind dude….your hatred is causing you to have fuzzy thoughts.
The teams with lesser talent aren’t getting it done that’s why it’s almost always the same teams in the CFP. How many of these other coaches with lesser talent are beating two top five teams that are in their division every year? Beating an ACC team or a Big 12 team is easier to do than beating OSU or Michigan regardless of where those teams are ranked.
He was losing to lesser teams with lesser talent and he miraculously seemed to get over that recently. Michigan and Ohio State do not have better talent to explain away such a horrific record vs them. You think they do/did and that makes you happy and gives you your convenient excuse. I disagree.
Joe in his prime would have been mediocre according to this board. Let say he retired in 96…his teams would have made the playoffs a total 4 times in the 4 team format in a 30 year career. Not exactly elite according to this board
On the field, OSU has been consistently better than PSU for 20 years and counting. Since the start of the Tressel era OSU has been a national powerhouse, better than everyone but Bama. In the PSU golden ages they didn't consistently have to play a team of this caliber annually. It's not hard to understand why we struggle to beat them.
UM has been better for the past few years, yes in terms of talent, but it's closer at least. The difference with UM is the positions where they are better than PSU. Their guys on the line of scrimmage are better, and they've had better QB play. We have better athletes at some other positions but given how well UM executes their plan thanks to the line play, it more than negates where we have skill position advantages.
Many of you are dishonest with yourselves. You decided many years ago you don't like Franklin for whatever reason, and no matter what he does short of winning a national title you will never like him. Team does something well, it's the players or a fluke. Team does poorly, it's Franklin. Praise? Players and assistant coaches. Criticism? Franklin. There have been many examples of missed opportunities in the big games which are due to bad execution but that gets ignored, it's always Franklin's fault. He makes many correct decisions based on analytics but you still hold those against him because it's not how it was done 30 years ago, while other teams around CFB and the NFL make the same decisions.
Franklin has been fighting tooth and nail against the outdated mindset in the administration (and apparently many of the fans) to get PSU closer to the programs that you guys seemingly insist on being compared to. He does things like using job openings as leverage to force the administration into getting one baby step closer, yet you complain about that. He provided input for the AD hire, and PSU got one that seemingly is ready and willing to put more into the program. Then you'll probably complain about the spending. I don't get the outrage and never will. Franklin is doing great things for the present and future of the program bit by bit, and you hate him for it. Subsequent coaches will benefit too, but you'll never, ever give him that credit.
By all means keep trying to run Franklin out of town because he's not meeting the expectations that only a handful of teams are able to meet, then we can become Nebraska and be irrelevant for the next 20 years. Another program will snatch him up immediately and will be very happy to have him.
UM has been better for the past few years, yes in terms of talent, but it's closer at least. The difference with UM is the positions where they are better than PSU. Their guys on the line of scrimmage are better, and they've had better QB play. We have better athletes at some other positions but given how well UM executes their plan thanks to the line play, it more than negates where we have skill position advantages.
Many of you are dishonest with yourselves. You decided many years ago you don't like Franklin for whatever reason, and no matter what he does short of winning a national title you will never like him. Team does something well, it's the players or a fluke. Team does poorly, it's Franklin. Praise? Players and assistant coaches. Criticism? Franklin. There have been many examples of missed opportunities in the big games which are due to bad execution but that gets ignored, it's always Franklin's fault. He makes many correct decisions based on analytics but you still hold those against him because it's not how it was done 30 years ago, while other teams around CFB and the NFL make the same decisions.
Franklin has been fighting tooth and nail against the outdated mindset in the administration (and apparently many of the fans) to get PSU closer to the programs that you guys seemingly insist on being compared to. He does things like using job openings as leverage to force the administration into getting one baby step closer, yet you complain about that. He provided input for the AD hire, and PSU got one that seemingly is ready and willing to put more into the program. Then you'll probably complain about the spending. I don't get the outrage and never will. Franklin is doing great things for the present and future of the program bit by bit, and you hate him for it. Subsequent coaches will benefit too, but you'll never, ever give him that credit.
By all means keep trying to run Franklin out of town because he's not meeting the expectations that only a handful of teams are able to meet, then we can become Nebraska and be irrelevant for the next 20 years. Another program will snatch him up immediately and will be very happy to have him.
We all know he had one the four best teams in '68, '69, '73, '77, '78, '82, '85 '86. That is 8 for 30 or 27%. Certainly better than mediocre. And Franklin has made it how many times?
And you disagree to give yourself a convenient excuse to push for a new coach (see, that works both ways).
All I can tell you at this point is if Franklin can't improve in big games as defined by beating top 15 teams then we have to look for someone who can.
I think Franklin does some things well and is a good representative for the university. I have soured on him over the last few years as I see us not be able to perform in big games. I have never been against him from the beginning as you somehow think you know.
You can't simply pin all the meltdown losses on execution and absolve him of all responsibility. Thst is simply a flawed approach.
I am not expecting to beat OSU every year or even every other year but how about every 3 years? He can't even do that and we have talent to challenge them. There is no way we can be content losing to them every year.
As for Michigan, what you described is coaching. Building a strategy of power football with strong line play then designing a roster to execute.
I don't have hatred for Franklin. Believe me, I would like nothing more then for him to prove me wrong. If we lose to OSU next year but win the rest including beating USC and UDub and assume they are good teams then that is solid improvement. We would make the playoff and hopefully win a playoff game. I would take that season.
At some point you need to beat teams that have more talent than you or you will always be mediocre. Then you will get better recruits because of that success.
I had the privelage to meet Christian Wilkins down here in Miami, and asked him what happened, why didn't you come to Penn State. His response, "Why would I go to Penn State? I wanted to win a National Championship." If you only beat the teams that you are supposed to beat you are never going to be get recuits who want to win National Titles. Which is still a ton of kids out there.
Also, winning brings in money. If you beat OSU and/or Michigan it's hard to say how many more millions of dollars that our program would bring in.
You think donors get excited, and open up their checkbooks for beating Maryland?
We've already proven that we can beat bad teams on a regular basis. The next step is beating those top teams. We will never become great if we can't take that next step.
I had the privelage to meet Christian Wilkins down here in Miami, and asked him what happened, why didn't you come to Penn State. His response, "Why would I go to Penn State? I wanted to win a National Championship." If you only beat the teams that you are supposed to beat you are never going to be get recuits who want to win National Titles. Which is still a ton of kids out there.
Also, winning brings in money. If you beat OSU and/or Michigan it's hard to say how many more millions of dollars that our program would bring in.
You think donors get excited, and open up their checkbooks for beating Maryland?
We've already proven that we can beat bad teams on a regular basis. The next step is beating those top teams. We will never become great if we can't take that next step.
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LSU is the #2 program of this century.
They have won 3 national titles in the last 20 seasons with 3 different coaches. Second only to Bama.
I also think Georgia has probably overtaken OSU for #3.
Unfortunately, Ohio State's inability to win big games since the Meyer departure, has kept them from achieving a higher level, it certainly isn't due to a void of talent. I have them in a third place tie with rising Georgia, maybe #4. Ohio State is going the other direction at this point, that's why they've put their coach on notice, got rid of a relatively successful starting QB and spent 13 million dollars to rebuild their roster in 24.
Then how did Michigan get guys to go there, they weren’t winning NC’s? How about Clemson? Or Georgia? By your logic (and Wilkins apparently) these top players are only going to teams that have won a NC recently, so it’s impossible for anyone else to win a NC because they’re not getting the players. And Wilkins went to Clemson before they won a NC, so why would he possibly have gone there at the time? I’m guessing $$.
Michigan beat OSU 3 years ago is what happened. They took that next step by finally beating OSU, then a couple of years later won the Natty. Thanks for proving my point.
So guys are making their college decisions based on one game? I doubt it.
You aren't getting it. 1 game leads to Big Ten championships, leads to making playoffs, which leads to millions and millions of extra money from donors, which leads to getting more recruits because of NIL, extra money for better facilities, etc... So yes 1 game can be the difference in success or failure for future years to come.
Aren't you forgetting the ever convenient Franklin apologist excuse law that states...."Herein the team with a higher ranked recruiting class will always and I mean always, always beat the lesser ranked recruiting team." It is as guaranteed as death and taxes. No matter who your coach is it will always happen so basically we are doomed to lose to Ohio State every year for the duration of time as long as they have a recruiting class higher than PSU.
So let's look at Michigan and Ohio State recruiting leading up to the 2021-2023 games when Michigan actually beat Ohio State. As ranked by Rivals:
2018 Recruiting Rankings
OSU # 2
Michigan #24
2019 Recruiting Rankings
OSU #21
Michigan #10
2020 Recruiting Rankings
OSU #5
Michigan #11
2021 Recruiting Rankings
OSU #2
Michigan #10
2022 Recruiting Rankings
OSU #4
Michigan #9
2023 Recruiting Rankings
OSU #4
Michigan #18
Ohio State clearly out recruited Michigan during this time, beating them 5 out of 6 years yet somehow the Wolverines have won the last 3 games. Maybe coaching and overall strategy have something to do with it.
By the way in that 2019 year where Ohio State was #21 in recruiting rankings, PSU was #11 so did we see any bump from that advantage in a future game vs OSU where we may have won? Of course not.
One game does not lead to Big Ten championships…you still have to win at least 10 more. By your logic, Penn State should have won multiple championships after what they did in the 80’s and been a dynasty to end all dynasties, but we weren’t….must have been bad coaching.
Wow, you must have a terrible reading comprehension problem…I’ve never read anywhere on here that the team with the higher recruiting rankings will always beat the team with the lower rankings….never read that a single time.
Except literally nobody is saying that. There are no absolutes, but there are trends and likely scenarios based on the data available. You guys lose your minds because the underdog doesn't win. The rational among us still want to win, but realize that as an underdog it's less likely, and therefore not worthy of an overreaction such as demanding the coach gets fired when it doesn't happen.
I didn't look up stats when I made my post, but since you've challenged it, I threw together a quick summary. This is the cumulative win % for all seasons from 2001 to present (since Tressel was hired at OSU) for a handful of teams. OSU likely has the best win % in the country since then. I didn't look up every team but off the top of my head I doubt anyone beats OSU and Bama here. I'm willing to bump Bama to #1 due to an unprecedented number of titles. I'm not willing to bump LSU or UGA to #2 when they are both 8%+ lower in win % and have a similar number of titles as OSU.
OSU - 85% (2002, 2014)
Bama - 80% (2009, 2011, 2012, 2015, 2017, 2020)
UGA - 78% (2021, 2022)
LSU - 75% (2003*, 2007, 2019) *shared
UM - 69% (2023)
PSU - 66%
Playing OSU annually is almost like starting every season 0-1 given how consistently good they've been. Winning 85% in a very oversimplified manner means other teams beat them every 1.5 out of 10 games, ignoring all other factors. Franklin has beaten them 1 out of 10, just slightly below what you'd expect, and that's including all of the sanction and COVID impacted seasons.
Nobody with 2 losses makes the 4 team playoff, PSU has practically had zero margin for error. We stand to hugely benefit with the expansion to 12 teams and with OSU rolling off of the schedule in some future seasons. These changes probably help PSU more than any program in the country.
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Your basic point is we are not expected to win big games like vs OSU because they are so much better than us because of talent. Yet Michigan overcame this. We obviously can't....ever it seems.
Losing all the time as slight underdogs not huge mind you is a concern and goes back to coaching.
It's attributable to a number of factors, of which coaching is one. However when other coaches routinely suffer the same fate against OSU, that's an indicator that coaching isn't the end all be all you want to make it out to be.
It is a big part of it when you consider our talent is much closer to OSU than a Purdue or Rutgers or Maryland or Michigan State or Indiana or Wisconsin or Nebraska, etc. So comparing us to those programs and saying see no one beats them and we shouldn't either is a weak argument.
Oregon goes into Columbus and wins in 2021, Michigan beats them 3 years in a row. There is hard evidence that teams with talent close to them can beat them. They are not invincible and no you don't have to be Bama or Georgia with all 5 stars to beat them. We are definitely in that group with an Oregon or Michigan.
I'm not saying we need to beat OSU every year or even every other year although close to that like 40% of the time or maybe a third of the time should certainly be expected but we are at 10%. And in a few of of those games we held leads late. And we were not huge underdogs so clearly Vegas saw that our talent measured up to them. We easily could have taken them this year with any kind of competent offense. Blame it on Yurcich, blame it on Allar not being ready for the big stage but that all falls back on Franklin.
When you look at teams that seemingly come up short in big moments in "winning" time that goes back to coaching. Yes players need to execute so yeah it is not all on Franklin but I wonder why can't come through in the clutch? There is a mental fortitude aspect where some teams rise up and perform their best in clutch moments and others don't. I believe a big reason explaining that is the coach and whether he has them ready for those moments.
The only thing you you have proven here is that overall winning percentage is not a good indicator of anything. The fact it shows OSU is better than Bama, by this metric is silly, considering every human being in the world knows that's not true.
What matters is winning titles and LSU has 33% more titles than OSU and Georgia in the past two decades. That's huge.
The stat metric you provided would indicate OSU is ahead of Bama, which is not true. If anything it indicates a watered down B1G while the SEC is winning everything nearly every year.
The metric is championships. LSU get the nod. LSU and OSU both have 52 players on NFL rosters T2.
LSU is #2 to Bama. Georgia and OSU trail in a close race. OSU on consistency, Georgia on recency bias.
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Even into the 2000s, there was awarding of titles and pure luck, as opposed to just winning.
One of LSU’s titles, while following a beating of tOSU, had them finish with 2 losses. Pure luck gave them the opportunity in a down season for cfb (producing a great team). Any consideration of that season being better than ‘04 Auburn’s is not even worth discussing.
tOSU also had a perfect record year go unrecognized while on probation. They were the only unbeaten team that year. What was acceptable for a MNC in the past (OU), it wasn’t deemed worthy enough that year.
The point is MNCs haven’t been the be all end all.
Agree to disagree. Go poll 100 CFB fans who the #2 program is behind Bama since 2001 and LSU will not be the most common answer. UGA is #2 if you're talking last 5 years or so, that's more or less indisputable. Well, they are either #2 or you could make a case for #1 in that recent but short time period. OSU is consistently elite, has been so more than any other program not named Bama during that time span. All of the others have a higher frequency of "down" seasons and poor records whereas that is exceedingly rare for OSU.
Why not? Obviously you can thumb your nose at the rules, win, and nothing bad happens to you. I like to win. Let's hire him. The Houston Astros were provably cheating, won a World Series and nothing happened to them. I think we should do every dirty, illegal thing possible. After all, nobody cares.
While I understand the point you are making, it fails to do 2 things:
1. Bama before Saban, particularly in the time frame used, was average to good and nowhere near the consistent top 4 team that he transformed them into.
2. The Buckeyes have been a tough team to beat for 20 years. If you take out the SEC opponents, their win % probably is close to 98% than 85% (I didn't look nor calculate).
At the end of the day, I probably wouldn't argue LSU over OSU simply over 1 extra title in the span when LSU has a few down years in between, but I certainly wouldn't fault the logic of 3 > 2 either.
I also think Bama is definitely #1 over the span, even with a lesser win % because 6 titles beats everybody by 2+.
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