In terms of football, if the conference does not lose its Midwestern identity, it will be relegated to second class in the coming decades. I was personally happy to see Rutgers (despite too many of their fans being douches) andMaryland join the B1G to lessen the Midwest centric Focus. I feel the next step is to add the population growth markets of Virginia / North Carolina to cement a healthy future conference footprint (VA and particularly NC will one day rival PA and OH in population as an example) that not only improves recruiting pipelines but also the tv $. Look at how the addition of PSU opened up PA and NJ recruiting for OSU, UM, and Wisconsin in the 90s.What would be very “interesting” would be to listen to someone try to explain - - - in real, concrete terms - - - what the net benefit would be, to the existing members, of adding UVA and VT (or whomever) to the B10.
The number of potentially accretive programs to the B10 ain’t big. The number of accretive programs that would likely entertain an offer - or have any reason to entertain an offer - is tiny (and might be zero)
That is a “lecture” I’d pay to listen to......
If the BIG expands
- Thread starter sammyk
- Start date
Hate to tell you this but OSU and UM both recruited well in PA and NJ before PSU joined the conference and Wisconsin in NJ.
Sorry but many people here on this board realize that playing a game against Temple, in Philly, is a smart decision on many levels; despite what IDIOTS say who oppose it.
Comprende'??
Bless your heart
I did forget the winkie norm. I really did.
Sorry about that sir.
You know I luv your posts.
All is good sir.
Have you ever read a Conference Grant of Rights Agreement?
You are right on one front. If a Conference like the Big 12 votes to dissolve prior to the GOR's expiration, the television contract becomes null and void in most cases. However, you are really stretching the truth on almost everything else.
If the Big Ten added Virginia, in addition to the exit fee Virginia would have to pay the ACC of roughly 50 million dollars, all Virginia's home game television revenue would go to the ACC, not the Big Ten. ESPN and the new ACC linear Network would retain all the rights to Virginia Home Games. BTN would not be able to televise any Virginia Home Games without an astronomical buyout. Since the Big Ten has their own GOR to protect, there is no way on Earth they would ever challenge the ACC's.
No one from the ACC is going to move to the Big Ten without a negotiated agreement from all parties. That is remotely possible under some scenarios before the Big 12's GOR expires and some horse trading may ensue. But highly improbable.
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The only thing that will be expanding in the B10 is this......
Gangway to the buffet!!!
If breaking a GOR was as easy as you and Art make it sound, Oklahoma and Kansas would be Big Ten members today. That's unless half the ACC hasn't already beat down our door to join because ESPN is slow walking their ACC linear Network. In fact, the only reason ESPN ever agreed to establish an ACC linear Network was if they had the guarantee that schools wouldn't keep threatening to jump ship. They knew, as did John Swofford, that a GOR would keep all the rats from jumping ship at some point.
Television partners want stability. They don't want to have to renegotiate contracts every time a school unexpectedly wants to leave for greener pastures. Maryland proved that a large exit fee is not enough to keep a quality Program from jumping from a "have not" Conference to a "have". The GOR accomplishes this in multiple ways.
If Maryland wouldn't have gotten out of Dodge before the ACC's GOR took effect, they would still be in the ACC.
Let me make this simple. Why would the Big Ten ever add Maryland if their television rights were owned by the ACC until 2036???? How in the world does that benefit the Big Ten????
The BTN would still be selling in Maryland and the Big Ten wouldn't be paying Maryland their share? I think that situation would hurt Maryland but not necessarily the Big Ten.
I get the idea of Houston as a growth city with access to millions of eyeballs for TV and attractive recruiting grounds for football and basketball prospects. That said pump the brakes on the "wait until OSU or Iowa come to town." This is the same thing people were saying about Rutgers and Maryland. These "media market darlings" don't sell out their marquee games, and their attendance for conference also-rans like Purdue or Illinois is horrible.
Houston attendance sucked in The SWC Days outside of the little run they made with Andre Ware. This was with the benefit of having visiting fans who could easily travel to Houston to support their school. If The B1G ever expands again they need to do it not with an eye toward potential cable boxes, but with an eye toward attractive teams that can be sold to customers in a direct streaming format. Hello Oklahoma.
A.) I got the impression you were supporting Art's position.
B.) Because both have been in continuous contact through back channels and are fed up with the Big 12. Both have strong support from the Western schools of the Big Ten. Certain Oklahoma Regents and both the past and current President have made no secret of the fact that they covet the Big Ten's Academic model and would like to reunite with Nebraska. The only thing holding the Big 12 together at this point is their GOR. Once that expires in 2024/2025, all bets are off.
The Big Ten would not own Maryland's television rights. The ACC would own them even though Maryland was a member of the Big Ten.
If ESPN televised a game at College Park, the television revenue would go to the ACC. If the game was televised in Beaver Stadium, it would go to the Big Ten.
The ACC wouldn't get a dime from the Big Ten Network. And the BTN would be available on cable boxes in Maryland. That was my only point. I'm not sure how your response counters my point at all.
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anon_is9z1n0h3zblb
Guest
It's not a coincidence that our current TV contracts with ESPN and FOX ends with the 2022/2023 athletic year. Enough time to reshuffle conferences again and sign a new one. PAC-12 ends in 2023/2024. SEC has no GOR. SEC expires in 2023 for CBS and 2030 for ESPN/SEC network.
Never said they would. I said that the Big Ten CONFERENCE wouldn't get a dime from a game that was televised at College Park, Maryland. The Big Ten NETWORK has nothing to do with it because they wouldn't have the television rights.
The ACC would have retained Maryland's television rights if Maryland fell under the GOR, and would have received the revenue from a Maryland vs Penn State football game played at Maryland. The game would be televised by a television partner contracted through the ACC. The television revenues would go to the ACC. Yes. Even if Maryland was a member of the Big Ten Conference.
That's why the GOR is so much more effective than a large exit fee.
Your question was "How in the world does that benefit the Big Ten????".
I clearly stated that the Big Ten Network would gain subscribers in Maryland. That would benefit the Big Ten.
And you've been arguing about something unrelated since.
The risk/reward benefits wouldn't be worth it. The money we would gain through probably the lowest carriage fees in the Big Ten footprint would be offset by the negotiating leverage we would lose in negotiating our 1st tier rights. Why would the Big Ten add a team whose 1st tier, 2nd tier, 3rd tier, or any tier football television rights they don't own?
The Big Ten isn't going to hand over the rights to Penn State games, Ohio State games, Michigan games, Michigan State games, Nebraska games, Wisconsin games, etc, etc, etc played at College Park to the ACC on a silver platter just to get a few extra BTN subscribers at a reduced carriage fee in Maryland.
Well, unlike you, people at Oklahoma and Kansas like how the Big Ten Academic Alliance (old CIC) is set up and want to step up their academic associations. They have also received great reviews from the people at Nebraska who many remain in close contact with.
Boren, Gallogly, and certain regents at Oklahoma have made no secret they want to step up their academic image. And it is no secret which Conference they prefer.
Would the Big Ten accept them? I understand they have been given a verbal "yes". Some of the Oklahoma T-shirt fans prefer the SEC, which might happen too. Who knows? We will see. Nothing is going to happen for at least a couple more years. Lots can change between now and then.
If it happens, I think it will happen when the Big XII contracts are close to expiring and schools want to protect themselves going forward. Those GoR's will be flexible to a degree if the new alignment makes sense financially for those conferences.
Anything could happen. Maybe the Pac 12 and Big Ten form a 32 school super-conference by adding Oklahoma and Kansas to the Big Ten and Texas, Ok St, K State and Iowa State to the Pac 12. They could all play 8 games in conference and four cross conference. Maintain some rivalry games. Yada, yada, yada.
Then they could decide the championship is the Rose Bowl.
In the land of hypothetical, anything is possible.
Which is why the GOR is so effective. A member school specifically, in the contract, states that they have signed away their television rights to the ACC for the duration of the Contract, ["regardless of whether such member Institution remains a member of the Conference for the entirety of the term"].
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anon_is9z1n0h3zblb
Guest
ACC did not have a GOR when Maryland left. Just the notification and fees. AAC still doesn't have a GOR. Pretty much every school for themselves in all the G5 conferences.
You mean like me and Johns Hopkins which declined an invitation to join the vaunted Alliance and Chicago which formally withdrew, put participates in a diminished capacity
There's no magic in the Alliance. It's been around for sixty years and nobody else has seen a compelling reason to duplicate it, which could be done in pretty short order.
Basically it's a resource sharing (borrowing books from other schools' libraries, allowing students to enroll in classes at other schools that their own doesn't offer, allowing students to use another school's study-abroad program) and pooled purchasing (primarily IT and telecom services) facility. There are other odds and ends, but that's the main thrust. It does allow the schools to save money, but when spread across any insititution's budget, it's rounding error.
That's all right but nothing all that special. I was picturing say joint research say, where you get leading scholars from three schools say working together on a given project. But they kind of do that already don't they? The top people in a given field already know who the other top people are.
Thanks for the insight!
As you say, collaboration on research projects takes place all of the time and people in any given field know what other as in the field are capable of and what resources they can lend to a project. The BTAA does little to facilitate research. That's really not its focus.
It does hold a lot of meetings and seminars, however, which is why faculty and administrators love it. I'd venture to guess that if the cost of these boondoggles were netted against the savings the consortium achieves, what remains would't pay for Fats's onion dip consumption in a month.
I am 100% sure that years ago PSU would accept almost NOTHING from Houston in the way of transfer credits. That is what it all comes down to. This was a long time ago and I hope things have changed for Houston, but what is that situation now? If PSU generally accepts their credits for transfer students, then the academic issue is currently moot. But if it's anywhere near as bad as it used to be, Houston is a complete non-starter.
Kudos to the OP for getting us to talk so much about .. Houston.
So how is it that PSU will accept 48 credits from Lackawanna or Nassau CC? Are you saying that Lackawanna is more academically rigorous than Houston?
If the B1G expands, there needs to be a compelling reason...besides "big for the sake of B1G."
Bring two new schools in, they have to add value.
IMO a non-Power-5 conference team doesn't add value. Simply not enough name, alumni, eyeballs...you name it. Plus they'd be a very big geographic outlier.
Power 5 schools in states adjacent to the B1G footprint:
Colorado, K State, Kansas, Mizzou, Kentucky, WVU, Va, Va Tech, Syracuse
Are ANY of those really compelling adds to the B1G? I'd say not.
You can talk about Texas or Oklahoma but the fact is that neither of these schools are in states adjacent to the current B1G footprint. They'd be outliers...even if they came in as a pair.
If you're going to poach outlier schools, how about Georgia and Florida? From what I'm reading above, the SEC has no GOR, so all you'd have to do is persuade them to leave. Probably wouldn't be that difficult given the better academic standing of the B1G. And if recruiting is important...
I'd also have to ask why the B1G should retain Purdue and Northwestern. Both are in states that have a state flagship school (Indiana and Illinois) and neither really adds value.
Why not go for the gold and kick out Purdue and Northwestern and add Texas, Oklahoma, Georgia, and Florida?
Bring two new schools in, they have to add value.
IMO a non-Power-5 conference team doesn't add value. Simply not enough name, alumni, eyeballs...you name it. Plus they'd be a very big geographic outlier.
Power 5 schools in states adjacent to the B1G footprint:
Colorado, K State, Kansas, Mizzou, Kentucky, WVU, Va, Va Tech, Syracuse
Are ANY of those really compelling adds to the B1G? I'd say not.
You can talk about Texas or Oklahoma but the fact is that neither of these schools are in states adjacent to the current B1G footprint. They'd be outliers...even if they came in as a pair.
If you're going to poach outlier schools, how about Georgia and Florida? From what I'm reading above, the SEC has no GOR, so all you'd have to do is persuade them to leave. Probably wouldn't be that difficult given the better academic standing of the B1G. And if recruiting is important...
I'd also have to ask why the B1G should retain Purdue and Northwestern. Both are in states that have a state flagship school (Indiana and Illinois) and neither really adds value.
Why not go for the gold and kick out Purdue and Northwestern and add Texas, Oklahoma, Georgia, and Florida?
SEC has
SEC has a GOR that runs through 2034. Georgia and Florida, while good additions, aren't leaving anyway.
Texas would be a a home run. Oklahoma a repeat of the Nebraska mistake. Great athletic program, not enough eyeballs to pay for itself, let alone add value.
SEC has a GOR that runs through 2034. Georgia and Florida, while good additions, aren't leaving anyway.
Texas would be a a home run. Oklahoma a repeat of the Nebraska mistake. Great athletic program, not enough eyeballs to pay for itself, let alone add value.
Jesus Christ. So you are saying there is absolutely nothing to PSU criteria for accepting credits from other schools? Dude, do you just like to fight with people or what?
To answer your stupid question, there is a lot of work put in for schools in-state to align themselves for having a smooth path for kids to go a couple years there and go to where they really want to. This is a good thing. There are a myriad of reasons kids can't go where they want to right away. At least in-state, an effort to make it possible for kids to do that is a very good thing. And it is not unreasonable nor unexpected to not have the same standard for out-of-state schools.
And to use your typical language, I don't give a fvck what you have to say on the matter. You think you are omnipotent and you clearly are not. That is exactly the way you carry yourself on this board. There are about 5-10 real blowhards on this board and you are one of them.
Guess you don't know where Nassau CC is. Here's one that's easier Northwest Mississippi CC. Once you've found that on the map, you can shove your finger back up your ass.
That wasn't the point …. was it?
The point was, they had contractual obligations - big, onerous, punitive ones.
Just like these GOR things.
But, they "made a deal" (to paraphrase from Crap Game in Kelly's Heroes... "They musta' been Republicans")… a deal that met the needs of both parties.
What would one expect to happen wrt these "GOR" contracts?
Does anyone really think these folks would "take it to court"?
Does anyone really think these GOR are anything much more than preening? (that provides a little leverage and a starting point) That they wouldn't be negotiated?
This really is one of the funniest posts of the day.
You actually can't grasp the concept, can you?
Hey Sooners!!! Remember a couple of years ago when some of the best legal minds you could find came to the conclusion that it was way too soon to even attempt to break your GOR???? Well I've got this guy up here at Penn State named Stormin Norman that has all the answers!!! A true legal genius!!! Can't believe it took us so long to find him!!!
