Hawkeyes lead NCAA in Attendance for 12th consecutive season
- Thread starter WildTurk
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Football would be revenue positive even if it was a stand alone, no conference TV money, entity.
Without TV money, wrestling is much closer to revenue neutral than men's basketball.
Iowa leads the nation in average attendance at wrestling duals. Congratulations.........give credit where it is due.. It really isn't that hard. Penn State Rec Hall is amazing........Incredible atmosphere.....no matter the numbers. Okie State? Had a couple of duals in nasty weather....one...pretty much the whole state was on emergency.....give them a pass this year. Ohio State......congrats....but quit the whining. Rutgers?......good on you for bringing in fans. Lets root for "healthy" competition. Fresno State? Damned impressive.....keep it up! South Dakota State....loved watching your duals. Iowa State?.....we know you can do better. . Arizona State, Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Va. Tech, NC State, etc. ............you are getting beat by Lehigh..........Lets Get 'r Done !!
PS: Pitt?..........do the best you can
PS: Pitt?..........do the best you can
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Per capita - the same lame argument small countries use to say they actually lead the Olympic medal count.
Do you get a free bowl of soup with that?
I love statistics, even been formally trained decades ago, and still use regularly. They are what they are, so never a reason to get the least excited. State pride for PA is pretty high, as it is in Iowa re. wrestling, so let the banter continue...'tis great to be proud!!
My stats go back to 2010, and they're compiled every year, once NCAA's are done. I'll be honest, 2018 has not yet been added, though it won't change the data much. Here's what I see...
-- PA's population is a bit more than 4 times Iowa's, yet the school-age population is only 3.5 times, meaning the age demographics are different (statistically-speaking, using the overall population to calculate some sort of Qualifier or AA rate has its flaws, but I'll play along)
-- Per the NFHS, Iowa has 283 high schools that have wrestling, PA has 486, so despite the size difference (4x), PA only has 71% more schools that have wrestling.
-- Also per the NFHS, IA has 6586 high school wrestlers, PA has 9720, or only 48% more
Point of this is to show the variation, and differences. Anyone can select one stat to make a point, which is ok. In this case, there's more to the story.
-- Iowa has a higher RATE per capita for both NCAA Qualifiers and All-Americans. And the chart linked by the OP shows that.
-- However, PA has a distinct edge when calculating Qualifiers or All-Americans per thousand High School wrestler, almost 2-to-1.
My stats go back to 2010, and they're compiled every year, once NCAA's are done. I'll be honest, 2018 has not yet been added, though it won't change the data much. Here's what I see...
-- PA's population is a bit more than 4 times Iowa's, yet the school-age population is only 3.5 times, meaning the age demographics are different (statistically-speaking, using the overall population to calculate some sort of Qualifier or AA rate has its flaws, but I'll play along)
-- Per the NFHS, Iowa has 283 high schools that have wrestling, PA has 486, so despite the size difference (4x), PA only has 71% more schools that have wrestling.
-- Also per the NFHS, IA has 6586 high school wrestlers, PA has 9720, or only 48% more
Point of this is to show the variation, and differences. Anyone can select one stat to make a point, which is ok. In this case, there's more to the story.
-- Iowa has a higher RATE per capita for both NCAA Qualifiers and All-Americans. And the chart linked by the OP shows that.
-- However, PA has a distinct edge when calculating Qualifiers or All-Americans per thousand High School wrestler, almost 2-to-1.
Lehigh is even more constrained than Penn State. Every match except the Penn State match in Allentown was held at the Snake Pit - capacity 1788 according to the Lehigh Sports website. http://www.lehighsports.com/facilities/?id=4
I do have to admit it's a much better atmosphere than Stabler but, man, it's tiny.
Have to admit the statistic I’d prefer is having 8 out of the last 9 NCAA Championships.
Not to toot my own horn, but I've made that argument for Iowa based on relative population size for over a decade.
Just like UNI, we do more with less!
Just like UNI, we do more with less!
So, you've made the "size doesn't matter, it's what you do with it" argument for years?
Sorry, but you left that one hanging over the sweet spot.
Some stats are just statistical oddities.
Consider that population demographics can greatly skew state-based reviews. City size and makeup of big city populations are likely a big factor.
Would be interesting to see a study based upon city and town size of NCAA participants, AAs and NCAA Champs. Guessing that the central and northern portions of PA show a much higher rate than the state overall. That Iowa has no large cities comparable to PA likely skews the numbers dramatically. Whereas comparisons of wrestlers from similar sized cities and towns might show interesting similarities that might greatly normalize the results.
If city or town size is more highly correlated to “wrestling potential,” then the state demographic, that might be significant, is the overall number of cities and towns that fall within the sweet spot sizes.
If these city size guesses have merit, then the overall number of cities and towns in the “sweet spot” in “wrestling states” is likely a bigger predictor for the state’s contribution to total NCAA participants, AAs and NCAA Champs. This may not stretch over all wrestling states, but might help to differentiate between the top 10 wrestling states.
If this has merit, it could account for both Iowa’s skewed population-based results as well as PA’s much larger production of overall wrestling talent.
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In the end, a different demographic may be more important for many NCAA wrestling schools. That potential being the average distance from the locations that produce the biggest overall numbers of wrestlers. Perhaps just another “common sense” “duh” point of view. But it doesn’t always work out. Schools like PSU, tOSU and RU likely lagged their potentials for a number of years. Perhaps their biggest changes in the modern era come from increased funding. Assuming that funding can attract improvements in coaching, facilities and support in areas like transportation.
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A case can be made that the biggest correlation to success is linked to very large Big Ten funding per school. A threshold may be in place, where there are enough dollars to fund revenue sports of football and basketball, with additional dollars available to significantly fund targeted non-revenue sports like wrestling. The BT funds are being provided to Big Ten athletic departments, due to their large TV contracts. This is linked to populations within their footprints and the national reach of some traditional winning football teams like Nebraska.
Big Ten school funding may be a key reason that Big Ten schools are showing overall improvements in wrestling team production, as a group. More BT schools have the funding to participate at a higher level, due to their increased BT conference funding.
Your mileage may vary. Some settling may occur during transmission. All comments, updates and inputs are welcome.
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I've made the per capita argument for years. The bit about UNI is just how we describe things at UNI, vis a vis Iowa State and the Sqwawkers.
I was waiting to see how long it took for this to end up here and turn negative on Iowa. How about: “Thanks Iowa fans for keeping our sport relevant”? Because without us (Iowa fans), you’re national championships might as well be bandmiton national titles.Yea!.... for being first in something.
It 'turned up here' because one of your guys started this thread.
Hey Ban, I still remember your 10-year Per-Capita-Argument (PCA) anniversary party! What a blast! See you at the 20th!!
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That's rich. As if there would be any difference at the sport level with 4000 fewer (or more) fans in Iowa City. Too bad you didn't put more butts in Carver Hawkeye all those years, maybe we could've saved Oregon and Washington and UCLA and Clemson and Syracuse and LSU and ... more recently, Boston U and Boise State and Eastern Michigan ...
Wait, it's ridiculous to blame fans in Iowa City for the state of the sport elsewhere? Of course it is, just as it's ridiculous to credit fans in Iowa City for the state of the sport elsewhere.
So domination was keeping it relevant when Iowa did it, but it is bad for wrestling when PSU is winning? And by the way, PSU has many sports with nationals championships. Wrestling is just the one that is discussed on this thread...
The population argument is misleading. The greater Philadelphia area's population is roughly 6 million people or nearly 1/2 of Pennsylvania's approximate 13 million population. Yet since 2000, the Philadelphia area schools of Districts 1 & 12 have had a total of 0 National Champions:
District 1 -- 0
District 2 -- 1
District 3 -- 4
District 4 -- 3
District 5 -- 0
District 6 -- 3
District 7 -- 17
District 8 -- 0
District 9 -- 0
District 10 -- 0
District 11 -- 4
District 12 -- 0
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There are a few considerations. First, the wrestling team has to pay for the use of the BJC. So they do have to get a packed crowd to make it pay off. When they had 2 in a season a couple of years back, the 2nd meet did not sell out. It was close, but the novelty wears off a little especially if it isn't a marquee matchup. PSU wrestling would not consistently sell out the BJC - even with $4 seats in the rafters as they have done in the past.
Second, Rec Hall is a much more intense environment, and for many season ticket holders a better fan experience. So while BJC matches are fun and I think most season tix holders are good with 1 or maybe 2, more than that would not be wildly popular with the hard core fans.
Third, and I don't know if this is really an issue, but it has to be a bit of a facilities pain in the butt to setup both Rec Hall and the BJC and haul all of the gear back and forth across campus. Rec Hall there is little more to do than roll out the mats. Go the the BJC and they have to get the gear there, setup a raised platform, plus (at least historically) they have done some pyrotechnics and light show stuff to make it a bigger deal. All takes time and money and effort from someone.
Fourth, in my opinion, Rec Hall is a better home mat advantage. In addition to the fans being closer to the mat, all of the wrestling facilities are right there. Same locker rooms, warmup areas, etc. It is their "home". BJC is not.
This didn't turn anti-Iowa, far from it. If it is (anti-Iowa), my fellow posters (and me) are making a pathetic, feeble attempt at making it so.
Some of what is posted here are statistics, and so meh (to me anyway), as it's data, and can be used to show that both are great wrestling states. No need to take offense. Oh, and it's badminton.
I think Lehigh goes through the same thing with Grace/Stabler/PPL Center in Allentown. I'm not sure whether they have to pay for Stabler but I am pretty sure they had to pay to use the PPL Center. But they probably go through the analysis in almost the same way as above. For a few years they had more matches at Stabler but that has decreased. This year they had zero at Stabler.
The per capita argument is pretty much negated by PA's lack of participation from its big cities. Their numbers are included in the overall calculations, but their participation is almost non-existent.
Seems to me that Philly has had one state champ in PA history, and he practiced with Malvern Prep as I recall. Pittsburgh has had very few state champs, and without Pittsburgh Central Catholic, the numbers really drop. Would like to see these numbers re-run without the two cities.
And now that some Philly schools are taking wrestling seriously, I'm looking forward to what Philly wrestlers will become in a decade or two, assuming I live that long. Philly actually had two state medalists for the 3rd year in a row! What a breakthrough!
Seems to me that Philly has had one state champ in PA history, and he practiced with Malvern Prep as I recall. Pittsburgh has had very few state champs, and without Pittsburgh Central Catholic, the numbers really drop. Would like to see these numbers re-run without the two cities.
And now that some Philly schools are taking wrestling seriously, I'm looking forward to what Philly wrestlers will become in a decade or two, assuming I live that long. Philly actually had two state medalists for the 3rd year in a row! What a breakthrough!
Lifelong Hawkeye fan here and damn proud of Iowa's wrestling tradition. That said, I am a fan of Pennsylvania wrestling too. Both states produce some hard nosed, ass busting studs. I don't believe that my state has ever produced anything quite like Spencer Lee (for that matter not sure many have). So thanks Pennsylvania for him. Anyway, just posting so all you Penn State fans don't think every Hawkeye fan is a hater. Love watching your studs perform, love watching the Hawkeyes. We are coming back hard after you...
Good to see you're the only one who gets that.Hey Ban, I still remember your 10-year Per-Capita-Argument (PCA) anniversary party! What a blast! See you at the 20th!!
Edit: meaning, the only one who gets what you're referring to. I certainly don't.
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