COVID gratuitous dumpster fire thread

[El-Jefe]

If an Olympic Bronze > World Silver then:
2021 experimental vaccine > 1963 FDA approved vaccine

Just sayin'...

Here's the problem: you don't have to convince me. I got the shot and drove 2 hrs each way to do it.

But I did it because I read the info for myself and reached my own conclusions.

I certainly didn't do it because our institutions said so. Our leaders are hot garbage, arrogant, unpersuasive, unaccountable, and unwilling to live by their own rules.

It's true that some people won't get it anyway and are using the FDA as an excuse. Of course, the FDA has allowed that to become entrenched by wasting many months. As the saying goes: I'll act like it's a crisis when those who tell me it's a crisis, start acting like it's a crisis themselves.

Mandates and othering don't help. That just causes people to dig in their heels.

But our expert class doesn't understand that their expertise is secondary to trust. They squandered trust long ago, and would rather point the finger than earnestly do the hard work of re-gaining trust.

 

[82bordeaux]

Here's the problem: you don't have to convince me. I got the shot and drove 2 hrs each way to do it.

But I did it because I read the info for myself and reached my own conclusions.

I certainly didn't do it because our institutions said so. Our leaders are hot garbage, arrogant, unpersuasive, unaccountable, and unwilling to live by their own rules.

It's true that some people won't get it anyway and are using the FDA as an excuse. Of course, the FDA has allowed that to become entrenched by wasting many months. As the saying goes: I'll act like it's a crisis when those who tell me it's a crisis, start acting like it's a crisis themselves.

Mandates and othering don't help. That just causes people to dig in their heels.

But our expert class doesn't understand that their expertise is secondary to trust. They squandered trust long ago, and would rather point the finger than earnestly do the hard work of re-gaining trust.

I would appreciate everyone's position if they just claimed they didn't want the vaccine for political reasons. I'd say right on. Do what you gotta do. But they know that doesn't sound very intelligent. So instead they go with it's not approved, or it was rushed to market, etc...
But if they really believe they have the odds on their side by not being vaccinated, I am holding a high stakes poker game at the cottage this weekend. They are all welcome. Cash on the barrel only.

 

[Dogwelder]

… Our leaders are hot garbage, arrogant, … the FDA has allowed … by wasting many …I'll act like it's a crisis when those who tell me … But our expert class doesn't understand … They squandered trust long …

That’s a lot of blanket ad hominem whining about leaders. It doesn’t say anything about what to do right now to save actual lives and keep our economy open. If we have to wait until our leaders become angels to take action, I guess we will never have to do anything or make any rational choices. “I’m sorry, I’d like to go avenge Pearl Harbor, but I don’t like FDR, so I’ll just twiddle my thumbs here in Louisiana.”

 

[Dogwelder]

… But if they really believe they have the odds on their side by not being vaccinated, I am holding a high stakes poker game at the cottage this weekend. They are all welcome. Cash on the barrel only.

Yeah. Too bad that when the happy “you can’t make me” heroes get sick, they will infect others, too. I can’t wait for younger kids to be allowed the vaccine because they are going to unfairly suffer when schools reopen with all the unmasked kids from unvaccinated hero households.

 

[ss7]

Here's the problem: you don't have to convince me. I got the shot and drove 2 hrs each way to do it.

But I did it because I read the info for myself and reached my own conclusions.

I certainly didn't do it because our institutions said so. Our leaders are hot garbage, arrogant, unpersuasive, unaccountable, and unwilling to live by their own rules.

It's true that some people won't get it anyway and are using the FDA as an excuse. Of course, the FDA has allowed that to become entrenched by wasting many months. As the saying goes: I'll act like it's a crisis when those who tell me it's a crisis, start acting like it's a crisis themselves.

Mandates and othering don't help. That just causes people to dig in their heels.

But our expert class doesn't understand that their expertise is secondary to trust. They squandered trust long ago, and would rather point the finger than earnestly do the hard work of re-gaining trust.

Isn't the Emergency Use Authorization exactly what the FDA does when there's a crisis?

Full, "regular" approval takes years. So, when there's an immediate pressing need (or a crisis), an Emergency Use Authorization is used in the interim.

 

[El-Jefe]

That’s a lot of blanket ad hominem whining about leaders. It doesn’t say anything about what to do right now to save actual lives. If we have to wait until our leaders become angels to take action, I guess we will never have to do anything or make any rational choices. “I’m sorry, I’d like to go avenge Pearl Harbor, but I don’t like FDR, so I’ll just twiddle my thumbs here in Louisiana.”

Interesting, I must have missed where we let Japan get away with Pearl Harbor.

To your point: first there needs to be accountability. Lots of heads need to roll.

Next, people in leadership need to do the hard work of truly caring about others instead of caring about ruling others.

If you're looking for a "right now" solution, Rome wasn't built in a day.

There is one thing that could be done quickly. I'm old enough to remember when former presidents would get together for hurricane relief. Why hasn't this been attempted yet? Leadership.

The fact is that there is not one large homogenous group to be addressed. There are many groups that all look and think differently, yet have reached the same conclusion. They may have some common concerns, but ultimately the real work is at the individual or small group level.

Of course the easy and fun thing to do is mock one group while ignoring or exusing the rest. That group has noticed and reacted accordingly.

 

[El-Jefe]

Isn't the Emergency Use Authorization exactly what the FDA does when there's a crisis?

Full, "regular" approval takes years. So, when there's an immediate pressing need (or a crisis), an Emergency Use Authorization is used in the interim.

167M Americans vaccinated.

Taking years to approve that is unacceptable.

That we as a society have been conditioned to accept that, is part of the problem.

 

[a_mshaffer]

I got mine but can understand both sides. This isn't about washing your hands or a polio vaccine that has been around long enough to see results/impact. Heck, we just got done taking mercury out of some common vaccines. Younger people and those with some unique conditions certainly have a point. There is data all over the place, but that is as good as listening to ANY politician.

 

[ss7]

167M Americans vaccinated.

Taking years to approve that is unacceptable.

That we as a society have been conditioned to accept that, is part of the problem.

I just don't understand this criticism.

There's the full approval that allows for long term monitoring of potential side effects or negative impacts. I think most people think that's a good thing.

There's also an Emergency Use Approval that enables the process to be sped up when the data/research shows risks of not having it are outweighed by the risks associated with side effects.

This seems like a sound approach. Of course, if we're looking for something to harp on, we can always non-specifically say things should be better or go faster.

 

[Dogwelder]

Interesting, I must have missed where we let Japan get away with Pearl Harbor.

To your point: first there needs to be accountability. Lots of heads need to roll.

Next, people in leadership need to do the hard work of truly caring about others instead of caring about ruling others.

If you're looking for a "right now" solution, Rome wasn't built in a day.

The fact is that there is not one large homogenous group to be addressed. There are many groups that all look and think differently, yet have reached the same conclusion. They may have some common concerns, but ultimately the real work is at the individual or small group level.

Of course the easy and fun thing to do is mock one group while ignoring or exusing the rest. That group has noticed and reacted accordingly.

If we show your post to a man in the street, he would say those sound like the generality-filled, nonspecific words of a politician. He would highlight:

“If you're looking for a "right now" solution, Rome wasn't built in a day.”

And he would roll his contempt-filled eyes and say:

This politician is not building any trust with me. He is allowing the pandemic to become entrenched by wasting many months. He is talking philosophy and platitudes while we need a “right now” solution. He talks as if we should not want a “right now” solution. I'll act like it's a crisis when this person starts acting like it's a crisis.

 

[El-Jefe]

I just don't understand this criticism.

There's the full approval that allows for long term monitoring of potential side effects or negative impacts. I think most people think that's a good thing.

There's also an Emergency Use Approval that enables the process to be sped up when the data/research shows risks of not having it are outweighed by the risks associated with side effects.

This seems like a sound approach. Of course, if we're looking for something to harp on, we can always non-specifically say things should be better or go faster.

So then what happens in a few years if side effects are discovered? Does full approval get rejected?

If not, then why wait?

If so, then those resisting the vaccine have a point.

 

[El-Jefe]

If we show your post to a man in the street, he would say those sound like the generality-filled, nonspecific words of a politician. He would highlight:

“If you're looking for a "right now" solution, Rome wasn't built in a day.”

And he would roll his contempt-filled eyes and say:

This politician is not building any trust with me. He is allowing the pandemic to become entrenched by wasting many months. He is talking philosophy and platitudes while we need a “right now” solution. He talks as if we should not want a “right now” solution. I'll act like it's a crisis when this person starts acting like it's a crisis.

Maybe a man on your street.

And that's the point. Your street isn't representative of the audience.

If you want to solve the problem, try to see it from that audience's perspective. Or, carry on and wonder why it doesn't get solved.

 

[Dogwelder]

So then what happens in a few years if side effects are discovered? Does full approval get rejected?

If not, then why wait?

If so, then those resisting the vaccine have a point.

Fear of “side effects” is one rationalization for anti-vaxxers. But many anti-vaxxers also are anti-maskers. For them, what is the side effect they fear from wearing masks for a visit to Target? And do the anti-vaxxers also avoid other things with side effects, such as smoking, being fat, etc? It is plain that the “side effects” is a mere rationalization and is not the real reason, for many, many people.

 

[crablegs1]

I'm not a PSU parent but among those I know who aren't getting vaccinated, nearly all cite "experimental vaccine."

That is the official status of the vaccine, according to the FDA.

There is also major distrust of our institutions, which was earned before the virus hit and validated numerous times since.

You truly believe once it gets fully approved any of these people will change their mind? There is always another excuse. That is how the world of conspiracy works. There is no fact that can ever prove a conspiracy theory incorrect.

 

[El-Jefe]

Fear of “side effects” is one rationalization for anti-vaxxers. But many anti-vaxxers also are anti-maskers. For them, what is the side effect they fear from wearing masks for a visit to Target? And do the anti-vaxxers also avoid other things with side effects, such as smoking, being fat, etc? It is plain that the “side effects” is a mere rationalization and is not the real reason, for many, many people.

Why don't you ask Gabe Dean those things?

Reiterating my earlier point: the assumptions about who is not getting the vaccine, are not helping.

 

[Dogwelder]

… If you want to solve the problem, try to see it from that audience's perspective. Or, carry on and wonder why it doesn't get solved.

Yes, the big problem of tribalism in the US fanned by decades of repeated lies and repeated ill-reasoned but emotionally seductive name calling is a big problem. It’s the biggest problem that prevents all other problems from being properly solved.

But there are still problems such as COVID and climate change that we need to try to solve despite the shackles of tribalism and it’s consequent permanent-war block voting.

It’s nice of you to point out the underlying bigger problem that shackles us, but it’s not particularly helpful to derail all specific discussions to the single underlying bigger problem. In particular, it is not true that we literally cannot do anything about COVID until everyone trusts government.

 

[El-Jefe]

You truly believe once it gets fully approved any of these people will change their mind? There is always another excuse. That is how the world of conspiracy works. There is no fact that can ever prove a conspiracy theory incorrect.

Any? Of course. Many? Probably not. And I said as much in another post.

But let's do a thought experiment: how did the J&J "pause" affect vaccination rates, short-term and long-term?

 

[ss7]

So then what happens in a few years if side effects are discovered? Does full approval get rejected?

If not, then why wait?

If so, then those resisting the vaccine have a point.

To be clear, I am not an expert on this subject...

I don't know exactly what would happen. I would guess it depends on the severity of the side effects that are discovered. If severe, I would think full approval is denied. If not severe, I would think it gets full approval, but maybe some guidance on who the risks of the side effects outweigh the risks of the disease being immunized against.

But this is part of the process. And your previous comments indicating the FDA isn't acting as though there is a crisis just doesn't hold true to me.

 

[El-Jefe]

Yes, the big problem of tribalism in the US fanned by decades of repeated lies and repeated ill-reasoned but emotionally seductive name calling is a big problem. It’s the biggest problem that prevents all other problems from being properly solved.

But there are still problems such as COVID and climate change that we need to try to solve despite the shackles of tribalism and it’s consequent permanent-war block voting.

It’s nice of you to point out the underlying bigger problem that shackles us, but it’s not particularly helpful to derail all specific discussions to the single underlying bigger problem. In particular, it is not true that we literally cannot do anything about COVID until everyone trusts government.

Ok, the your turn to point out what can be done to persuade people?

BTW, I didn't only point at government. The rot is much deeper than that.

 

[Lyons212]

I would appreciate everyone's position if they just claimed they didn't want the vaccine for political reasons. I'd say right on. Do what you gotta do. But they know that doesn't sound very intelligent. So instead they go with it's not approved, or it was rushed to market, etc...
But if they really believe they have the odds on their side by not being vaccinated, I am holding a high stakes poker game at the cottage this weekend. They are all welcome. Cash on the barrel only.

Johns Hopkins has a Covid risk calculator, my risk of dying from Covid in the next 30 days is 1 in 232,000. Does that seem like a high risk? Annualized that is about 1 in 19,000. Your annual risk of dying in a car accident is 1 in 8,000. Too many people forgot that the government marketed the Covid vaccine as a way to prevent you from getting Covid and transmitting Covid to others. Too many people ignored the actual fine print, the vaccine is not actually a vaccine since it does not actually prevent you from getting Covid or giving it to others. Apparently it is actually a therapy that will reduce your symptoms. That is what is playing out now, numerous break through cases occuring in people who got the Covid shot. This is getting worse along with an increase in hospitalizations, ICU and death for the vaccinated if you look at data from Israel.

Regarding masks, they do not work. Please provide the study using a randomized control trial that demonstrates a benefit of wearing a mask and preventing transmission of a respiratory virus. Here is a RCT study that shows no benefit that is published on the NIH website:

Effectiveness of Adding a Mask Recommendation to Other Public Health Measures to Prevent SARS-CoV-2 Infection in Danish Mask Wearers : A Randomized Controlled Trial - PubMed

The Salling Foundations.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

There are about 10 to 15 other studies going back 50 years that also demonstate no benefit to wearing a mask. There are ZERO RCT studies that demonstrate a benefit to wearing a mask. Studies using computer simulations, manequins or anecdotes do not count.

I will not get the Covid shot since I am at little risk. I also take a daily prophylaxis too and make sure I am not obese or vitamin D deficient (these are 2 huge risk factors). To me, the risk of the Covid shot outwears the reward. Currently there are over 12,000 deaths associated with the Covid shot in the VAERS database, this is more than all other vaccines combined over the last 30 years.

If you think the shot was the correct decision for you, good for you, may you live long and prosper, or not.

 

[Dogwelder]

Ok, the your turn to point out what can be done to persuade people?

BTW, I didn't only point at government. The rot is much deeper than that.

This COVID thread is bad enough. We cannot hijack it into becoming the tribalism thread, too. I decline to participate in your new topic on this thread.

 

[crablegs1]

Any? Of course. Many? Probably not. And I said as much in another post.

But let's do a thought experiment: how did the J&J "pause" affect vaccination rates, short-term and long-term?

I think short term it had a big effect. Long term, roughly zero. The pause was a mistake.

And if you think it’s not going to matter, why give any credence to the people that use it as an excuse. It makes no difference whether we’re operating under emergency authority or full approval.

 

[ss7]

I think short term it had a big effect. Long term, roughly zero. The pause was a mistake.

And if you think it’s not going to matter, why give any credence to the people that use it as an excuse. It makes no difference whether we’re operating under emergency authority or full approval.

I'm not sure the pause was a complete mistake. It showed that there was a willingness investigate and react to adverse side effects of the vaccine(s). It serves as a direct refutation of people that say all the negatives are being ignored and that regulators cannot be trusted.

Now...whether that makes a bit of difference to any vaccine skeptic, I have severe doubts. But it did serve that purpose and, in my opinion, was worth addressing.

 

[El-Jefe]

Johns Hopkins has a Covid risk calculator, my risk of dying from Covid in the next 30 days is 1 in 232,000. Does that seem like a high risk? Annualized that is about 1 in 19,000. Your annual risk of dying in a car accident is 1 in 8,000. Too many people forgot that the government marketed the Covid vaccine as a way to prevent you from getting Covid and transmitting Covid to others. Too many people ignored the actual fine print, the vaccine is not actually a vaccine since it does not actually prevent you from getting Covid or giving it to others. Apparently it is actually a therapy that will reduce your symptoms. That is what is playing out now, numerous break through cases occuring in people who got the Covid shot. This is getting worse along with an increase in hospitalizations, ICU and death for the vaccinated if you look at data from Israel.

Regarding masks, they do not work. Please provide the study using a randomized control trial that demonstrates a benefit of wearing a mask and preventing transmission of a respiratory virus. Here is a RCT study that shows no benefit that is published on the NIH website:

Effectiveness of Adding a Mask Recommendation to Other Public Health Measures to Prevent SARS-CoV-2 Infection in Danish Mask Wearers : A Randomized Controlled Trial - PubMed

The Salling Foundations.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

There are about 10 to 15 other studies going back 50 years that also demonstate no benefit to wearing a mask. There are ZERO RCT studies that demonstrate a benefit to wearing a mask. Studies using computer simulations, manequins or anecdotes do not count.

I will not get the Covid shot since I am at little risk. I also take a daily prophylaxis too and make sure I am not obese or vitamin D deficient (these are 2 huge risk factors). To me, the risk of the Covid shot outwears the reward. Currently there are over 12,000 deaths associated with the Covid shot in the VAERS database, this is more than all other vaccines combined over the last 30 years.

If you think the shot was the correct decision for you, good for you, may you live long and prosper, or not.

The part here about the vaccine is not true. Since you cited Johns Hopkins, then read their data on the vaccine itself.

Pfizer and Moderna were both upwards of 95% effective at preventing the virus in clinical trials when measured against the control group.. That means both are in the 99% effective prevention range.

That is an extraordinary figure. The J&J shot, 70% effective vs. the control group, would also be among the historically most effective vaccines.

The "breakthrough cases, while concerning, have been remarkably overhyped. As of last week, 6,600 breakthru cases out of 167M vaccinated people. (And of course, fewer hospitalizations and deaths.)

Whatever choice you make, I respect it, but please make it based upon real information.

 

[El-Jefe]

I'm not sure the pause was a complete mistake. It showed that there was a willingness investigate and react to adverse side effects of the vaccine(s). It serves as a direct refutation of people that say all the negatives are being ignored and that regulators cannot be trusted.

Now...whether that makes a bit of difference to any vaccine skeptic, I have severe doubts. But it did serve that purpose and, in my opinion, was worth addressing.

The data showed that the J&J pause caused all vaccination rated to decline. I.e., people who were scheduled for J&J did not switch over to Pfizer and Moderna -- they stopped. (And it was over so few incidences too.)

Not unique to USA -- the Euro pause on Astra Zeneca had the same effect.

Also while this is less of a domestic concerns, these pauses caused huge vaccination problems in other parts of the world. Less free countries propagandized the hell out of all western vaccines because of the pauses-- and the locals don't trust Sinovac (for good reason) -- so in many places very few people other than expats got jabbed. Which is part of why these variants are popping up.

 

[PSU Mike]

I'm not a PSU parent but among those I know who aren't getting vaccinated, nearly all cite "experimental vaccine."

That is the official status of the vaccine, according to the FDA.

There is also major distrust of our institutions, which was earned before the virus hit and validated numerous times since.

And 80% citing “experimental vaccine” will still not get it after it gets full approval.

 

[El-Jefe]

And 80% citing “experimental vaccine” will still not get it after it gets full approval.

In which case, let's remove that obstacle from the 20% who would.

 

[Cali_Nittany]

Interesting, I must have missed where we let Japan get away with Pearl Harbor.

To your point: first there needs to be accountability. Lots of heads need to roll.

Next, people in leadership need to do the hard work of truly caring about others instead of caring about ruling others.

If you're looking for a "right now" solution, Rome wasn't built in a day.

There is one thing that could be done quickly. I'm old enough to remember when former presidents would get together for hurricane relief. Why hasn't this been attempted yet? Leadership.

The fact is that there is not one large homogenous group to be addressed. There are many groups that all look and think differently, yet have reached the same conclusion. They may have some common concerns, but ultimately the real work is at the individual or small group level.

Of course the easy and fun thing to do is mock one group while ignoring or exusing the rest. That group has noticed and reacted accordingly.

Actually, leadership has been shown by 3 of our former presidents quite similar to the past hurricane relief efforts (link)

The abdication of leadership rests at the feet of Trump. Even though he got vaccinated, along with Melania and Junior, he refuses to promote the vaccine because it goes against his political self-interest.

 

[Dogwelder]

Johns Hopkins has a Covid risk calculator, my risk of dying from Covid in the next 30 days is 1 in 232,000. Does that seem like a high risk? Annualized that is about 1 in 19,000. Your annual risk of dying in a car accident is 1 in 8,000. …

Uh. Annualize a potentially highly volatile number? Have you considered the exponential growth if we let COVID get out of hand? The breeding ground for mutations? That hospitals are running out of ICU beds again?

“My chance of dying in a fire is really low, when there is no fire yet. So I’ll just leave these piles of oil-soaked rags here in the sun against my haystack against my house.”

You are supposed to close the barn door before the horses get out.

 

[El-Jefe]

Uh. Annualize a potentially highly volatile number? Have you considered the exponential growth if we let COVID get out of hand? The breeding ground for mutations? That hospitals are running out of ICU beds again?

“My chance of dying in a fire is really low, when there is no fire yet. So I’ll just leave these piles of oil-soaked rags here in the sun against my haystack against my house.”

You are supposed to close the barn door before the horses get out.

This is an anti-vaxx argument: how does COVID get out of hand if 167M Americans have gotten a vaccine that works?

 

[a_mshaffer]

I need to take a look at France - they had a unique approach to simply enable herd immunity...
I doubt I will though...

 

[dmm53]

UPDATED: Penn State’s faculty senate passes ‘vote of no confidence’ on university’s fall COVID-19 plan​

https://www.centredaily.com/news/local/education/penn-state/article253466809.html

 

[oldcougar65]

This is an anti-vaxx argument: how does COVID get out of hand if 167M Americans have gotten a vaccine that works?

Of course COVID is spreading among the remaining unvaccinated Americans and is only minimally affecting the vaccinated. Any statistical analysis of new cases and new deaths show that they lean heavily towards the unvaccinated. And those vaccinated that get COVID have mitigated symptoms. And the longer we allow this virus to thrive, the more likely that additional, perhaps deadly variants will develop. One would think that it's a no-brainer.

 

[Dogwelder]

This is an anti-vaxx argument: how does COVID get out of hand if 167M Americans have gotten a vaccine that works?

No. That is a question with answers. That is not an argument. Please be precise and thoughtful.

Answer: it spreads among the unvaccinated and gets out of hand. If it mutates enough, the mutated version can spread among all people, which is called getting even more out of hand.

 

[82bordeaux]

Johns Hopkins has a Covid risk calculator, my risk of dying from Covid in the next 30 days is 1 in 232,000. Does that seem like a high risk? Annualized that is about 1 in 19,000. Your annual risk of dying in a car accident is 1 in 8,000. Too many people forgot that the government marketed the Covid vaccine as a way to prevent you from getting Covid and transmitting Covid to others. Too many people ignored the actual fine print, the vaccine is not actually a vaccine since it does not actually prevent you from getting Covid or giving it to others. Apparently it is actually a therapy that will reduce your symptoms. That is what is playing out now, numerous break through cases occuring in people who got the Covid shot. This is getting worse along with an increase in hospitalizations, ICU and death for the vaccinated if you look at data from Israel.

Regarding masks, they do not work. Please provide the study using a randomized control trial that demonstrates a benefit of wearing a mask and preventing transmission of a respiratory virus. Here is a RCT study that shows no benefit that is published on the NIH website:

Effectiveness of Adding a Mask Recommendation to Other Public Health Measures to Prevent SARS-CoV-2 Infection in Danish Mask Wearers : A Randomized Controlled Trial - PubMed

The Salling Foundations.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

There are about 10 to 15 other studies going back 50 years that also demonstate no benefit to wearing a mask. There are ZERO RCT studies that demonstrate a benefit to wearing a mask. Studies using computer simulations, manequins or anecdotes do not count.

I will not get the Covid shot since I am at little risk. I also take a daily prophylaxis too and make sure I am not obese or vitamin D deficient (these are 2 huge risk factors). To me, the risk of the Covid shot outwears the reward. Currently there are over 12,000 deaths associated with the Covid shot in the VAERS database, this is more than all other vaccines combined over the last 30 years.

If you think the shot was the correct decision for you, good for you, may you live long and prosper, or not.

Currently there are over 12,000 deaths associated with the Covid shot in the VAERS database, this is more than all other vaccines combined over the last 30 years.

The US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) requires vaccination providers to report any death after COVID-19 vaccination to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS).

The statement above is a totally misleading statement. Either you do not understand the reporting system, or you are purposely trying to mislead people. If you do not understand the reporting system, fine. If you are trying to mislead people, I would ask you why?

 

[SRATH]

Actually, leadership has been shown by 3 of our former presidents quite similar to the past hurricane relief efforts (link)

The abdication of leadership rests at the feet of Trump. Even though he got vaccinated, along with Melania and Junior, he refuses to promote the vaccine because it goes against his political self-interest.

Certainly not a Trump fan but you have vaccines today because of Trump. Traditional politicians would have never gotten the public private sector working this fast…while 1/2 the country was busy resisting. Love him or hate him, he cut through Washington bull crap and got stuff done.

 

[El-Jefe]

No. That is a question with answers. That is not an argument. Please be precise and thoughtful.

Answer: it spreads among the unvaccinated and gets out of hand. If it mutates enough, the mutated version can spread among all people, which is called getting even more out of hand.

It is exactly an argument, because they pose it as a rhetorical question.

The term "out of hand" lends itself directly to their point -- that this is fear-mongering. (Again, this is about the perspective of people who need to be persuaded.)

And there is absolutely no data to show that a mutated version will spread among all people -- in fact, the breakthru data (6600 cases out of 167M = less than 0.004% breakthru rate = 99.996% effectivity) shows that the vaccine is a spectacular success in the real world. THIS is what needs to be emphasized.

Pro-vaccine people -- all of us, at the individual and institutional levels -- need to stop making anti-vaxx points for the anti-vaxxers, essentially persuading undecideds away from the vaccine and cementing the positions of those who might be persuaded back.

 

[82bordeaux]

Certainly not a Trump fan but you have vaccines today because of Trump. Traditional politicians would have never gotten the public private sector working this fast…while 1/2 the country was busy resisting. Love him or hate him, he cut through Washington bull crap and got stuff done.

 

[Dogwelder]

It is exactly an argument, because they pose it as a rhetorical question.

The term "out of hand" lends itself directly to their point -- that this is fear-mongering. (Again, this is about the perspective of people who need to be persuaded.)

And there is absolutely no data to show that a mutated version will spread among all people -- in fact, the breakthru data (6600 cases out of 167M, less than 0.004% breakthru rate --> 99.996% effectivity) shows that the vaccine is a spectacular success.

Pro-vaccine people -- all of us, at the individual and institutional levels -- need to stop making anti-vaxx points for the anti-vaxxers, essentially persuading undecideds away from the vaccine and cementing the positions of those who might be persuaded back.

Thank you for role playing the anti-vaxxers and their favorite pronouns. Maybe the anti-vaxxers can direct me to sensitivity training so I can avoid their trigger words. I’m sure once I wean myself from the English language and use only Antiva-bonics, we will have intelligent, science-based discourse.

 

[tikk10]

Currently there are over 12,000 deaths associated with the Covid shot in the VAERS database, this is more than all other vaccines combined over the last 30 years.

The US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) requires vaccination providers to report any death after COVID-19 vaccination to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS).

The statement above is a totally misleading statement. Either you do not understand the reporting system, or you are purposely trying to mislead people. If you do not understand the reporting system, fine. If you are trying to mislead people, I would ask you why?

Just to echo your point, I've had to occasionally sort through Adverse Event Reports (in other contexts), and "associated with" is a million miles from "caused by," which is what's being conflated here. That there'd be 12,000 'associations' between Covid vaccines and adverse events is unsurprising and probably even quite low, because some people will have contracted Covid around the same time as getting the vaccine. Adverse Event Reports are also self-reported and not necessarily investigated.