I’d rather keep the rule as it is...don’t want defenders just batting balls any chance they get towards their opponent’s end zone if they don’t have a clear recovery. Though I do agree that a spot foul makes more sense on the application of the penalty in today’s instance than taking it from the previous LOS.
Batting penalty...
- Thread starter Madsol
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Exactly, the rulebook clearly defines forward and backward by the team with offensive possession ("forward pass", "backward pass"...... "forward lateral", "forward progress", etc...). The ball was batted "backwards" (very slightly backward, but backward) under rulebook definitions.
Lol...so you’re arguing that you can bat the ball as much as you want towards the end zone that you’re trying to score at with a lose ball on defense, but helping out the offense and batting it in their direction is a penalty? Holy crap.
Forward and backward are defined by the rulebook Mr. LOL (i.e., dipshit) and they are relative to the team with offensive possession. The rule states that the ball cannot be batted "forward" - it was not batted forward under rulebook definition.
Really? Then explain Rule 2, Section 9, from this year’s NCAA Rulebook...
Forward, Beyond
Forward Progress
ARTICLE 1. Forward, beyond or in advance of, as related to either team, denotes direction toward the opponent’s end line. Converse terms are backward or behind.
Try looking up possession now genius - or can 2 teams both have possession simultaneously? They can't moron. Michigan was IN POSSESSION OF THE BALL at the time the ball was touched - the ball was batted backward according to the rulebook which is most definitely RELATIVE to the team IN POSSESSION at the time of the touching.
Backwards is relative for each team regardless of possession, as Rule 2, Section 9 clearly states...which team has possession of the ball at the start of the play is meaningless for the existence of the penalty itself, it only comes into play in the application of the penalty.
I thought this was a pretty basic rule/concept, but leave it to Bushwood to make shit up, get it wrong, argue with people that actually understand football rules, etc.
Talk to any official that knows what they are talking about and ask them about this play...the NCAA case book doesn’t even get into it since it’s pretty easy to understand which direction is forwards and backwards for each team.
You're full of crap - Michigan was IN POSSESSION of the ball at the time of the touch - two teams cannot be in possession of the ball simultaneously genius. The ball was batted backwards which is absolutely relative to the team in possession of the ball at the time of the touch.
The NFL rules spell it out even better for those like Bushwood that can’t process Rule 2, Section 9 (and what “forward” means for each team)...
SECTION 5 - ILLEGAL BATS AND KICKS
ARTICLE 1. ILLEGAL BAT
It is an illegal bat if:
SECTION 5 - ILLEGAL BATS AND KICKS
ARTICLE 1. ILLEGAL BAT
It is an illegal bat if:
- any player bats or punches a loose ball in the field of play toward his opponent’s goal line
- any player bats or punches a loose ball (that has touched the ground) in any direction, if it is in either end zone
- an offensive player bats a backward pass in flight toward his opponent’s goal line
Yes, watching the replay, ball was batted sideways and appears to have hit the foot of another PSU defender (#13 Brooks I think) and then changed direction in PSU's favor. Not a legit penalty even by the letter of the law, at least IMO after seeing it a few times.
Here's what definitively proves you are absolutely wrong and full of shit. You're trying to claim that a defensive player is not permitted to intentionally bat a backward pass or lateral (this would be governed under this exact same rule) and you're absolutely full of shit - a defensive player is absolutely allowed to bat a backward lateral or pass further backwards ("forward" according to your absurd and bullshit claims). A backward pass or lateral is a "loose ball" and it is absolutely legal for a defender to bat it further "backwards" (defined by team in possession) contrary to your inane claims that it is illegal and a 10 yard penalty from the prior spot to do so.
If you actually opened up a Rule Book, you’d see that Rule 9, Section 4 immediately following “Batting a Loose Ball”(Article 1), is Article 2, which just so happens to be titled “Batting a Backwards Pass in Flight”, and covers that rule. But clearly opening a Rule Book and finding this stuff is more than a rules expert such as yourself would need. Just make shit up and hope for the best.
“Governed under this same exact rule”, when you’d literally have to read one more sentence in the rule book to see they aren’t...never change Bushwood!
No dipshit, you're the one making stuff up - it's a subsection under the exact same rule! You're attempting to say that possession determines forward and backward under one subsection of the rule but not the other and you're full of crap - the rule has no such disparate definitions between subsections for forward and backward clownboy.
By the way genius, it is the exact same "Rule" - a different subsection but the same Rule.
Also btw genius, BOTH subsections reference the term "forward" as one direction relative to the team in possession of the ball with no other clarifications (contrary to your made-up bs claims). Utter nonsense that the same exact RULE has different definitions for the terms "forward" and "backward" (which are used repeatedly throughout the rule) depending upon the subsection of the rule, but has zero language within the rule as to these ever changing definitions (according to you) of the terms "forward" and "backward" which are used repeatedly throughout Rule 9, Section 4.
Congrats for actually reading the rule...unfortunately, you’re still struggling with the application of it, and the fact that “forward” for one team is “backwards” for the other, since they are going in different directions.
Again, look at the NFL rule below...that should make it easier for you to understand (unless you think the NFL Rule, and high school for that matter, is the opposite of the college rule)...
SECTION 5 - ILLEGAL BATS AND KICKS
ARTICLE 1. ILLEGAL BAT
It is an illegal bat if:
any player bats or punches a loose ball in the field of play toward his opponent’s goal line
Again, look at the NFL rule below...that should make it easier for you to understand (unless you think the NFL Rule, and high school for that matter, is the opposite of the college rule)...
SECTION 5 - ILLEGAL BATS AND KICKS
ARTICLE 1. ILLEGAL BAT
It is an illegal bat if:
any player bats or punches a loose ball in the field of play toward his opponent’s goal line
It is like the play never happened, Hardy made a great play dose he get a sack and fumble on the play? Great play all around from Hardy, Toney and Oweh. Whatever the rule is it should be thrown out. I thought they called it back because Toney stepped out then was the first to touch it not for batting.
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So now because an obscure rule went against PSU, it should be thrown out. Endless entertainment here.
CJFisJoePa and Erial appear to be arguing about what constitutes "backward" and "forward" in the rule book and, given that it varies depending on the perspective of which team you are talking about (the team on offense or the team on defense), the whole thing gives me a bit of a headache.
It seems to me that a player who is desperately trying to save the ball from going out of bounds does not really have the time to consider whether he is advancing the ball with his "bat," and is, instead, more concerned with trying to direct it back into the field of play. If he has time to think of anything, he is probably more likely to want to direct the ball towards his nearest teammate in order to facilitate recovery of the ball by his team.
What happened with Toney is so FAR different than the Holy Roller play that is part of Raiders lore that there is simply no comparison. I think there should be no penalty for a defender trying to bat the ball to save it from going out of bounds, regardless of whether it goes a few yards "forwards" or "backwards."
It seems to me that a player who is desperately trying to save the ball from going out of bounds does not really have the time to consider whether he is advancing the ball with his "bat," and is, instead, more concerned with trying to direct it back into the field of play. If he has time to think of anything, he is probably more likely to want to direct the ball towards his nearest teammate in order to facilitate recovery of the ball by his team.
What happened with Toney is so FAR different than the Holy Roller play that is part of Raiders lore that there is simply no comparison. I think there should be no penalty for a defender trying to bat the ball to save it from going out of bounds, regardless of whether it goes a few yards "forwards" or "backwards."
Agree that this was the correct call based on the rule book, but also agree that this needs to be changed. The defense makes multiple good plays on the same down, ... a forced fumble, great athletic play to keep the ball in bounds, and a scoop and score, yet the offense gets the ball, 10 yards closer to the goaline, and a 1st down to boot (although not automatic).
P.S. The skunk bears were called for all of one penalty today. Nothing changes.
P.S. The skunk bears were called for all of one penalty today. Nothing changes.
Again, you're full of shit and making crap up - the NFL rule is worded distinctly different than the NCAA rule, so it's absurd and utterly incorrect to say that one should refer to the NFL rule and wording rather than the NCAA wording. It's like saying an NCAA receiver has to get both feet down, rather than just one foot down, for a legal reception because the NFL rule book reads that way?!?! Wrong genius, that isn't how it works, lmfao.
The NFL Rulebook specifically distinguishes between rules that apply for an airborne "loose ball" that never touches the ground and rules that apply once it has touched the ground - the NCAA Rulebook does no such thing. So the NFL has two different rules for a batted airborne fumble and a batted fumble that has hit the ground - again the NCAA Rulebook makes no such distinction. Furthermore, the NFL Rulebook uses all kinds of highly specific language for the latter case (i.e., loose ball that has hit the ground) because the only thing that is illegal for a batted airborne fumble is for it to be batted forward and the term "forward" is relative to the team in possession of the ball prior to fumble. Again, none of the highly specialized language for the latter case about player goal lines, etc... exists in the NCAA Rulebook contrary to your bullshit claims!
IOW, if a fumble pops into the air near the sideline, it is perfectly legal to bat the ball backwards RELATIVE TO THE TEAM IN POSSESSION by any player in both the NFL and NCAA. The NFL has created an entire subsection for fumbles that touch the ground and rules that apply to bats once a fumble has touched the ground (including highly specific language that differs substantially from the former situation). The NCAA makes no such disinguishment and only uses the terms "forward" and "backward" relative to the team in possession throughout in its "Rule 9, Section 4 Batting and Kicking" (the term forward and backward are tied to the team in possession which is why the NFL has an entire paragraph of specialized language using team goal lines etc. for their latter case where the ball hits ground. Again, there is no such distinguishment in the NCAA Rulebook contrary to your bs claims).
Under the NCAA Rulebook, "forward" and "backward" are absolutely relative to the team in possession of the ball and it was not an illegal bat. Your claim that the NFL rule, not the NCAA rule, applies here is complete horseshit. You're essentially claiming the NFL rule applies and had the ball popped into the air and the PSU player batted it backward to save it from going OB, it would be legal, but that once the ball hit the ground, the rule changes... You're flat wrong, the NFL makes this distinction, but the NCAA rule makes no such distinction.
I’m not claiming that the NFL rule applies here instead of the NCAA rule...I’m trying to explain that on the play we saw yesterday, the NCAA rule is the same as the NFL rule. This isn’t a “one foot vs two feet on a catch” scenario where they differ. You actually think in the NCAA, it’s illegal to bat a fumble towards your opponent’s goal line, but in the NFL, it’s completely flipped and illegal to bat towards your own goal line?
It all goes back to Rule 2, Section 9, that defines “forward” as towards the opponent’s goal line. Forward for the defense is backwards for the offense.
It’s not that hard. Unless you’re completely trolling me at this point for a laugh, and don’t actually believe what you’re typing.
I have to agree it is the correct call. But it is also a call typically never made. 49/51 call. I see this all the time and it is never called. Amazing how many weird things happen to make psu one of the worst turnovers teams in the nation.
Wrong dipshit, the NFL and NCAA rules are not the same, you're full of shit and keep making the same bs claim. The NFL rule and NCAA rule are the same for fumbles that are batted while airborne and the only direction the ball cannot be batted is "forward" relative to the team with offensive possession of ball at the time (IOW, completely legal for defensive player to bat an airborne fumble that hasn't touched ground backwards relative to the offensive LOS). The NFL has a second provision for fumbles that touch ground which has completely different wording - there is no such section in the NCAA Rulebook numbskull, only one rule for batting a fumble in the offensive possession of the other team. Under NCAA rules the defensive player is permitted to bat the ball backwards relative to the offensive LOS - airborne, or not, the NCAA makes no such distinction.
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I’ve watched football for about 40 years now. I don’t think I’ve ever seen it called on a defensive player, though I’ve seen it happen many times. And every time I see it happen I wonder, “Isn’t that illegal?” but it never gets called so I just assumed it was not a penalty in the defensive team. I think it was probably the right call but a call that is never made.
The rule currently reads that "forward" and "backward" are relative to the team with offensive possession (as does the NFL rule for all airborne loose balls - i.e., the defensive player can bat an airborne loose ball - via fumble, backward pass or otherwise... - backwards relative to the offensive LOS. The NFL has created a specialized subsection for a loose ball that hits the ground - no such specialized subsection exists in NCAA Rulebook.).
Think about it logically - the offense can literally throw the ball as far backwards as it wants relative to the LOS. It's a live ball, it is not illegal for a defender to bat a live offensively possessed ball.
That was the 2008 game. Rubin grabbed Prior by the jersey after he knocked the ball out of his hands. Tyrell Sayles batted the ball downfield big time away from the Buckeyes OL, and Bowman made the recovery. Surprised penalties were not called, but we won!
Continuing to state the wrong fact doesn’t make it true...Again, here is the definition of “forward”...the team in possession is irrelevant...forward for one team is backwards for the other.
SECTION 9. Forward, Beyond
ARTICLE 1. Forward, beyond or in advance of, as related to either team, denotes direction toward the opponent’s end line. Converse terms are backward or behind.
Technically it is, when the punting team touches the punt an illegal touch in which the ball is at worse dead there and the receiving team's ball. That is why sometimes when you see the kicking team try to down the ball, but they just tap it, the receiving team will try to pick up the ball and run with it, because once the kicking team's player touches the ball the worse that can happen for the receiving team is to get the ball where it was touched.
Punts are not the same as a loose ball and are not treated the same in the rule book.
That is where I stand as well. I see players bat the ball during scrambles for fumbles. Not lost is that all the announcers had no idea and were caught off guard by the cash.
on the other side we got a good call on the other fumble and at least one very favorable spot
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"on the other side we got a good call on the other fumble"
I presume you are referring to the fumble by Washington where UM picked it up and took it in for score early in the game? If so, I agree with you 100%. Although I believe he "probably" was down before fumbling, there is no way you could say definitely via the tv replays and I fully expected the call on the field "to stand". That was a big call at that time of the game - it could have sent us into another "here we go again" spiral.
Even if they ruled it ws a fumble, the score wouldn't have counted because the UM player's knee was on the ground when he picked it up.
Big,big break for PSU at that time of the game.
Question, let's say the ball is headed out of bounds and the player dives for it and while in the air grabs it and throws it back in bounds. [You see this with punts near the goal lone]. Penalty? I guess not based on the rule as explained here.
No. If he controlled it that would be a lateral, assuming he didn’t throw it forward
Just to throw gasoline on the fire......once a ball is fumbled no on has possession. It’s a free ball.
Not sure that is right Obli if a player is airborne and grabs and throws the ball before hitting the ground is he really considered taking possession [thus a lateral]. In the case above IF Toney had grabbed the ball [taken possession] thrown it back in bounds and UM recovered is it automatic first for UM on another possession change?
Picture this scenario: A QB laterals to a back twenty yards away and five yards behind him on a third and nine A blitzing back penetrates and bats the ball to prevent the completion of the lateral. He catches up to the ball and runs it in for a TD. Result is a penalty and a first down for the lateralling team? Rule should be changed to the last team to possess the ball cannot bat it towards the opponent's goal. Ten yard penalty from the spot where the ball was batted.
Another scenario under the current rule: A returner takes a kick in his own end zone. He runs it back down the right sideline and a defender punches the ball out at the kicking team's twenty. The returner bats the ball out of bounds at the fifteen to keep a defender from recovering it. How does the penalty get assessed?
Another scenario under the current rule: A returner takes a kick in his own end zone. He runs it back down the right sideline and a defender punches the ball out at the kicking team's twenty. The returner bats the ball out of bounds at the fifteen to keep a defender from recovering it. How does the penalty get assessed?
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