What Things Would Look Like Had Penn State Not Joined The Big Ten

[BUFFALO LION]

That would have been fantastic !,Joe supposedly had the Fiesta locked in for the champion.
Here's the catch that most people forget , three of the above mentioned schools EXCLUDED us from basketball, they wanted their own basketball conference.Exclusion was not only the monkey on our back in the Big 10 but also in the proposed Eastern Conference.WHY?

They considered us a "Farm School". Dave Gavitt, Big East Commissioner at the time, thought Pitt would bring in a bigger television market. Especially for a basketball oriented Conference.

And whereas Joe thought the only way the new Conference would survive was through Penn State and Pitt sharing their revenue with the other members (since they were the two most profitable schools at the time), Pitt at first agreed, and then in the middle of the night, turned tail and ran for the Big East TV money.

Too bad. I personally would have loved to have seen it.

 

[BUFFALO LION]

I frankly would rather travel to ACC destinations. If Penn State could somehow convince ND to become a full partner if they joined the ACC with us...I'd be for it. I think the money would eventually even out over time.

For multiple reasons, ABC/ESPN has absolutely no desire for ND to become a member of the ACC. Especially in their current financial position.

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

Not necessarily. Joe was initially VERY loyal to the Eastern Schools. And he would have been the Conference's architect. He would have tried to keep it together at all costs.

With the television markets it would have controlled in future years (virtual monopoly on everything from Boston to Washington DC), and the increased integration of ALL sports, It could have become a giant.

As an Independent, I and many others never really followed the other schools outside of football season because they had no affect on us. But if they were part of our Conference, I would have been following schools like UConn, Maryland, and Pitt all year. The interest in College Sports in the Northeast would have been exponentially greater than it is now.

The 3 schools that screwed Joe in 1981 were Pitt, Syracuse, and Boston College. Add in cheaters and cover up artists like Florida State, North Carolina, and Louisville, and the Ohio State "tat scandal" looks like a mild case of jay walking. That is why I never want anything to do with the ACC.

Joe's 12 Team Hypothetical All Sports Conference 2016

Penn State
Pitt
Temple
Syracuse
Boston College
West Virginia
Virginia Tech
Miami
Maryland
Connecticut
Rutgers
Cincinnati

Boston College and SorryExcuse were "Founding Members" of the Big East Basketball Conference when it was founded in 1979 - it was founded as a Basketball Conference not an "all-sports conference" which is what JVP was lobbying for concurrently with the conferences founding. In any event, $hitsburgh, eeerrrrr I mean sPittsburgh, was not invited to join until three years later in 1981 and began competing in 1982.

Moreover, prior to the founding of Big East BASKETBALL Conference in 1979, PSU, sPitt, Villanova, Rutgers, West Virginia, Duquesne, GWU and UMass were the FOUNDING MEMBERS of the Atlantic10 4 years earlier in 1976 which was also a "Basketball only Conference" formed by many of the "Tradional Eastern Independent Major-College Football Programs" (specifically, PSU, ASWP, Rutgers and West Virginia). The other "Eastern Independent Major-College Football Programs" - SorryExcuse, BC and Temple competed in the ECAC Division I Tournament from 1975 until the Big East Basketball Conference was formed in 1979.

I don't know that much about it, but the ECAC was not a true "Collegiate Sports Conference" - it was a "loose affiliation" of schools that sponsored a DI Basketball Tournament at the end of the season prior to NCAA Tournament (they also sponsored DII and DII Tournaments) for teams that were primarily Independent (e.g., not affiliated with "all-sport conferences") and located on the Eastern Seaboard....they had "Regions" for the playoffs which were effectively New England, New York Metro, Middle Atlantic and Deep South. They offered their first tournaments in 1975 and I believe PSU was an eligible affiliate, but did not qualify. PSU then formed the Atlantic10 Basketball Conference in 1976 along with the other schools already mentioned. Syracuse, BC and Temple continued to compete in the ECAC post-season Tournaments until 1979 when the Big East Basketball Conference was formed by BC, SorryExcuse, UConn, G-Town, Providence, St. John's and Seton Hall. The Big East Basketball-only Conference then caused the collapse and reconstitution of the Atlantic10 Basketball-only Conference when it poached A10 Founding Member Villanova in 1980 and then poached the A10 again in 1982 in taking ASWP.

During the latter portion of the span discussed above - the Late-1970s and Early-1980s - JVP and PSU were lobbying the other "Traditional Eastern Independent Major-College Football Programs" - ASWP, SorryExcuse, BC, West Virginia, Temple and Rutgers to form a "Major College All-Sports Conference" similar to the ACC, SEC, B8, SWC, B2L8 and Pac10 which were in existence at the time. Several of the teams were in favor including WVU, ASWP, Temple and Rutgers.....the plan was to also ask Maryland to leave the ACC (UMd was a Founding Member of ACC in 1953) and join as a Founding Member as well as possibly the two major military institutions, Army in Westpoint, NY and Navy in Annapolis, MD. JVP was the primary, and most highly visible, advocate for the "Major College All-Sports Conference" for the "Traditional Eastern Independent Major-College Football Programs"; however, the Big East Basketball-Only Conference was against it from the start because only two of the Founding Big East Members played "Major College Football" (e.g., what would come to be NCAA Division I-A in the late 1970s) - BC and SorryExcuse. Well, BC and SorryExcuse decided to side with their small, primarily private-school friends in the Big East and actively opposed JVP's proposals for an "Eastern Major-College All-Sports Conference" and administered the "coup de grasse" by actively working on behalf of the Big East Basketball-Only Conference and secretly arranged for Pitt to be invited into the Big East in 1982 which not only completely divided the "Traditional Eastern Independent Major-College Football Programs" against one another on the issue, but also sent the Atlantic10 Basketball-Only Conference into a major tailspin as well given that the Big East had now poached the two strongest basketball programs from that Conference's Founding Members in 1980 and now 1982 (Nova and then Pitt respectively).

So you're only half-right in your assertions - the Big East was not an "all-sports conference" at the time, it was a Basketball-Only Conference in regards to revenue sports as was the A10.....the Big East did not even contemplate adding Football until PSU went to the B1G causing a major league problem for the revenues of their "Traditional Eastern Independent Major-College Football Programs" members. The Big East Basketball Conference - all of the Founding Members which included BC and SorryExcuse - invited ASWP in 1982 specifically to thwart and dynamite JVP's proposal for an "Eastern All-Sports Major-College Conference" and fatally divide the "Traditional Eastern-Independent Major-College Football Programs" one against the other (e.g., "divide and conquer") -- the Big East Basketball-Only Conference of the late 1970s NEVER had any intention of inviting PSU into the conference and converting it to an "All-Sport Major-College Conference" as this would have decimated three-quarters of its Founding Membership! JVP and PSU were the ENEMY to the Founders of the Big East Conference which was founded exclusively with Men's NCAA Major-College Basketball, and only Major-College Basketball, in mind -- they were never going to invite PSU nor had any intention of converting to an "All-Sport Major-College Eastern Conference" as JVP envisaged.

BC, SorryExcuse and, to a lesser extent, ASWP "made their bed" with their short-sighted, non-visionary, non-strategic thinking and as the saying goes, now they must sleep in it (the crappy overall revenues of the ACC relative to PSU's B1G Annual Revenues). F 'em.

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

They considered us a "Farm School". Dave Gavitt, Big East Commissioner at the time, thought Pitt would bring in a bigger television market. Especially for a basketball oriented Conference.

And whereas Joe thought the only way the new Conference would survive was through Penn State and Pitt sharing their revenue with the other members (since they were the two most profitable schools at the time), Pitt at first agreed, and then in the middle of the night, turned tail and ran for the Big East TV money.

Too bad. I personally would have loved to have seen it.

Not really - they considered us a threat to the "strategic direction" of the conference as the Big East was a Basketball-Only Major-College Conference, not an "All-Sport Major-College Conference" like the ACC, SEC, B8, SWC, B2L8 and Pac10 at the time. Three-quarters of the Big East were small, primarily private schools that did not play or have an interest in playing "Major-College Football". Only two of the "Founding Members" of the Big East (founded 1979) were even "Traditional Eastern-Independent Major-College Football Programs" who would have been capable of being a "Founding Member" in an "All-Sport Major-College Eastern Conference" (e.g., Paterno's Desire and Proposal) - BC and SorryExcuse. Far from your characterization, they viewed PSU as the Goliath Northeastern Athletic Program and University that would ultimately squeeze them out of their own conference if they let them in because three-quarters of the founding members of the Big East didn't paly "Major College Football", had no desire to do so and no ability to really persist in a conference that was morphed into a "Major-College All-Sport Conference" based in the Northeast and Middle Atlantic Regions.

 

[CF LION]

Boston College and SorryExcuse were "Founding Members" of the Big East Basketball Conference when it was founded in 1979 - it was founded as a Basketball Conference not an "all-sports conference" which is what JVP was lobbying for concurrently with the conferences founding. In any event, $hitsburgh, eeerrrrr I mean sPittsburgh, was not invited to join until three years later in 1981 and began competing in 1982.

Moreover, prior to the founding of Big East BASKETBALL Conference in 1979, PSU, sPitt, Villanova, Rutgers, West Virginia, Duquesne, GWU and UMass were the FOUNDING MEMBERS of the Atlantic10 4 years earlier in 1976 which was also a "Basketball only Conference" formed by many of the "Tradional Eastern Independent Major-College Football Programs" (specifically, PSU, ASWP, Rutgers and West Virginia). The other "Eastern Independent Major-College Football Programs" - SorryExcuse, BC and Temple competed in the ECAC Division I Tournament from 1975 until the Big East Basketball Conference was formed in 1979.

I don't know that much about it, but the ECAC was not a true "Collegiate Sports Conference" - it was a "loose affiliation" of schools that sponsored a DI Basketball Tournament at the end of the season prior to NCAA Tournament (they also sponsored DII and DII Tournaments) for teams that were primarily Independent (e.g., not affiliated with "all-sport conferences") and located on the Eastern Seaboard....they had "Regions" for the playoffs which were effectively New England, New York Metro, Middle Atlantic and Deep South. They offered their first tournaments in 1975 and I believe PSU was an eligible affiliate, but did not qualify. PSU then formed the Atlantic10 Basketball Conference in 1976 along with the other schools already mentioned. Syracuse, BC and Temple continued to compete in the ECAC post-season Tournaments until 1979 when the Big East Basketball Conference was formed by BC, SorryExcuse, UConn, G-Town, Providence, St. John's and Seton Hall. The Big East Basketball-only Conference then caused the collapse and reconstitution of the Atlantic10 Basketball-only Conference when it poached A10 Founding Member Villanova in 1980 and then poached the A10 again in 1982 in taking ASWP.

During the latter portion of the span discussed above - the Late-1970s and Early-1980s - JVP and PSU were lobbying the other "Traditional Eastern Independent Major-College Football Programs" - ASWP, SorryExcuse, BC, West Virginia, Temple and Rutgers to form a "Major College All-Sports Conference" similar to the ACC, SEC, B8, SWC, B2L8 and Pac10 which were in existence at the time. Several of the teams were in favor including WVU, ASWP, Temple and Rutgers.....the plan was to also ask Maryland to leave the ACC (UMd was a Founding Member of ACC in 1953) and join as a Founding Member as well as possibly the two major military institutions, Army in Westpoint, NY and Navy in Annapolis, MD. JVP was the primary, and most highly visible, advocate for the "Major College All-Sports Conference" for the "Traditional Eastern Independent Major-College Football Programs"; however, the Big East Basketball-Only Conference was against it from the start because only two of the Founding Big East Members played "Major College Football" (e.g., what would come to be NCAA Division I-A in the late 1970s) - BC and SorryExcuse. Well, BC and SorryExcuse decided to side with their small, primarily private-school friends in the Big East and actively opposed JVP's proposals for an "Eastern Major-College All-Sports Conference" and administered the "coup de grasse" by actively working on behalf of the Big East Basketball-Only Conference and secretly arranged for Pitt to be invited into the Big East in 1982 which not only completely divided the "Traditional Eastern Independent Major-College Football Programs" against one another on the issue, but also sent the Atlantic10 Basketball-Only Conference into a major tailspin as well given that the Big East had now poached the two strongest basketball programs from that Conference's Founding Members in 1980 and now 1982 (Nova and then Pitt respectively).

So you're only half-right in your assertions - the Big East was not an "all-sports conference" at the time, it was a Basketball-Only Conference in regards to revenue sports as was the A10.....the Big East did not even contemplate adding Football until PSU went to the B1G causing a major league problem for the revenues of their "Traditional Eastern Independent Major-College Football Programs" members. The Big East Basketball Conference - all of the Founding Members which included BC and SorryExcuse - invited ASWP in 1982 specifically to thwart and dynamite JVP's proposal for an "Eastern All-Sports Major-College Conference" and fatally divide the "Traditional Eastern-Independent Major-College Football Programs" one against the other (e.g., "divide and conquer") -- the Big East Basketball-Only Conference of the late 1970s NEVER had any intention of inviting PSU into the conference and converting it to an "All-Sport Major-College Conference" as this would have decimated three-quarters of its Founding Membership! JVP and PSU were the ENEMY to the Founders of the Big East Conference which was founded exclusively with Men's NCAA Major-College Basketball, and only Major-College Basketball, in mind -- they were never going to invite PSU nor had any intention of converting to an "All-Sport Major-College Eastern Conference" as JVP envisaged.

BC, SorryExcuse and, to a lesser extent, ASWP "made their bed" with their short-sighted, non-visionary, non-strategic thinking and as the saying goes, now they must sleep in it (the crappy overall revenues of the ACC relative to PSU's B1G Annual Revenues). F 'em.

I believe the conference was called the Eastern 8. That's what I remember from my days at Penn State.

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

I believe the conference was called the Eastern 8. That's what I remember from my days at Penn State.

Actually, I believe the conference was formed under the official name of the ECBL ("Eastern College Basketball League") and was popularly referred to as the "Eastern 8" (similar to the b1g shiz-hole really being called the Western Collegiate Athletic Conference...or whatever it was.....not the "Big" anything, that was just a popular nickname which was originally the "Big 9" I believe as their were originally 9 schools and alternated all the way down to the "Big 7", "Big 9", etc.. and back up to "Big 10" throughout the 1910s, 1920s, 1930s and 1940s until MSU was admitted in the 1940s.). In any event, "Eastern 8" was a nickname, not the official name just as "Atlantic10" was originally a nickname, not the actual name, to characterize the conference going to 10 schools in 1982 after ASWP's departure as the ECBL added 4 new schools, St. Bonnies, URI, St. Joe's and Temple after ASWP left making the "Eastern 8" the "Atlantic10", but it was the same conference - the ECBL (not sure when they formally changed the name to A10, if ever, but pretty sure they never formally changed the name to "Eastern 8" which was just a popular nickname).

 

[BUFFALO LION]

Not really - they considered us a threat to the "strategic direction" of the conference as the Big East was a Basketball-Only Major-College Conference, not an "All-Sport Major-College Conference" like the ACC, SEC, B8, SWC, B2L8 and Pac10 at the time. Three-quarters of the Big East were small, primarily private schools that did not play or have an interest in playing "Major-College Football". Only two of the "Founding Members" of the Big East (founded 1979) were even "Traditional Eastern-Independent Major-College Football Programs" who would have been capable of being a "Founding Member" in an "All-Sport Major-College Eastern Conference" (e.g., Paterno's Desire and Proposal) - BC and SorryExcuse. Far from your characterization, they viewed PSU as the Goliath Northeastern Athletic Program and University that would ultimately squeeze them out of their own conference if they let them in because three-quarters of the founding members of the Big East didn't paly "Major College Football", had no desire to do so and no ability to really persist in a conference that was morphed into a "Major-College All-Sport Conference" based in the Northeast and Middle Atlantic Regions.

Love to get into this with you, but I have to leave for Baltimore in a couple of minutes.

Number one, I never said the Big East in 1981 was an all sports conference. I said it was a basketball oriented conference, which you must have assumed meant "all sports" for some reason.

Number two, Dave Gavitt ran the show. He had just signed a $1.8 million dollar TV rights agreement for the regular season, and had an additional $1 million dollar rights agreement beginning in 1983 with MSG for the Big East Playoffs. He thought Pitt would deliver a larger TV market in the future than Penn State. As you say, the league was 100% basketball oriented.

Gavitt was in a death struggle with Joe for Pitt, BC, and Syracuse. Without getting into all the details, because I don't have the time, Pitt, BC, and Syracuse opted for the Big East money over the future potential of Joe's All Sports Conference.

So screw all three of them.

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

Love to get into this with you, but I have to leave for Baltimore in a couple of minutes.

Number one, I never said the Big East in 1981 was an all sports conference. I said it was a basketball oriented conference, which you must have assumed meant "all sports" for some reason.

Number two, Dave Gavitt ran the show. He had just signed a $1.8 million dollar TV rights agreement for the regular season, and had an additional $1 million dollar rights agreement beginning in 1983 with MSG for the Big East Playoffs. He thought Pitt would deliver a larger TV market in the future than Penn State. As you say, the league was 100% basketball oriented.

Gavitt was in a death struggle with Joe for Pitt, BC, and Syracuse. Without getting into all the details, because I don't have the time, Pitt, BC, and Syracuse opted for the Big East money over the future potential of Joe's All Sports Conference.

So screw all three of them.

Look, you're incorrect, the Big East, which was a confernce for only "Major-College Basketball" at the time viewed PSU and JVP's Proposals as the MAJOR THREAT to the long-term strategic direction of their conference. Not only did they not view PSU as a "farmers college" as you claim, but they viewed PSU as the DIAMETRIC OPPOSITE - the largest Public University in the Northeastern United States with the most powerful "All-Sport Major-College" Athletic Department AND the LARGEST ATHLETIC DEPARTMENT REVENUES in the entire Region many times over again relative to the next closest Northeastern Athletic Department (the Eastern Independents did not "share" revenue and PSU's annual revenues, especially given their Bowl Revenues from "major bowls" virtually annually and the size of PSU's Stadium & average attendance relative to all other N/E programs, blew all other Athletic Department revenues in the Northeast completely away!).

You're just completely full of $hit that the Big East viewed PSU as some Podunk Athletic Department -- quite the opposite is true, they viewed them as easily the most powerful Athletic Department in the Region in terms of revenues and number of sports competed for at the "Major College Level" (especially relative to three-quarters of the Big East's Founding Members which competed in mid-major or smaller NCAA Divisions for all sports other than Men's Basketball) - they viewed PSU as massive University with the biggest "footprint" in the Northeast and Nationally and a behemoth that would take over the strategic direction of the conference as the clear "flagship program", turn it into an "All-Sport Major-College Conference" as JVP had already proposed and squeeze out three-quarters of the founding members of the conference! They didn't want any of this to happen BECAUSE the founders of the Big East, a basketball-only conference, were small schools with SMALL-TIME Athletic Departments, not "All-Sport Major-College" Athletic Departments - your'e "right" except for the fact it's the DIAMETRIC OPPOSITE of what you're claiming!!! LMFAO! You're completely full of $hit that they viewed PSU as a "hayseed", irrelevant Athletic Program - the DIAMETRIC OPPOSITE is true genius!

 

[Hailpitt]

Hey guys. Your recall to Eastern 8, Atlantic 10, Big East hoops is mostly correct. I do not think that PSU & Pitt will ever agree on the reasons Jo Pa's Eastern conference never came to reality. At the time I was hoping he would pull it off. My recall is the sticking point for Pitt was that Jo Pa had no desire to share football revenue (he only wanted to share hoop revenue). Recall (it has been a long time ago), Pitt was a football power back then and was willing to go in on some form of football revenue sharing. Jo pa refused to even consider any football revenue sharing. Too bad--I think it would have been a nice conference.
By the way each of your historical narratives ignores that Jo Pa had PSU quit the Eastern 8 hoops conference (b/t/w was a pretty good hoops league) by leaving a note under the hotel door of the Eastern 8 commissioner). In fact, while promoting his Eastern conference concept, Jo Pa had applied for PSU's admission to the Big East. Jo Pa's lack of transparency did raise "trust issues" at Pitt and Pitt never could bring itself to fully buy into Jo Pa's conference idea. Ultimately, the Big East rejected PSU's application (much to Gavitt's long time regret) and eventually invited Pitt to prevent Cuse and BC from leaving the conference to pursue Jo Pa's vision.
Jo Pa's conference idea showed a lot of foresight and I think would have eventually been lucrative for the eastern schools (imagine all of eastern metro media markets locked up with TV deals for football & hoops), but, unfortunately, he caused enough distrust that Pitt and the other schools were willing to take a chance on it. That is the way we see it!

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

Hey guys. Your recall to Eastern 8, Atlantic 10, Big East hoops is mostly correct. I do not think that PSU & Pitt will ever agree on the reasons Jo Pa's Eastern conference never came to reality. At the time I was hoping he would pull it off. My recall is the sticking point for Pitt was that Jo Pa had no desire to share football revenue (he only wanted to share hoop revenue). Recall (it has been a long time ago), Pitt was a football power back then and was willing to go in on some form of football revenue sharing. Jo pa refused to even consider any football revenue sharing. Too bad--I think it would have been a nice conference.
By the way each of your historical narratives ignores that Jo Pa had PSU quit the Eastern 8 hoops conference (b/t/w was a pretty good hoops league) by leaving a note under the hotel door of the Eastern 8 commissioner). In fact, while promoting his Eastern conference concept, Jo Pa had applied for PSU's admission to the Big East. Jo Pa's lack of transparency did raise "trust issues" at Pitt and Pitt never could bring itself to fully buy into Jo Pa's conference idea. Ultimately, the Big East rejected PSU's application (much to Gavitt's long time regret) and eventually invited Pitt to prevent Cuse and BC from leaving the conference to pursue Jo Pa's vision.
Jo Pa's conference idea showed a lot of foresight and I think would have eventually been lucrative for the eastern schools (imagine all of eastern metro media markets locked up with TV deals for football & hoops), but, unfortunately, he caused enough distrust that Pitt and the other schools were willing to take a chance on it. That is the way we see it!

Uuuummmm, no Big East Founding Members, BC and SorryExcuse, conspired with their other founding Big East partners to bring $hitsburg into the Big East to put a permanent end to JVP's proposal for the "Traditional Eastern Major-College Football Programs" to align together to form an "Eastern Major-College All-Sport Conference" - 6 of the 8 Big East members, IOW the vast majority, were and are "Small School", irrelevant Athletic Departments at the time ASWP was invited to join! The reality is bozo, BC, SorryExcuse and ASWP, backed the wrong LONG-TERM VISION as evidenced by PSU's stability in the b1g generating massive annual revenues compared to all the "non-flagship" Tradition Eastern Independent Major-College Programs that refused to back and work with PSU's, the clear "flagship program" in the NE, Proposal. Instead, these programs who lacked any L/T strategic vision and common sense paid for their shortsightedness by being bounced around from conference to conference while generating annual revenues that are probably a fraction of what could have been achieved if they had worked with PSU and JVP, the FLAGSHIP, largest and largest REVENUE GENERATING Athletic Department by many factors over in the Northeastern U.S. You idiots made your craptasitic, $hithole pig-pen, now you can wallow in it!

 

[NittPicker]

Hey guys. Your recall to Eastern 8, Atlantic 10, Big East hoops is mostly correct. I do not think that PSU & Pitt will ever agree on the reasons Jo Pa's Eastern conference never came to reality. At the time I was hoping he would pull it off. My recall is the sticking point for Pitt was that Jo Pa had no desire to share football revenue (he only wanted to share hoop revenue). Recall (it has been a long time ago), Pitt was a football power back then and was willing to go in on some form of football revenue sharing. Jo pa refused to even consider any football revenue sharing. Too bad--I think it would have been a nice conference.
By the way each of your historical narratives ignores that Jo Pa had PSU quit the Eastern 8 hoops conference (b/t/w was a pretty good hoops league) by leaving a note under the hotel door of the Eastern 8 commissioner). In fact, while promoting his Eastern conference concept, Jo Pa had applied for PSU's admission to the Big East. Jo Pa's lack of transparency did raise "trust issues" at Pitt and Pitt never could bring itself to fully buy into Jo Pa's conference idea. Ultimately, the Big East rejected PSU's application (much to Gavitt's long time regret) and eventually invited Pitt to prevent Cuse and BC from leaving the conference to pursue Jo Pa's vision.
Jo Pa's conference idea showed a lot of foresight and I think would have eventually been lucrative for the eastern schools (imagine all of eastern metro media markets locked up with TV deals for football & hoops), but, unfortunately, he caused enough distrust that Pitt and the other schools were willing to take a chance on it. That is the way we see it!

You see it wrong. Pittsburgh newspaper articles from the mid/late 80s quoted the Pitt AD as saying he didn't want to share football revenue. Any distrust certainly wasn't caused by Joe Paterno. Click the below link. Then Syracuse AD Jake Crouthamel wrote Pitt wanted nothing to do with Penn State simply because they didn't like us. It was a total lack of foresight and being caught up in doing something to screw Penn State instead of doing what would have been best for Pitt in the long run. I think Crouthamel was in better position to offer an opinion than most people on a message board. You Pitt folk keep beating the "Paterno ruined everything" drum hoping if you say it enough people will believe it. At least you've convinced yourselves so you have that going for you. No complaints here about where we stand today.

http://cuse.com/sports/2001/8/8/history.aspx

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

You see it wrong. Pittsburgh newspaper articles from the mid/late 80s quoted the Pitt AD as saying he didn't want to share football revenue. Any distrust certainly wasn't caused by Joe Paterno. Click the below link. Then Syracuse AD Jake Crouthamel wrote Pitt wanted nothing to do with Penn State simply because they didn't like us. It was a total lack of foresight and being caught up in doing something to screw Penn State instead of doing what would have been best for Pitt in the long run. I think Crouthamel was in better position to offer an opinion than most people on a message board. You Pitt folk keep beating the "Paterno ruined everything" drum hoping if you say it enough people will believe it. At least you've convinced yourselves so you have that going for you. No complaints here about where we stand today.

http://cuse.com/sports/2001/8/8/history.aspx

I think it was the opposite, ASWP wanted to share all football revenues (PSU probably accounted for 50% or more of the combined "Traditional Eastern Independent" football programs annual revenues at the time due to the size of Beaver Stadium, average attendance and our bowl payouts all of which dwarfed the other programs including $hitsburgh). However, as I heard it (and I attended PSU from 1981-1985 and had a sibling who attended 1978-1982 and two other siblings that attended from 1976-1980 and 1973-1977 respectively), ASWP wanted all schools to keep their basketball revenues and fully-share the football revenues.

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

I think it was the opposite, ASWP wanted to share all football revenues (PSU probably accounted for 50% or more of the combined "Traditional Eastern Independent" football programs annual revenues at the time due to the size of Beaver Stadium, average attendance and our bowl payouts all of which dwarfed the other programs including $hitsburgh). However, as I heard it (and I attended PSU from 1981-1985 and had a sibling who attended 1978-1982 and two other siblings that attended from 1976-1980 and 1973-1977 respectively), ASWP wanted all schools to keep their basketball revenues and fully-share the football revenues.

Remember, PSU did not have BJC back at this time and played basketball in 5,000 seat Rec Hall.

 

[manatree]

Remember, PSU did not have BJC back at this time and played basketball in 5,000 seat Rec Hall.

Just a reminder, when PSU was denied entry to the Big East in 1982 many of the schools were playing in small gyms on par with Rec Hall.

BC: Roberts Center, UConn: Greer Fieldhouse, Pitt: Fitzgerald Fieldhouse, Seton Hall: Walsh Gymnasium, St. John's: Alumni Hall

While the Palestra, where Nova played at the time, seats around 10,000, no one would call it a modern facility.

Only the Cuse: Carrier Dome, GTown: Capital Center, Providence: Civic Center, played in large, modern arenas in 1982.

 

[btstimpy]

I'll put it another way. Miami, Tallahasee, Atlanta, Clemson, SC, etc are much nicer places to travel to than Columbus, Ann Arbor East Lansing, Bloomington, etc. Especially in November.

They are also great places to showcase a football team in the minds of the local high school football talent in Florida, Georgia, and South Carolina. That would help much better than satellite camping.

And Boston and Pittsburgh are better to travel to as well. Syracuse is about the same.

 

[BUFFALO LION]

Look, you're incorrect, the Big East, which was a confernce for only "Major-College Basketball" at the time viewed PSU and JVP's Proposals as the MAJOR THREAT to the long-term strategic direction of their conference. Not only did they not view PSU as a "farmers college" as you claim, but they viewed PSU as the DIAMETRIC OPPOSITE - the largest Public University in the Northeastern United States with the most powerful "All-Sport Major-College" Athletic Department AND the LARGEST ATHLETIC DEPARTMENT REVENUES in the entire Region many times over again relative to the next closest Northeastern Athletic Department (the Eastern Independents did not "share" revenue and PSU's annual revenues, especially given their Bowl Revenues from "major bowls" virtually annually and the size of PSU's Stadium & average attendance relative to all other N/E programs, blew all other Athletic Department revenues in the Northeast completely away!).

You're just completely full of $hit that the Big East viewed PSU as some Podunk Athletic Department -- quite the opposite is true, they viewed them as easily the most powerful Athletic Department in the Region in terms of revenues and number of sports competed for at the "Major College Level" (especially relative to three-quarters of the Big East's Founding Members which competed in mid-major or smaller NCAA Divisions for all sports other than Men's Basketball) - they viewed PSU as massive University with the biggest "footprint" in the Northeast and Nationally and a behemoth that would take over the strategic direction of the conference as the clear "flagship program", turn it into an "All-Sport Major-College Conference" as JVP had already proposed and squeeze out three-quarters of the founding members of the conference! They didn't want any of this to happen BECAUSE the founders of the Big East, a basketball-only conference, were small schools with SMALL-TIME Athletic Departments, not "All-Sport Major-College" Athletic Departments - your'e "right" except for the fact it's the DIAMETRIC OPPOSITE of what you're claiming!!! LMFAO! You're completely full of $hit that they viewed PSU as a "hayseed", irrelevant Athletic Program - the DIAMETRIC OPPOSITE is true genius!

You must be a joy to live with if you talk anything like you write. Do you ever actually read or listen to what another person writes or says? You do outstanding research, but then when someone makes a point, you run right over it like the person never said it. I swear you didn't read a word I said.

Read my lips. We are talking about, as you say, BASKETBALL!!!!! When I say BASKETBALL oriented, it's because the Big East DID sponsor other sports in 1981 when Joe was trying to form his Conference.

In 1981, when the Big East decided to add a 9th team, Dave Gavitt and the rest of the Big East opted for Pitt over Penn State because they thought Pitt would deliver a larger BASKETBALL television audience. At the time, Pitt had the 11th largest television market in the Country, whereas the thinking concerning Penn State in BASKETBALL was that State College was a small media market with no cred in BASKETBALL.

Gavitt had an additional problem, and that was Joe's All Sports Conference. Neither Syracuse or BC wanted to leave the Big East. They were making too much money. They wanted Joe to form a Football ONLY Conference. Joe wanted an All Sports Conference or nothing. If Syracuse and BC could be lured away, Gavitt's Big East Conference would be greatly weakened.

Joe offered 3 to 5 percent revenue sharing with ONLY Penn State and Pitt sharing revenues initially (since they were the only two programs making any money). Gavitt offered million dollar television contracts. Syracuse, BC, and Pitt went with Gavitt.

After Pitt stuck it to everyone and accepted their bid into the Big East (after telling Joe and the rest of Joe's potential teams they had turned the Big East down), Joe's Conference was dead. That's when, depending on who you talk to, Joe inquired about membership in the Big East. Joe said he never formally applied. Whatever, there was a vote.

Pitt wasn't a voting member yet. Syracuse and BC were afraid that Joe would stop scheduling them after what happened. They got Gavitt on board and lobbied heavily to get us in. But the non D-1 football schools wanted nothing to do with us because of what they perceived as our small BASKETBALL media market and pathetic BASKETBALL cred. We needed 6 of 8 votes to get in. We only got 5 with St. Johns, Georgetown, and Villanova voting against us.

The rest is History.

 

[BUFFALO LION]

Hey guys. Your recall to Eastern 8, Atlantic 10, Big East hoops is mostly correct. I do not think that PSU & Pitt will ever agree on the reasons Jo Pa's Eastern conference never came to reality. At the time I was hoping he would pull it off. My recall is the sticking point for Pitt was that Jo Pa had no desire to share football revenue (he only wanted to share hoop revenue). Recall (it has been a long time ago), Pitt was a football power back then and was willing to go in on some form of football revenue sharing. Jo pa refused to even consider any football revenue sharing. Too bad--I think it would have been a nice conference.
By the way each of your historical narratives ignores that Jo Pa had PSU quit the Eastern 8 hoops conference (b/t/w was a pretty good hoops league) by leaving a note under the hotel door of the Eastern 8 commissioner). In fact, while promoting his Eastern conference concept, Jo Pa had applied for PSU's admission to the Big East. Jo Pa's lack of transparency did raise "trust issues" at Pitt and Pitt never could bring itself to fully buy into Jo Pa's conference idea. Ultimately, the Big East rejected PSU's application (much to Gavitt's long time regret) and eventually invited Pitt to prevent Cuse and BC from leaving the conference to pursue Jo Pa's vision.
Jo Pa's conference idea showed a lot of foresight and I think would have eventually been lucrative for the eastern schools (imagine all of eastern metro media markets locked up with TV deals for football & hoops), but, unfortunately, he caused enough distrust that Pitt and the other schools were willing to take a chance on it. That is the way we see it!

You have it wrong about the revenue sharing. Joe was willing to go with a 3 to 5 percent revenue share. But he needed Pitt to do the same since those were the only two profitable big time Eastern athletic programs at the time. Pitt led Joe and everyone else in Joe's potential Conference to believe they had turned the Big east down. Then, out of the clear blue sky on Wednesday, November 18, 1981, Pitt shocked everyone by saying they had accepted a bid to the Big East.

You guys have no one else but yourselves to blame for going after the quick buck over long term financial stability.

 

[Eurotrash1]

I was listening to college football conversation on Sirius the other day. Sounds like the ACC/ESPN network will be happening soon. It also sounds like it will be far less money for them than what the B1G and SEC are getting.