Agreed. As I've been trying to say, I think it's a bad idea for untrained citizens to be running around public armed. But I'm also trying to keep facts straight as well (even when it looks like I'm on the other side of the debate).
Thousand Oaks shooting: At least 12 killed after gunman opens fire in California bar
- Thread starter Nitt1300
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Agreed. As I've been trying to say, I think it's a bad idea for untrained citizens to be running around public armed. But I'm also trying to keep facts straight as well (even when it looks like I'm on the other side of the debate).
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anon_xdc8rmuek44eq
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Watch this video of an active shooter at Walmart from a few years back. The civilian defender did what some have suggested on this thread - fired at the ceiling, followed the perp, and ultimately was shot and killed by a second shooter. Not saying every scenario will go down like this, but kind of what I'm referring to with arming civilians as a way to prevent shootings.
It depends is the answer. You need to know the specifics. Response time where I live is measured in minutes, as in maybe up to 45. In that case the incident is over. If you shoot the shooter, I would secure my weapon and render first aid to those in need, possibly the shooter, again it depends. I don't carry it on me, but I have four tourniquets and a great first aid kit in my truck.
There is no set answer because each situation is different.
Shooting at the ceiling is just stupid. Shoot the bad guy, then check for others. Quickly. Again, every situation is different.
They police are probably at best 3 minutes out. If an armed citizen and an active shooter get involved in a firefight, it is going to be over long before the police get there.
The last thing I'd be worried about if I ever choose to draw my gun in an active shooter scenario is getting killed by the police.
Not under current law in any state I'm familiar with.
Or was your question directly at me asking my opinion? Full disclosure, I'm a veteran of the US Army. I own 9 firearms including an AR 15 and the Glock 21 used in this shooting. I have lots of training.
I absolutely think everyone purchasing a firearm should have had training on that type of firearm (shotgun, rifle, handgun at minimum).
Can you buy a car without a license? I know I always show my license and insurance card when I buy a car, but I'm not actually sure why (I know for insurance, but not the license).
not at all.
There are ways to show you're the good guy. Do they have a description of the shooter? Are they arriving during the shooting ( seldom happens), or after? In the aftermath are you waving a gun around or possibly rendering first aid to those wounded with a holstered gun. In my hometown area response time can be over 45 minutes, so getting shot by the cops isn't my worry. the shooting is long over by then.
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anon_xdc8rmuek44eq
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Also, of note, is concealed carry. Many states require certification for concealed carry. so, you can buy a gun, you just can't carry it unless you are certified. But it is all over the place as each state has their own laws and terms.
You are more than within your rights to carry it unconcealed on your hip walking down a public sidewalk though. Not the best idea ever, but still legal (in PA at least).
In most states if you are buying cash you can buy without a drivers license. You wouldn't be able to finance without one as its usually a requirement from the bank.
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anon_xdc8rmuek44eq
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No.
Despite the Walmart video posted above, that doesn't happen very often.
If I'm at Walmart and I hear shots, I'm going the opposite way towards the exit. I'm not going hunting for the gunman.
As a police officer and trained in active shooter training and who trains officers in responding to active shooters, there are so many variables here. The Sgt. did do time in SWAT , so one would assume that his level of training in tactics would be higher then a regular street officer. Going through the front door , because we train our cops to get inside quickly and get to the threat, that sometimes we can't utilize tactics because of time. From what I have read it almost sounded as if entering through the front may have caused a fatal funnel depending on how the room opened up when you make entry. Statistics show that in an active shooter the hit ratio to bullets fired by a suspect is 1:1. Statistics also show that a large majority of active shooter incidents require an act of force to end it, either by the police or public.
Show some respect for the man, you calling him a classroom sheriff , when you have no idea of the level of his training
Show some respect for the man, you calling him a classroom sheriff , when you have no idea of the level of his training
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Usually that's not an issue. You try to shoot the bad guy which means a clear shot at the target. If I don't have one, I'm getting out of there. My obligation is to my family. I'm no untrained protective security for everyone else. First thing I do is secure my self and my people. I only engage if it's the best option. Like they're in my way to exit or i have to engage.
@psuro
another quick thought...we've always had these nuts like the kid that killed John Lennon and the one that shot Reagan because he wanted to impress a movie star. I think, in my mind, Columbine was the change. From there, we've got these copy cat mass killers. Not sure what changed but Columbine blazed a new trail of crap.
another quick thought...we've always had these nuts like the kid that killed John Lennon and the one that shot Reagan because he wanted to impress a movie star. I think, in my mind, Columbine was the change. From there, we've got these copy cat mass killers. Not sure what changed but Columbine blazed a new trail of crap.
Apparently, that girl walked all the way down College Ave carrying that rifle from somewhere out on W.College. The rifle was out in plain site and no one confronted her about it. Learned about this in a training class I had in the early 2000s
She also had a history of problems: https://www.centredaily.com/news/local/education/penn-state/article102157377.html
A friend of mine is a military/police trainer. He has a security business. His wife and a friend were on the Quad that day at the time of the shooting. They heard gunfire and hit the deck. When her and her girlfriend got home one of them had a bullet hole through their backpack. Missed by inches.
I may be wrong, but I seem to remember it was drizzling rain that day and she concealed it with a trenchcoat. She actually walked into a store with it under her coat and bought a newspaper. She sat on a bench overlooking the Hub lawn reading the paper until students made their way to class. Also, she laid out a tarp so that she didn't get wet while laying in the prone position.
I may not be totally correct on all of this, but followed closely because it was big part of my life at the time.
I agree with you completely. In fact Malcolm Gladwell made this exact supposition in an article not to long ago.
One thing that i think is brought up in this conversation is that in terms of firearms, the military mission is combat oriented and varies from the law enforcement's mission, which is to protect the public. I don't think it does justice to either to think they're interchangeable skills. It's like saying a can driver and a NASCAR driver have the same driving skills.
https://www.newyorker.com/podcast/p...gladwell-on-understanding-school-shooters/amphuh....me and Malcolm..like this.
So, it appears this guy was bullied in high school (had a lazy eye). Apparently some of his old HS classmates frequent this bar on Wednesdays. So you've got an unstable guy, trained by the Marines as a machine-gunner, suffering from PSTDs, who got used to killing in AF, with a Glock and a mind for revenge.
Doesn't look like politics, religion or race played a part. Just a guy that wanted to take out as many as he could in the name of revenge before ending his own life.
Doesn't look like politics, religion or race played a part. Just a guy that wanted to take out as many as he could in the name of revenge before ending his own life.
According to the article I posted, he was cleared of mental health issues. The bar was having a College Night, for local college kids, and this guy was 28 - as were his HS classmates - way too old for college age kids. If it was College Night, it may even mean that they limited everyone to 21 and under with a college ID.
Sweet jeebus, if every person that got bullied in HS went after their HS classmates, there would not be a lot of people walking around the United States of America.
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anon_xdc8rmuek44eq
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I thought I read that he drove his mother's car to the bar - did he live at home with her? Any idea what the disposition of his discharge was?
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anon_xdc8rmuek44eq
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yeah...wasn't meant as an excuse for shooting people....just reporting...I report, you decide.
Point is, this was a lone gunman with an agenda. A guy with PTSD who was a trained shooter and had experience shooting people. He may have gone looking for that one guy/gal and knowing that murder would lead to the end of him, decided to go out in a blaze. My wife calls it "suicide by cop". Cops talk about it all the time, people that set up situations where a cop kills them so they don't have to kill themselves.
Regardless, not a Jihadist or anyone from any particular political persuasion. Not an antisemite. Just some dude that was nuts and the psych profession didn't catch (surely, an inexact science).
Depends upon the state. The laws are very different depending upon where you live. And it depends upon what kind of firearm you are buying and what you are going to use it for.
For example, concealed carry in most states requires taking a handgun course, generally the one the NRA teaches and in Ct. if you want to buy a handgun you literally have to have a concealed carry license to do so. It is four hours of class in the morning and four hours at the range in the afternoon. That is how the course is given in Florida and Ct., my home state, has a similar requirement. Once the course requirement is satisfied you then go to a government office and apply for your state permit and pay the fee. In Florida that was a simple exercise taking less than a half hour. In Ct. the process requires getting a town permit first from the mayor or the police chief. The local police do the state and federal background check. Then you go to a state office to apply for a state-wide permit that is only good in Ct. The total Ct. process can take up to four months though a state law says it can take no longer than 8 weeks. Ct. has no reciprocal agreements with other states. Florida does with 37 other states. In NJ concealed carry is an "as needed" process. You have to justify why you want to carry concealed.
If you want to go hunting then you first have to pass a Hunter Safety Course for either gun hunting or bow hunting in many states especially in the northeast. Most states will honor a hunter safety course certificate from another state. This is usually four hours of course work in the morning and then a few more hours at the range shooting. The bow course I took required an accuracy component to insure you could hit what you were shooting at. If not, you failed. Interestingly, they announce this requirement again at the beginning of the morning session and usually about a quarter of the class gets up and leaves.
So the gun training is to hunt, not necessarily to buy a shotgun or rifle. To buy either in Ct. requires taking a gun safety course and then you petition the state to get a Long Gun Certificate which allows you to buy either a shotgun or rifle. The process to get the Long Gun Certificate requires picture ID, finger-printing and background checks. There is even another Certificate to buy ammo. So some states require training even to just buy a gun.
So, why doesn't a Ct. citizen just go across the border to another state with easier gun purchase laws? Because there is a Federal law that says that when a citizen buys a gun anywhere in the U.S. from a licensed gun dealer (one holding a Federal Firearms License, like Cabela's or your local gun shop) if that seller is in a different state from the state in which the buyer is domiciled, then that gun must be shipped by the selling FFL to a receiving FFL in the buyers home state. So if I buy any gun in Florida when I am there in the winter from an FFL shop they have to send it to an FFL in Ct. and I can get it when I return home in the spring. But I have to conform to Ct. laws and have the correct purchase Certificate, either a Concealed Carry license or a Long Gun Certificate depending upon what I bought in Florida. Generally, if you have a Concealed Carry License you can buy any kind of legal gun and ammo so in Ct. we have thousands of citizens with CCLs but don't even own a handgun and will never actually do concealed carry.
So this was an easy question which most people probably have thought about at some point but the answer is terribly complicated with 50 different answers depending upon what state you live in and where you are buying the gun. And we are only discussing purchases of guns from an FFL and have not even scratched the issue of private sales, which are also regulated in Ct. requiring a Ct. state resale certificate but Ct. is probably the only state that has this kind of control over the used gun/private sale market.
The bottom line is the vast majority of the U.S. population has very little knowledge about the existing gun laws in the U.S. The continuous call is for more "common sense" gun laws but many of those are in place already.
Do you find it at least slightly disturbing that I bought my AR-15 without a background check? It's considered a long gun, which does not require a background check when purchased in a private sale (regular citizen selling it to a regular citizen).
Even if the mental health system was flagging people properly, how would that impact a legal private sale such as I described?
Yes I do, but unless and until we enforce the laws we already have, what good will passing new laws do? Don't take me for an NRA follower- they are part of the problem, too.
