Thousand Oaks shooting: At least 12 killed after gunman opens fire in California bar

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

Do you find it at least slightly disturbing that I bought my AR-15 without a background check? It's considered a long gun, which does not require a background check when purchased in a private sale (regular citizen selling it to a regular citizen).

Even if the mental health system was flagging people properly, how would that impact a legal private sale such as I described?

Are private sales catalogued or tracked at all? Is there a state/or national firearm registry? I would like to see something like that if it didn't exist, but only for certain firearms. You have to renew car inspections each year - maybe require something similar but not as onerous as sitting at some place with all your firearms waiting to have them checked....spitballing here.

 

[PSUcup1]

Yes I do, but unless and until we enforce the laws we already have, what good will passing new laws do? Don't take me for an NRA follower- they are part of the problem, too.

This. My brother in law is friends with an ATF agent. I asked him his thoughts on the whole gun control issue.

He said basically the same thing, that until we actually start enforcing current laws....passinng new ones will do little to nothing

 

[PSU87]

Are private sales catalogued or tracked at all? Is there a state/or national firearm registry? I would like to see something like that if it didn't exist, but only for certain firearms. You have to renew car inspections each year - maybe require something similar but not as onerous as sitting at some place with all your firearms waiting to have them checked....spitballing here.

Varies by state. In some states, private sales are completely off the books. In some states, only handguns require checks, in some states all guns require checks.

 

[Obliviax]

This. My brother in law is friends with an ATF agent. I asked him his thoughts on the whole gun control issue.

He said basically the same thing, that until we actually start enforcing current laws....passinng new ones will do little to nothing

yep....it appears this most recent shooter would have passed any background checks. At VT, laws were missed as was the shooting at the FL high school. At Sandy Hook, the guns were the mother's, who the kid killed before going to Sandy Hook (IIRC). Columbine...etc.

I believe there needs to be a national database and strict rules governing the control of guns. the problem is, guns are so readily available it won't help much. In addition, bad guys don't follow the rules, so they'll always find a black market to get what they need. Will it help? Yes, a bit. Will it help a lot? No.

 

[WDLion]

Are private sales catalogued or tracked at all? Is there a state/or national firearm registry? I would like to see something like that if it didn't exist, but only for certain firearms. You have to renew car inspections each year - maybe require something similar but not as onerous as sitting at some place with all your firearms waiting to have them checked....spitballing here.

Pretty sure that in Pa at estate sales the highest bidder leaves with the gun.

 

[Nitt1300]

Pretty sure that in Pa at estate sales the highest bidder leaves with the gun.

PA is pretty lax, there isn't any real consistency from state to state

 

[PSU87]

Pretty sure that in Pa at estate sales the highest bidder leaves with the gun.

No longer a PA resident, but pretty sure handguns in PA have to go through FFL. Maybe for estate sales they have one on site.

 

[WDLion]

No longer a PA resident, but pretty sure handguns in PA have to go through FFL. Maybe for estate sales they have one on site.

Not sure about hand guns and i don't go to estate sales but i have friends that buy rifles at sales.

 

[Obliviax]

Pretty sure that in Pa at estate sales the highest bidder leaves with the gun.

In CLE you can go down to west 117th and get a handgun with the serial number removed for a strait cash deal...no questions.

 

[psuro]

In CLE you can go down to west 117th and get a handgun with the serial number removed for a strait cash deal...no questions.

Not even "Would you like a gift receipt with that?"

 

[MJG-90]

Are private sales catalogued or tracked at all?

Not in PA. I handed my father in law cash and he handed me the gun. A few years prior, he bought it from another person in a similar fashion. The serial number, according to any state records, shows the gun belongs to someone else.

I believe there needs to be a national database and strict rules governing the control of guns.

The first part of this is a really bad idea. Unless you can figure out a way to eliminate 99.999999999% of data entry errors, this would create more problems than it's worth.

I'm all for stricter control of guns. There are plenty of ways to make things more safe without having a national registry. Besides, the NRA would start a civil war before they'd allow that to happen.

 

[Obliviax]

Not even "Would you like a gift receipt with that?"

No! I get the feeling it is "buyer beware" and "no returns". Cash and carry. No refunds. Very customer unfriendly.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

Not in PA. I handed my father in law cash and he handed me the gun. A few years prior, he bought it from another person in a similar fashion. The serial number, according to any state records, shows the gun belongs to someone else.



The first part of this is a really bad idea. Unless you can figure out a way to eliminate 99.999999999% of data entry errors, this would create more problems than it's worth.

I'm all for stricter control of guns. There are plenty of ways to make things more safe without having a national registry. Besides, the NRA would start a civil war before they'd allow that to happen.

Soon, the NRA won’t matter.

 

[MJG-90]

Soon, the NRA won’t matter.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. They are a force. If they go away, something else (maybe more powerful) will take its place.

 

[PSU87]

Not in PA. I handed my father in law cash and he handed me the gun. A few years prior, he bought it from another person in a similar fashion. The serial number, according to any state records, shows the gun belongs to someone else.



The first part of this is a really bad idea. Unless you can figure out a way to eliminate 99.999999999% of data entry errors, this would create more problems than it's worth.

I'm all for stricter control of guns. There are plenty of ways to make things more safe without having a national registry. Besides, the NRA would start a civil war before they'd allow that to happen.

Just went and read the actual PA law.
Long guns between private individuals- no ffl required.
Hand gun transfers between private individuals- ffl required EXCEPT between certain relatives, including father and son.

So if you bought a gun from your dad without an ffl you are legal. From your neighbor.... you're a felon. Your dad broke the law buying it if it was a handgun.
Same with estate sale. Unless related to the deceased, you aren't walking away from a PA estate sale with a handgun legally without the ffl.

 

[MJG-90]

Just went and read the actual PA law.
Long guns between private individuals- no ffl required.
Hand gun transfers between private individuals- ffl required EXCEPT between certain relatives, including father and son.

So if you bought a gun from your dad without an ffl you are legal. From your neighbor.... you're a felon. Your dad broke the law buying it if it was a handgun.
Same with estate sale. Unless related to the deceased, you aren't walking away from a PA estate sale with a handgun legally without the ffl.

An AR-15 is a long gun. So it doesn't matter.

 

[PSU87]

An AR-15 is a long gun. So it doesn't matter.

Your post said "gun". So if AR, then yes, perfectly legal.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

I wouldn't be so sure about that. They are a force. If they go away, something else (maybe more powerful) will take its place.

Not overnight - but, it’ll happen. Tobacco had a good run too.

 

[WDLion]

In CLE you can go down to west 117th and get a handgun with the serial number removed for a strait cash deal...no questions.

Last rifle i bought, five years ago, i walked into Dicks, filled out a form, paid for it and left with the gun. Lycoming Mall Dicks.

 

[LionJim]

Soon, the NRA won’t matter.

Money always matters.

 

[PSU87]

Last rifle i bought, five years ago, i walked into Dicks, filled out a form, paid for it and left with the gun. Lycoming Mall Dicks.

If you bought it at Dicks, you got background checked.

 

[WDLion]

If you bought it at Dicks, you got background checked.

That's possible. Sure didn't take long. No wait.

 

[PSU87]

That's possible. Sure didn't take long. No wait.

WD, I'm telling you, it's more than possible. It's the law, and there's no way a retailer like Dicks would not do it.
The form was the ATF form. You might not have seen them do it, but they called the number, gave your name and social. It can take seconds, depending on how busy the store and the hotline are, but I've had it take an hour.
Dealers MUST do the background check. Individual sellers, depending on State and type of firearm, maybe not.

 

[Obliviax]

WD, I'm telling you, it's more than possible. It's the law, and there's no way a retailer like Dicks would not do it.
The form was the ATF form. You might not have seen them do it, but they called the number, gave your name and social. It can take seconds, depending on how busy the store and the hotline are, but I've had it take an hour.
Dealers MUST do the background check. Individual sellers, depending on State and type of firearm, maybe not.

background checks are getting very sophisticated quickly. If you give up your drivers license or SSN, there are systems that can do a complete background check in seconds. My wife uses a service to do background checks on clients and renters. She gets income, taxes, late filings, divorces, CC's, liens, credit rating the whole nine yards. It is a public service she pays a small monthly fee for. She then goes into LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. Its pretty scary, really.

 

[psuro]

Seems like the appropriate time and place for a little poignant comedic relief...

 

[MJG-90]

Your post said "gun". So if AR, then yes, perfectly legal.

You’re correct. My story goes back a couple posts. I should have kept the details in each subsequent post.

 

[Ct. Lion]

Are private sales catalogued or tracked at all? Is there a state/or national firearm registry? I would like to see something like that if it didn't exist, but only for certain firearms. You have to renew car inspections each year - maybe require something similar but not as onerous as sitting at some place with all your firearms waiting to have them checked....spitballing here.

Nothing evokes more argument than the issue of firearms registry. It has been part of every gun control debate since the airing of the TV show "The Guns of Autumn" back in the mid-70s.
The basic argument is that a national gun registry is not constitutional because the 2nd Amendment guarantees "the right to keep and bear arms" and that it will not be "infringed" and that it is an "individual right" of the People. The offsetting argument is that the 2nd Amendment is not an individual right but a collective right that accrues to the states for their National Guard units. This is also true that the states have the right to have a "well regulated militia". The Supreme Court in the Heller case upheld the 2nd Amendment as an individual right. There has never been a debate about a state's right to have a well regulated militia. The difference between registering guns versus registering cars/drivers license is that guns are Constitutionally protected whereas cars and driving are a privilege.

So national firearms registry have always been rejected at the Federal level. They do keep records on all background checks for gun purchases but there is a drop dead timeline on how long these records can be held. I think it is something like 60 days and then the file is purged.

States are a different issue and it depends upon whether it is a long gun or a handgun. Some like Ct. require private sales to get a permit for any firearm transaction and I am sure they keep a file on this. Ct. also keeps a registry of all firearms sales involving an FFL and requires a state background check in addition to the Federal background check. Some states require an FFL to get involved especially with handguns. Depends upon the state.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

Nothing evokes more argument than the issue of firearms registry. It has been part of every gun control debate since the airing of the TV show "The Guns of Autumn" back in the mid-70s.
The basic argument is that a national gun registry is not constitutional because the 2nd Amendment guarantees "the right to keep and bear arms" and that it will not be "infringed" and that it is an "individual right" of the People. The offsetting argument is that the 2nd Amendment is not an individual right but a collective right that accrues to the states for their National Guard units. This is also true that the states have the right to have a "well regulated militia". The Supreme Court in the Heller case upheld the 2nd Amendment as an individual right. There has never been a debate about a state's right to have a well regulated militia. The difference between registering guns versus registering cars/drivers license is that guns are Constitutionally protected whereas cars and driving are a privilege.

So national firearms registry have always been rejected at the Federal level. They do keep records on all background checks for gun purchases but there is a drop dead timeline on how long these records can be held. I think it is something like 60 days and then the file is purged.

States are a different issue and it depends upon whether it is a long gun or a handgun. Some like Ct. require private sales to get a permit for any firearm transaction and I am sure they keep a file on this. Ct. also keeps a registry of all firearms sales involving an FFL and requires a state background check in addition to the Federal background check. Some states require an FFL to get involved especially with handguns. Depends upon the state.

Can I ask how a registry infringes on anyone's right to own a firearm?

Additionally - thanks for the great comments/explanations; really appreciated!

 

[Ct. Lion]

Can I ask how a registry infringes on anyone's right to own a firearm?

Additionally - thanks for the great comments/explanations; really appreciated!

There is actually a Federal law against implementing a gun registry. The fear is if the government knows where every gun is located it then becomes easy to go and confiscate them. On the other hand, a registry does not infringe on anyone's right to own a firearm. The government just wants to know who owns them and where they are.
The practicality of actually confiscating all of the privately owned weapons in America is remote. This would make Waco look like a kid's birthday party.
We actually had this situation in Ct. after the Sandy Hook disaster. New gun laws banned "assault weapons" which were semi automatic guns that looked like military weapons (military weapons have fully automatic firing capability). The media was calling for the state to go and confiscate all of the semi automatic weapons that look like M16 assault rifles. The legislature banned their sale but grand-fathered those in private hands though they had to be registered. Some 10,000 or so were registered out of a known inventory that was much larger than that. The media and many political figures called for the state police to go and forcefully confiscate those unregistered weapons. After some consultation with various groups the state police issued a public statement that they had no interest or intent to go and confiscate anyone's weapon at any time day or night. That ended the issue and it stands the same today though those unregistered M16 look-a-like weapons are still illegal.
Anyway, the idea of a registry is still a hot topic. Below is a link to five Pro and Con ideas around the registry question.
https://www.bustle.com/p/5-national-gun-registry-pros-cons-show-why-the-debate-is-so-thorny-9242571

 

[wbcincy]

Can I ask how a registry infringes on anyone's right to own a firearm?

Additionally - thanks for the great comments/explanations; really appreciated!

In and of itself it does not, but around the world we've seen examples where a gun registry inevitably leads to a gun confiscation. Do you really doubt that if we had a gun registry, there wouldn't eventually be a call to confiscate? Not all guns of course, it would start with just the most extreme guns, but of course it would slowly creep its way down to more "normal" guns over time.

There's just no doubt in my mind that any inch on gun control that is given to the left will result in nothing more than a demand for another inch. It would never stop until no law-abiding citizen had guns anymore. It's the same reason that (many) democrats fight any abortion restrictions, even if most of them would agree certain situations are horrible.

It's like our discussion on compromise. Except it's not really a compromise, its just giving ground one direction. It's like if Rutgers realizes there's a concern Penn State will get 30 yards on 1st down, so they agree to just give us 5 yards. Except now its just 2nd down, Penn State isn't quitting, and they face the same dilemma again. If they just "compromise" over and over, eventually there's nothing left to give.

 

[81b&w]

background checks are getting very sophisticated quickly. If you give up your drivers license or SSN, there are systems that can do a complete background check in seconds. My wife uses a service to do background checks on clients and renters. She gets income, taxes, late filings, divorces, CC's, liens, credit rating the whole nine yards. It is a public service she pays a small monthly fee for. She then goes into LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. Its pretty scary, really.

How do you keep a mistress?

 

[psuro]

I saw this article this morning and it reminded me of this topic....

On one of the threads, someone suggested having a shoot out with the perpetrator and then letting the police sort it out.....

This is what happens

https://www.yahoo.com/news/black-security-guard-detained-gunman-170407573.html

 

[LionJim]

I saw this article this morning and it reminded me of this topic....

On one of the threads, someone suggested having a shoot out with the perpetrator and then letting the police sort it out.....

This is what happens

https://www.yahoo.com/news/black-security-guard-detained-gunman-170407573.html

Yeah. Tragic. Guy was just doing his job.

 

[81b&w]

Question about the police officer that was first in and shot and killed... was he not wearing a protective vest?

 

[Nitt1300]

Yeah. Tragic. Guy was just doing his job.

very risky, he was doing his job while black

 

[fizzyskittles]

Question about the police officer that was first in and shot and killed... was he not wearing a protective vest?

He was not a police officer. He was a security guard and allegedly had the guy down on his stomach with a gun to his head.
It sucks but cops shoot cops. When confronted by the police you need to comply . And do it very carefully. There are multiple things that can make things go south. They’re dicey situations.

 

[LionJim]

He was not a police officer. He was a security guard and allegedly had the guy down on his stomach with a gun to his head.
It sucks but cops shoot cops. When confronted by the police you need to comply . And do it very carefully. There are multiple things that can make things go south. They’re dicey situations.

I think 81b&w was referring to the Thousand Oaks shooting, not the shooting of the security guard.

 

[81b&w]

I think 81b&w was referring to the Thousand Oaks shooting, not the shooting of the security guard.

yes, I was referring to the Thousand Oaks, Thanks Jim

 

[fizzyskittles]

yes, I was referring to the Thousand Oaks, Thanks Jim

Gotcha. Fwiw, you can do everything right and still die in a gunfight. Bad guy gets the drop on you, he hits, you miss etc.

 

[fizzyskittles]

Update, I’ve heard reports that the responding officers told the security guard multiple times to drop the gun. Unfortunately when people are adrenalized they don’t always respond quickly . Also, some knows they’re the “good” guy so they don’t respond to the commands for various reasons. They’ll try to talk their way out of it, think the police aren’t talking to them etc.
That’s how good guys get shot, security, private citizens undercover officers.