Thousand Oaks shooting: At least 12 killed after gunman opens fire in California bar

[PS4814]

Not to mention there are studies that show an armed amatuer is much more likely to shoot an innocent person than a threat.

This is what I'm getting at - nothing against the first-responders on the scene - but more so the argument that comes up every time there's a mass shooting that if everyone was armed they would stop the killer. In a chaotic situation even if carrying the likelihood reacting fast enough to prevent more tragedy is very low.

 

[November Dixon]

You'd probably lose that bet. From the Sargents Linkedin profile.

I am a twenty-eight year veteran of the Ventura County Sheriff's Office. I am an FBI certified firearms instructor and a POST (Peace Officer's Standards and Training) instructor. I have thousands of hours of specialized training. I work or have worked, the following assignments: Custody; patrol (Deputy, Senior Deputy, Sergeant); SWAT; all aspects of firearms, less lethal, and chemical agents instruction; investigations; narcotics; and wellness advisor. I own and operate Gun Control: Firearms Training and CCW Instruction. I have a Master's degree from the University of Oklahoma and plan to pursue my doctorate degree in the near future.

Not really.. don’t care how many classrooms, training seminars and instructional videos he has watched.. I’ll take a Highly Trained Battle tested Marine over a Classroom Shefiff anytime

 

[Talpsu]

current reporting...

The gunman who massacred 12 people at a country music bar in southern California on Wednesday night has been identified as an ex-Marine.

Ian Long, 29, opened fire on the Borderline Bar and Grill in Thousand Oaks at 11.20pm. Long had been cleared by mental health experts after an incident in his home in April, sheriffs revealed on Thursday morning.

He killed 11 people inside the bar and one of the first cops on the scene before taking his own life.

Survivors from the shooting said he looked 'like he knew what he was doing' as he repeatedly fired his legally purchased Glock .45 handgun.

As dozens ran for their lives, hid beneath pool tables and used bar stools to shatter the windows to escape, Long continued firing and also threw smoke grenades to confuse the crowds.

When the first police officers arrived at the scene three minutes later, Long shot one of them multiple times before shooting himself.
​

so the guy was a 29 year old ex-marine that was cleared April after "an incident". And he shot up a club that has a standing night for college kids who commit to not drink and is highly attended by Perperdine and CA Lutheran U.

So no AR?

 

[WDLion]

So no AR?

Luckily.

 

[Obliviax]

So no AR?

Not that is being reported. And that is one of the problems: how do you legally classify weapons as being "assault" and "semi or fully automatic". The clip he had was, reportedly, illegal. It was extended beyond what was legal. So, again, no magic formula. Perhaps lives were saved that he didn't have an AR or similar.

 

[November Dixon]

Luckily.

False.. Handgun was the shooters deadliest choice .. both are semi..

Please try something new WDlion

 

[rumble_lion]

yep- followed by the usual "thoughts and prayers", a couple of days of handwringing, and then a quick fade out until the next one

Well there are gun industry profits to be concerned with.

 

[rumble_lion]

There was a study done, not to long ago, about how "accuracy" when shooting at a target plummets when someone is shooting back at you.
So yea they may be as "proficient" on the target range but its a completely different story when someone starts firing back at you.
My biggest question, whenever someone brings up the, "This wouldn't happen if everyone would carry" argument is. When the police or arrive how do they know who the bad guy is or the good guys are if everyone is firing at one another?

Easy, when the police show up they just shoot everyone that has a gun and sort it all out later at the hospital.

 

[BobPSU92]

False.. Handgun was the shooters deadliest choice .. both are semi..

Please try something new WDlion

So you obviously signed up today to discuss FOOTBALL. above all.

Joined today. Three posts, all on this topic. Hmm...

 

[rumble_lion]

That's a situation that begs to be ugly. One shooter comes in and fires a shot. Now an armed citizen pulls his gun to shoot the original shooter. Next another armed guy fires at citizen one. Etc. Then the cops show up and have no clue what the heck happened. It's a really bad idea to have untrained people carrying in public.

You forgot to add in the smoke bombs.

 

[PearlSUJam]

I was at Sparks when it happened.

It was an eerie feeling walking to class every day looking at the flowers and memorial and still hearing those gunshots in my head.

 

[WDLion]

False.. Handgun was the shooters deadliest choice .. both are semi..

Please try something new WDlion

Hand gun with a 10 round clip. AR with a 30 round clip. Don't be stupid.

 

[michnittlion]

Americans must have their guns. We know there is no shortage of good, strong, sensitive, talented men and women; we can afford to kill them. Our guns are signs of our freedom.

 

[psuro]

my brother has an interesting theory on this. if you have a gun, all you have to do is shoot it into the air in one of these situations. This will get the perp to hesitate, take cover and, perhaps, take his own life (like in this case). You don't have to kill the guy, just slow him down.

Or not. It may make someone else with a gun react to you, rather than the perp and end up killing you. You shoot a gun in the air, and you are announcing your whereabouts and that you are armed - and now you become a target for someone else with a gun.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

It was an eerie feeling walking to class every day looking at the flowers and memorial and still hearing those gunshots in my head.

Yup.

 

[Obliviax]

Or not. It may make someone else with a gun react to you, rather than the perp and end up killing you. You shoot a gun in the air, and you are announcing your whereabouts and that you are armed - and now you become a target for someone else with a gun.

Agree....but I have a philosophy: Always attack, try to never defend. I believe I am morally sound and never cheat anyone, but if anyone wrongs me, God help them because I come back ten fold. I made the decision a long time ago that I wasn't ever going to be a rabbit in a hole waiting for my ultimate fate. Philosophically, if I am going to get shot at a public event, I'd rather do so with a gun in my hand rather than be in a fetal position begging for mercy.

 

[psuro]

Agree....but I have a philosophy: Always attack, try to never defend. I believe I am morally sound and never cheat anyone, but if anyone wrongs me, God help them because I come back ten fold. I made the decision a long time ago that I wasn't ever going to be a rabbit in a hole waiting for my ultimate fate. Philosophically, if I am going to get shot at a public event, I'd rather do so with a gun in my hand rather than be in a fetal position begging for mercy.

And you will get shot and killed by someone who feels you are a threat to them.

It's a never ending cycle.

 

[rumble_lion]

Or not. It may make someone else with a gun react to you, rather than the perp and end up killing you. You shoot a gun in the air, and you are announcing your whereabouts and that you are armed - and now you become a target for someone else with a gun.

You shoot a gun in the air, and you are announcing your whereabouts and that you are armed - and now you become a target for someone else with a gun.

Hmm, maybe we do a solution to this problem after all.

 

[MJG-90]

Hand gun with a 10 round clip. AR with a 30 round clip. Don't be stupid.

The gunman used an extended magazine per reports. They make a 26 round magazine for the Glock 21 (.45 caliber). You can buy it legally online. I'm guessing it's illegal in California though. So who are you calling stupid?

Also, the Glock 21 has a 13 round magazine that is not considered "extended" as it fits within the hand grip.

 

[Cletus11]

The gunman used an extended magazine per reports. They make a 26 round magazine for the Glock 21 (.45 caliber). You can buy it legally online. I'm guessing it's illegal in California though. So who are you calling stupid?

Also, the Glock 21 has a 13 round magazine that is not considered "extended" as it fits within the hand grip.

i get that, but for a trained marine, how hard is it to pull out a magazine clip and put in a new one. so even if he did not have an extended magazine, he just reloads. I doubt anyboyd in the 15-20 seconds it would take him to reload would have been able to do much in teh chaos

 

[rumble_lion]

The gunman used an extended magazine per reports. They make a 26 round magazine for the Glock 21 (.45 caliber). You can buy it legally online. I'm guessing it's illegal in California though. So who are you calling stupid?

Also, the Glock 21 has a 13 round magazine that is not considered "extended" as it fits within the hand grip.

This is crazy:

One survivor said he and his friends also escaped death last year in the deadliest US mass shooting of modern times, when a gunman killed 58 people at a Las Vegas country music concert.

Nicholas Champion told CBS News: "We're all a big family and unfortunately this family got hit twice."​

 

[MJG-90]

i get that, but for a trained marine, how hard is it to pull out a magazine clip and put in a new one. so even if he did not have an extended magazine, he just reloads. I doubt anyboyd in the 15-20 seconds it would take him to reload would have been able to do much in teh chaos

I was responding to the post I quoted. Reread that please.

Also, it doesn't take anywhere near 15-20 seconds to reload. Not for someone trained with weapons. 5 seconds max. Probably more like 2 or 3.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

This is crazy:

One survivor said he and his friends also escaped death last year in the deadliest US mass shooting of modern times, when a gunman killed 58 people at a Las Vegas country music concert.

Nicholas Champion told CBS News: "We're all a big family and unfortunately this family got hit twice."​

This will likely start being the case more and more.

 

[rumble_lion]

The gunman used an extended magazine per reports. They make a 26 round magazine for the Glock 21 (.45 caliber). You can buy it legally online. I'm guessing it's illegal in California though. So who are you calling stupid?

Also, the Glock 21 has a 13 round magazine that is not considered "extended" as it fits within the hand grip.

The gunman used an extended magazine per reports. They make a 26 round magazine for the Glock 21 (.45 caliber). You can buy it legally online. I'm guessing it's illegal in California though. So who are you calling stupid?

Keep guessing, eventually you will get one right.

https://www.nraila.org/articles/201...s-decision-to-block-california-s-magazine-ban

FAIRFAX, Va. -- A three-judge panel of the 9th Circuit issued a ruling in the case of Duncan v. Becerra on Tuesday upholding a lower court’s decision to suspend enforcement of California’s restriction on the possession of magazines that hold 10 rounds or more.

“This is a significant win for law-abiding gun owners in California,” said Chris W. Cox, executive director, National Rifle Association Institute for Legislative Action. “This unconstitutional law criminalizes mere possession of many standard capacity magazines and would instantly turn many law-abiding gun owners into criminals.”

California Rifle and Pistol Association lawyers, with the support of the NRA, sought an injunction against the magazine possession ban, arguing the law violated the Second Amendment as well as Americans’ due process rights. A federal district court judge agreed and issued a preliminary injunction before the law was set to go into effect. California appealed the decision.

On Tuesday, the 9th Circuit upheld the injunction.​

 

[fizzyskittles]

I was responding to the post I quoted. Reread that please.

Also, it doesn't take anywhere near 15-20 seconds to reload. Not for someone trained with weapons. 5 seconds max. Probably more like 2 or 3.

Even quicker than that under two if you practice .

 

[Talpsu]

This is crazy:

One survivor said he and his friends also escaped death last year in the deadliest US mass shooting of modern times, when a gunman killed 58 people at a Las Vegas country music concert.

Nicholas Champion told CBS News: "We're all a big family and unfortunately this family got hit twice."​

That's some crazy $hit right there to have it happen twice. Its like Qbli's sig with Bruce willis in diehard 2 but in real life. How does that happen to someone twice like that? Crazy

 

[fizzyskittles]

i get that, but for a trained marine, how hard is it to pull out a magazine clip and put in a new one. so even if he did not have an extended magazine, he just reloads. I doubt anyboyd in the 15-20 seconds it would take him to reload would have been able to do much in teh chaos

15-20 second is a lifetime . I hunt and I’ve seen, shouldered my gun, and killed a deer in two seconds already. I’d be ready in 2-3 seconds including identifying the target .

 

[Obliviax]

That's some crazy $hit right there to have it happen twice. Its like Qbli's sig with Bruce willis in diehard 2 but in real life. How does that happen to someone twice like that? Crazy

...at the root, gotta give up country music.

 

[fizzyskittles]

Easy, when the police show up they just shoot everyone that has a gun and sort it all out later at the hospital.

Not necessarily. There are ways to make yourself as an armed citizen less of a target. Police roll up, comply immediately. Holster your gun , drop it, do whatever they say.

 

[fizzyskittles]

This is what I'm getting at - nothing against the first-responders on the scene - but more so the argument that comes up every time there's a mass shooting that if everyone was armed they would stop the killer. In a chaotic situation even if carrying the likelihood reacting fast enough to prevent more tragedy is very low.

Not necessarily. You might not prevent all deaths or injuries but the chance is much greater you will reduce them. It doesn’t take much time to identify the shooter, draw, aim , fire.

 

[fizzyskittles]

...at the root, gotta give up country music.

Especially shit pop country.

 

[psuro]

Not necessarily. There are ways to make yourself as an armed citizen less of a target. Police roll up, comply immediately. Holster your gun , drop it, do whatever they say.

Police roll up in an armed shooter situation, and you holster your gun- meaning that the bad guy is the only one with a gun and ready to shoot? What if he drops it, holsters it and does whatever they say? And he points the finger at you?

 

[MJG-90]

Keep guessing, eventually you will get one right.

I'm not sure what you mean exactly. I was "guessing" going off the reports that the gunman used an illegal extended magazine. And the fact that I own a "California legal" M&P .22 (no flash suppressor and can't adjust the stock).

I pointed out to the guy comparing a 10 round glock mag to a 30 round AR mag that you can in fact buy a 26 round mag for the Glock 21. I know this because I own a Glock 21. Though I only have 13 round magazines (the other fact I pointed out).

 

[MJG-90]

What if he drops it, holsters it and does whatever they say? And he points the finger at you?

Ballistics will determine who shot at whom. That's not an issue.

 

[psuro]

Ballistics will determine who shot at whom. That's not an issue.

So, you are, in essence, agreeing with rumble_lion. The police will sort it out later - regardless of what transpired.

 

[BBrown]

Ballistics will determine who shot at whom. That's not an issue.

It kind of is if people are still firing at each other.

 

[MJG-90]

So, you are, in essence, agreeing with rumble_lion. The police will sort it out later - regardless of what transpired.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with either. I'm saying that in your scenario, you'd be okay because ballistics (and probably witnesses) would be on your side.

I've already pointed out in this thread that having untrained people carrying weapons in public places is a disaster waiting to happen. That's my stance. Otherwise, I'm just trying to keep facts straight.

 

[MJG-90]

It kind of is if people are still firing at each other.

Reread the scenario to which i responded. Guns are already down.

 

[BBrown]

Reread the scenario to which i responded. Guns are already down.

Ok but I still think thats a very, very iffy and tenuous position to be putting yourself in.
And frankly I'm not even sure I want the police, at that time, to be trying to figure it out.

 

[ClarkstonMark]

i get that, but for a trained marine, how hard is it to pull out a magazine clip and put in a new one. so even if he did not have an extended magazine, he just reloads. I doubt anyboyd in the 15-20 seconds it would take him to reload would have been able to do much in teh chaos

I have that exact gun the shooter used, and I could go through multiple clips in a minute I am sure (not that I have or will, ammo is expensive)