Should we run a 3-4 defense next season?

[psu skp]

Maybe it's "just not done" in the Big 10 anymore (like using a fullback), but it might make sense for us to consider using more of a classic, 3-4 base next season because:

1) We lose three DT's: Chavis and Cothra(e)n (ok, two since they are like twins ) and among the players we have returning, we have two or three very big, run-stuffing NT types and a few guys who are a bit smaller and might be a good fit in a 3-4.

2. We don't have (and may not soon get) a gladiator MLB type like we had with Cabinda. Having two ILB's instead of one MLB puts less pressure on the guys who man the middle, especially since we don't have sure-tackling Marcus Allen backing them up next season.

3. While we are loaded at DE, a number of our guys seem more like a 'will' OLB who can drop back into coverage but is primarily a blitzer and who play better in open space. Traditionally, the other 'sam' OLB is more like a strong safety and we have Farmer and Jarvis Williams to man that spot.

Thoughts?

 

[Rip_E_2_Joe_PA]

This has occurred to me.... along with a 5-2

A lot could depend on the projections of Dwight Galt and the performance team.
.... and any ready to participate new comers.

 

[ejb25]

I remember after the 2015 season, we lost 3 Starters in Nassib, Zettle, and Austin Johnson, along with Barney to the NFL. And many on this board were freaking out about how our DL would stink and some suggested we should switch our Base Defense. 2016 and 2017 worked out ok. Trust in Franklin, Trust in Spencer, Trust the process.

 

[PSU_Nut]

Maybe it's "just not done" in the Big 10 anymore (like using a fullback), but it might make sense for us to consider using more of a classic, 3-4 base next season because:

1) We lose three DT's: Chavis and Cothra(e)n (ok, two since they are like twins ) and among the players we have returning, we have two or three very big, run-stuffing NT types and a few guys who are a bit smaller and might be a good fit in a 3-4.

2. We don't have (and may not soon get) a gladiator MLB type like we had with Cabinda. Having two ILB's instead of one MLB puts less pressure on the guys who man the middle, especially since we don't have sure-tackling Marcus Allen backing them up next season.

3. While we are loaded at DE, a number of our guys seem more like a 'will' OLB who can drop back into coverage but is primarily a blitzer and who play better in open space. Traditionally, the other 'sam' OLB is more like a strong safety and we have Farmer and Jarvis Williams to man that spot.

Thoughts?

It would be the biggest disaster ever. Do you seriously want a coaching staff implementing a defense they are not familiar with and experienced in? There are major growing pains for staffs who do come me from a 3-4 background let alone one that never ran it.

 

[Rip_E_2_Joe_PA]

Doesn't our defensive front 7 actually perform rather as a hybrid anyway? Really, Simmons and Toney are seen side by side with dbacks in coverage from time to time or function as rush backers depending on offensive sets and reads..... Just because they are set before the snap in a 4-3 doesn't mean we are deploying 4-3.

Sean Spenser is a genius as far as I am concerned and a lot of fan whining has occurred with brow beating our defense during games, that is silly. These defensive coaches are extremely versatile and have a great grasp of defensive schemes and the talent we have on hand and how to deploy and decoy them. I, for one, am not worried about it. Just as I was not 2 years ago when all the DT hysteria took over most of the year ending threads here.

 

[cvilleelkscoach]

Maybe it's "just not done" in the Big 10 anymore (like using a fullback), but it might make sense for us to consider using more of a classic, 3-4 base next season because:

1) We lose three DT's: Chavis and Cothra(e)n (ok, two since they are like twins ) and among the players we have returning, we have two or three very big, run-stuffing NT types and a few guys who are a bit smaller and might be a good fit in a 3-4.

2. We don't have (and may not soon get) a gladiator MLB type like we had with Cabinda. Having two ILB's instead of one MLB puts less pressure on the guys who man the middle, especially since we don't have sure-tackling Marcus Allen backing them up next season.

3. While we are loaded at DE, a number of our guys seem more like a 'will' OLB who can drop back into coverage but is primarily a blitzer and who play better in open space. Traditionally, the other 'sam' OLB is more like a strong safety and we have Farmer and Jarvis Williams to man that spot.

Thoughts?

Not a good idea. We will be ok on our interior next year. But more importantly, the 3-5 lacks pressure in passing downs. In our current defense on passing downs we pull a LB for a DB in nickel. It allows us to maintain a 4 man pass rush. The 3-5 then forces you to pull a backer and send a backer for a 4 man rush. Not as effective. I want guys rushing the passer that do it every play.

 

[Nit777]

Maybe it's "just not done" in the Big 10 anymore (like using a fullback), but it might make sense for us to consider using more of a classic, 3-4 base next season because:

1) We lose three DT's: Chavis and Cothra(e)n (ok, two since they are like twins ) and among the players we have returning, we have two or three very big, run-stuffing NT types and a few guys who are a bit smaller and might be a good fit in a 3-4.

2. We don't have (and may not soon get) a gladiator MLB type like we had with Cabinda. Having two ILB's instead of one MLB puts less pressure on the guys who man the middle, especially since we don't have sure-tackling Marcus Allen backing them up next season.

3. While we are loaded at DE, a number of our guys seem more like a 'will' OLB who can drop back into coverage but is primarily a blitzer and who play better in open space. Traditionally, the other 'sam' OLB is more like a strong safety and we have Farmer and Jarvis Williams to man that spot.

Thoughts?

If CJF's long term plan is to play a 4-3, changing for a year to a 3-4 interrupts development both individually and schematically. Likely candidates are Simmons and Toney. They are now rushers and edge setters and are refining those skills. If they are OLBs they need different skills. Then in 2019, go back to being DEs?.

This coming year, Farmer and Brown return. Some recent posts indicate that Bowen may get a second chance. If so, there are your three starting LBs.

Then, add in Brooks, Franklin and FW and you have depth in quality recruits who have had a year to work in the system.

Then, add in Parsons and maybe Luketa and you have 8 LBs who can play. Cooper and Johnson offer some additional depth and clean up duty.

The first four games are three OOC games and at Illinois. That's an additional month of actual game experience for the LBs to figure it out both individually and as a team.

Again, if CJF plans to use a base 4-3 into the future, I would hang with it this year.

 

[ThePennsyOracle]

What the hell?

The BWI McAndrew Boad continues to deliver.

 

[psu skp]

If CJF's long term plan is to play a 4-3, changing for a year to a 3-4 interrupts development both individually and schematically. Likely candidates are Simmons and Toney. They are now rushers and edge setters and are refining those skills. If they are OLBs they need different skills. Then in 2019, go back to being DEs?.

This coming year, Farmer and Brown return. Some recent posts indicate that Bowen may get a second chance. If so, there are your three starting LBs.

Then, add in Brooks, Franklin and FW and you have depth in quality recruits who have had a year to work in the system.

Then, add in Parsons and maybe Luketa and you have 8 LBs who can play. Cooper and Johnson offer some additional depth and clean up duty.

The first four games are three OOC games and at Illinois. That's an additional month of actual game experience for the LBs to figure it out both individually and as a team.

Again, if CJF plans to use a base 4-3 into the future, I would hang with it this year.

I was more thinking the change would be for a few seasons, not so much one year. We used to switch our base defense every few years or so to fit our personnel. 1977, 1981, 1985, and 1993 come to mind (and a NC run followed in short order). But you raise some good points.

Since it seems Pry is staying at least another 12 months and he is known as a LB guru, thought it would be an interesting possibility. But we most likely stay with our current scheme for the good reasons you listed.

 

[djr4rebs]

Our current defense resembles a 4-2-5 more than a 4-3 at times.

And if you don't have 1 MLB who can stuff the run most every down, you certainly don't switch to a 3-4 and put two guys in the middle who can't stuff the run.

Go back to Gaskins Wildcat TD run. We had two guys in, essentially, the interior ILB alignment of a 3-4 and we were burned badly.

 

[LaJolla Lion]

5-5-1!!!

 

[83wuzme]

From what little I know, we don’t have the DT personnel to consider it for next year. I agree that we have some guys in Simmons, Toney, Parsons and Cam Brown who might work out very well as 3 - 4 LB’s.
There are probably a lot of reasons why we don’t see many CFB teams running a 3 - 4.

 

[ThePennsyOracle]

From what little I know, we don’t have the DT personnel to consider it for next year. I agree that we have some guys in Simmons, Toney, Parsons and Cam Brown who might work out very well as 3 - 4 LB’s.
There are probably a lot of reasons why we don’t see many CFB teams running a 3 - 4.

DT personnel?

Even if we had Vita Vea, we don't have 4 linebackers capable of playing the position. We're going to struggle to have 3 next year, and how someone mentions playing a 3-4 is beyond me.

 

[psu skp]

There are probably a lot of reasons why we don’t see many CFB teams running a 3 - 4.

Agreed. Not sure exactly why. In today's pass-happy game, you would think a scheme which routinely puts four guys back vs only three would be as good a fit as any.

Maybe, it's just about pressure, pressure, pressure

 

[ThePennsyOracle]

5-5-1!!!

I was thinking 6-1-4 myself.

From L to R:
Gross-Matos, Bucholtz, Givens, Windsor, Simmons, Toney

LB:
Jake Cooper

CB:
Wade, Castro-Fields

FS:
Monroe

SS:
Scott

 

[djr4rebs]

Agreed. Not sure exactly why. In today's pass-happy game, you would think a scheme which routinely puts four guys back vs only three would be as good a fit as any.

Maybe, it's just about pressure, pressure, pressure

Stopping the run is priority #1. If you can't eat space, penetrate, and open gaps for LBs to tackle the 3-4 is worthless. Once a team can run successfully on the 3-4, play action is death.

 

[ThePennsyOracle]

Think the original post made that clear. It involves placing some of our tweeners at a 'will' OLB spot and putting less pressure on the other LB's by having more guys splitting the middle of the field.

Right, and what have our tweeners shown that leads you to believe any is capable of playing in space?

 

[psu skp]

Right, and what have our tweeners shown that leads you to believe any is capable of playing in space?

Closely watching film from this past season. Even Kevin Givens was dropped off the line about four times in the Fiesta Bowl. A few other guys seem more like our old style OLB's than a Big10 DE in the Michael Haynes/Courtney Brown mold. Sort of the way Tamba Hali & Cameron Wake are used in the NFL.

Not saying we should switch our scheme, just a hypothetical.

 

[1000_OaksLion]

We're recruiting to play 4 down lineman. That said since CJFs arrival he's had DE's drop into coverage and pass rush from a stand up position much like a 3 4 scheme. The issue with a 3 4 scheme is having a NT that demands a double team. It hard to recruit those types consistently out of high school. If the NT can be handled with a single OL the 3 4 losses it's effectiveness. That's why most colleges play the 4 3 scheme.

 

[Nitwit]

I’m good with what we’ve been doing. No reason to change. Trust the coaches.

 

[hereforthebeer]

Appreciate the football discussion, but no. We currently don't have a viable one-tech. Nobody to eat up double teams all day long without giving up ground and nobody to relieve them. Traditional nt's run about 320lbs on the hoof. We have zero mlb's, let alone two. Asking the olb's we're going to have playing mlb to stack and shed, taking on blocks, is not viable. It's a matter of numbers. One of those guys is always taking on the center or a guard. They'd get pasted.

People worry too much about this. Base defense is nickel. In my opinion, we're best served developing the strength and rotational depth of the dt's, along with a strong safety who can play in the box and help in run support.

 

[Ranger Dan]

No, that would be awful with our roster. The current D ends would end up playing OLB and we don’t have enough D tackles to cover the three D tackle sports.

 

[hereforthebeer]

No, that would be awful with our roster. The current D ends would end up playing OLB and we don’t have enough D tackles to cover the three D tackle sports.

Huh? Two five- techniques and a zero, aka two ends and a nose tackle.

Bucholtz and Givens would be great 3-4 defensive ends. We just don't have a true nose tackle on the roster. Miller, Simmons, Toney, and Parsons would look great coming off the edge as olb's.

 

[djr4rebs]

Miller, Simmons, Toney, and Parsons would look great coming off the edge as olb's.

They can still line up that way without switching to a 3-4.

 

[PSU Soupy]

5-5-1!!!

8-4-3 would be effective.

 

[jrd23psu]

It's harder to find two OLB than it is two DEs. Running at 4-3 is just easier to recruit. The OLB has to be able to rush off the outside as well drop into coverage.

I've advocated the Steelers switch to a 4-3 since they can't seem to find that OLB. They draft one in the first round every year. They finally hit the mark with TJ Watt but Bud Dupree still seems to be a project and they struck out with Jarvis Jones before him.

With that being said, right now they have a guy in Micah Parsons who would be an ideal OLB in a 3-4 but I don't think Farmer would be a good OLB in a 3-4, but he would do OK as a MLB.

I think they should sick with a 4-3.

 

[RTLH]

Maybe it's "just not done" in the Big 10 anymore (like using a fullback), but it might make sense for us to consider using more of a classic, 3-4 base next season because:

1) We lose three DT's: Chavis and Cothra(e)n (ok, two since they are like twins ) and among the players we have returning, we have two or three very big, run-stuffing NT types and a few guys who are a bit smaller and might be a good fit in a 3-4.

2. We don't have (and may not soon get) a gladiator MLB type like we had with Cabinda. Having two ILB's instead of one MLB puts less pressure on the guys who man the middle, especially since we don't have sure-tackling Marcus Allen backing them up next season.

3. While we are loaded at DE, a number of our guys seem more like a 'will' OLB who can drop back into coverage but is primarily a blitzer and who play better in open space. Traditionally, the other 'sam' OLB is more like a strong safety and we have Farmer and Jarvis Williams to man that spot.

Thoughts?

I don't think we have the experienced linebackers to do it yet.

Also you need that beast of a nose tackle someone about 6'3" -6' 4" 335 to wreak havoc up the middle

Where is NYNY when you need him he seemed to be the biggest supporter of the 3-4.

 

[hereforthebeer]

They can still line up that way without switching to a 3-4.

Yeah...

And two out of those three will do exactly that out of the 4-3 during their careers here.

 

[Ranger Dan]

Huh? Two five- techniques and a zero, aka two ends and a nose tackle.

Bucholtz and Givens would be great 3-4 defensive ends. We just don't have a true nose tackle on the roster. Miller, Simmons, Toney, and Parsons would look great coming off the edge as olb's.

Taking the D ends we have now, most are coming in on the lighter side and would end up at OLB and we wouldn’t have enough depth at D end

 

[hereforthebeer]

I can't wait until we get to see what a real Sam in this defense looks like. Farmer is our current Sam. Wait until Parsons or someone else could message of age and watch the wreckage they create off the edge.

(Bear in mind that in this D the Will and Sam roles are reversed.)

 

[hereforthebeer]

Taking the D ends we have now, most are coming in on the lighter side and would end up at OLB and we wouldn’t have enough depth at D end

5-techs grow on trees. That's why 3-4 de's in the NFL don't make the big bucks. The trouble in the college game is coming up with a nose tackle or two who can hold the point of attack. 320lb kids with strength and stamina are a little tough to find and they bolt early. See Austin Johnson as a case-in-point. He was also the last kid through here who could've played the zero.