PSU potential starting Line up

[Blackcat97]

Certifying at 174 just means the lowest weight class he can wrestle at is 174. Hypothetically he could weigh in at 163 and still wrestle, but the lowest allowable weight class would be 174. He could weigh on as heavy as he wanted, and wrestle any weight above 174.
So at Big10 if he weighed in at say 173...he could still wrestle 174.

 

[CowboyUp61]

Obviously for normal weigh ins (duals). But Wasn't Jefe referring to being given a weight allowance during a tournament?

Or maybe I misinterpreted his post

You get a weight allowance on the second day of the tournament, used to be 1 pound per day. And maybe some open tournaments to begin the year. Duals, and Reno, are scratch weight.

 

[PSUcup1]

You get a weight allowance on the second day of the tournament, used to be 1 pound per day. And maybe some open tournaments to begin the year. Duals, and Reno, are scratch weight.

Yes. I know and He'd be allowed to wrestle on day 2 weighing 174.1.

 

[PSU Mike]

That's not how it works...that's not how any of this works!

So all jto meant is that MM hit the absolute maximum weight to be certified to wrestle at any event at 174? Got it. I thought I might have misunderstood and there were standards I had been unaware of.

 

[JasonBryant]

Certifying at 174 just means the lowest weight class he can wrestle at is 174. Hypothetically he could weigh in at 163 and still wrestle, but the lowest allowable weight class would be 174. He could weigh on as heavy as he wanted, and wrestle any weight above 174.
So at Big10 if he weighed in at say 173...he could still wrestle 174.

That's not actually true. You have a minimum wrestling weight (certification) and you have a minimum wrestling weight (the actual weight). You can't go lower than that minimum "actual" weight.

 

[CowboyUp61]

Yes. I know and He'd be allowed to wrestle on day 2 weighing 174.1.

I thought he was referring to a staggered allowance during the season, IE 3 lbs through Nov, 2 lbs in Dec, 1lb in Jan. Don't think they do that any more. But yes, during a tournament he would be able to compete at 174.1 the second day.

If your absolute minimum weight at certification is say 169, then the lowest weight possible for competition would be 174.

 

[Ja1339]

Since it's clear to me now I'll never get a BSD post written about it...here's the info I got, from 3 different highly credible sources. For each bullet, first number = number of confirmed sources and second number = my confidence in its validity, out of 10:

• Nickal only certified at 184, cannot compete collegiately at 174 at all this season. (3 / 10)
• McCutcheon certified at 174. His minimum allowed weight is 174.0. On the dot. (2 / 10)
  
• McCutcheon & Nickal will wrestle off for 184 next week, 10/18 - 10/20. (2 / 10)
• Morelli certified at 174, but not 165. (1 / 9)
• Cassar hasn't been cleared to compete (1 / 10)

Here are some personal guesses / takes from all of that:

• Nickal winning 184 is not at all automatic
  
• I'd guess Cael is....let's call it disappointed... with Nickal for not certing at 174
• Probably also pissed at Morelli for not certing at 165
• Very curious how Cael manages this situation--even more so if McCutcheon wins whatever the coaches structure the wrestleoffs as, across three days. Although then my curiosity will include how Nickal manages the situation
  
• McCutcheon cutting to 174 would be brutal af, but is still considered realistically viable--for now--by himself and the coaches
• If Nickal wins, McCutcheon will probably try to cut to 174 and compete there in Reno. I'm curious af to picture what cutting to 174.0, but not to 173.9 looks like
  
• Cassar may not be cleared all year
• For 197, if Nickal wins, I'd guess Stout will start the season. If McCutcheon wins, I'd guess Nickal will start the season
• I'd guess McCutcheon *can* make 174 for Reno, but will be so uncomfortable that he'll abandon it before season's end.

Standard caveats:
- yes, this is a message board
- no, I'm not a "journalist"
- yes, I worked hard sharing this info correctly, with correct info parameters to each bullet and correct attribution counts
- yes, I was given permission to share each bullet anonymously
- yes, I'm scared as schitt I'm messing up by so doing
- in the end, I decided to share because I think the info brings more value, to more people (I've always gotten a lot out of getting room info from others) than it possibly might do in drama damage
- I hope you'll be kind with your feedback

Do you think Cael wanted Bo to certify at 74, but Bo choose not to?[/QUOTE]

 

[El-Jefe]

I'll let JP clarify, but I interpreted "174.0 on the dot" to mean Mouse cannot weigh 173.9 lb.

If that's true, then there is virtually zero margin for error on Day 1 of any tournament. If he weighs 173.9, he's out. If he weighs 174.1, he's out. If the locker room scale says he's good, and then the official scale says he's out, then he's out.

Also need to factor significant digits on the official scale. If it reads to tenths, then he could weigh 174.06 and be out.

Let's say the scale tolerance is 0.03 lb -- then he could truly weigh 174.03, but the scale says he's 174.06, so he's out. 0.03 lb = 0.48 oz. His true (not measured) body weight would need to be within 1/2 oz to guarantee wrestling on Day 1 of a tourney. Good luck with that.

 

[Dungeon Yankee]

Do you think Cael wanted Bo to certify at 74, but Bo choose not to?

[/QUOTE]
If this is true, then Bo is only thinking about himself. I hope that is not the case.

 

[PSU Mike]

I'll let JP clarify, but I interpreted "174.0 on the dot" to mean Mouse cannot weigh 173.9 lb.

If that's true, then there is virtually zero margin for error on Day 1 of any tournament. If he weighs 173.9, he's out. If he weighs 174.1, he's out. If the locker room scale says he's good, and then the official scale says he's out, then he's out.

Also need to factor significant digits on the official scale. If it reads to tenths, then he could weigh 174.06 and be out.

Let's say the scale tolerance is 0.03 lb -- then he could truly weigh 174.03, but the scale says he's 174.06, so he's out. 0.03 lb = 0.48 oz. His true (not measured) body weight would need to be within 1/2 oz to guarantee wrestling on Day 1 of a tourney. Good luck with that.

Jason, is this your understanding? That's where I started with jtothemfp's post, but got talked out of it...

 

[jtothemfp]

I'll let JP clarify, but I interpreted "174.0 on the dot" to mean Mouse cannot weigh 173.9 lb.

If that's true, then there is virtually zero margin for error on Day 1 of any tournament. If he weighs 173.9, he's out. If he weighs 174.1, he's out. If the locker room scale says he's good, and then the official scale says he's out, then he's out.

Also need to factor significant digits on the official scale. If it reads to tenths, then he could weigh 174.06 and be out.

Let's say the scale tolerance is 0.03 lb -- then he could truly weigh 174.03, but the scale says he's 174.06, so he's out. 0.03 lb = 0.48 oz. His true (not measured) body weight would need to be within 1/2 oz to guarantee wrestling on Day 1 of a tourney. Good luck with that.

That's the way I understood it, and JB confirmed it above. Although I'd add the word "class" in his first part, like this:

That's not actually true. You have a minimum wrestling weight *class* (certification) and you have a minimum wrestling weight (the actual weight). You can't go lower than that minimum "actual" weight.​

Blackcat's first example, on the lower end, is wrong in McCutcheon's case. McCutcheon won't be allowed to compete--at any weight-- if he weighs 163. Because his lowest certified minimum actual weight (not Weight Class) is 174.0. The second part of his example is correct on the surface ("He could weigh on as heavy as he wanted, and wrestle any weight above 174.") but is misapplied to our discussion specifically on McCutcheon competing at the 174 pound weight class.

And I think your deductive reasoning is spot on--scale variability's gotta make the whole enterprise extremely difficult. But I'd have to guess the process would start with being under, then sipping water to come up to 174.0, but not enough to be 174.1.

In any event, the first weight he has to make is probably 184.0, next week for his wrestle-offs with Nickal. Depending on how the coaches build the structure of those wrestleoffs.

 

[jschrantz]

Was hoping Cassar would be cleared this year at some point as it was suggested surgery was handled better this time with the Team.

 

[JasonBryant]

That's the way I understand it.

 

[LemonPie]

If this is true, then Bo is only thinking about himself. I hope that is not the case.

Careful, BRO! OR I WILL HAVE TO FIGHT YOU FOR YOUR MESSAGE BOARD POST!

Bo is one of the nicest guys on the team. Zain got to go up after a 5th place finish. Bo placed 2nd. Cael said it was up to him, and reports indicated that Bo was letting people know several weeks ago. If he is planning on getting big, I can understand not wanting to certify for 10 unnecessary pounds. There is no confirmation that he was asked to certify at 174. Cutch has never made AA. Maybe that's why he was asked to cert at 174. It's reasonable to assume that Bo is going to be given every opportunity to win the spot regardless of room results.

 

[LemonPie]

Cassar was cleared in February this past year? Or was it January? He was hurt like mid-late August. This time around he was hurt in mid-late May.

 

[lobo lion]

Well, now I feel like a simpleton. I don't know or understand the rules governing weight certification and determining a wrestler's minimum actual weight. It seems awfully early in the year for the determination to have already been made that Bo will not be able to wrestle at 174, but it sounds like that's what the certification process is all about, and it seems as if the certification process is already completed. Is that correct? And how is a wrestler's minimum actual weight calculated? Is that calculation only done once, that one time being during the preseason?

 

[LemonPie]

174 Cutch
Rasheed
Morelli
Brill
Van Cura

And then in January, Hall comes in Cael's office and says, "LOL, I got this"

 

[Dungeon Yankee]

Careful, BRO! OR I WILL HAVE TO FIGHT YOU FOR YOUR MESSAGE BOARD POST!

Bo is one of the nicest guys on the team. Zain got to go up after a 5th place finish. Bo placed 2nd. Cael said it was up to him, and reports indicated that Bo was letting people know several weeks ago. If he is planning on getting big, I can understand not wanting to certify for 10 unnecessary pounds. There is no confirmation that he was asked to certify at 174. Cutch has never made AA. Maybe that's why he was asked to cert at 174. It's reasonable to assume that Bo is going to be given every opportunity to win the spot regardless of room results.

I'm glad you are proving me wrong. I want what is best for the team.

 

[NYWRESTLER94]

174 Cutch
Rasheed
Morelli
Brill
Van Cura

And then in January, Hall comes in Cael's office and says, "LOL, I got this"

Rasheed's AA caliber he won't even make Cael question making that decision

 

[LemonPie]

Rasheed's AA caliber he won't even make Cael question making that decision

I sure hope so. I do like his ability and would love for him to get another opportunity in the lineup, but to me it just seems like Hall is a no brainer. Do we really need to see him in college for 5 years? unless it's to take a break in 2019, Nickal's move to 184 makes the decision even simpler. But perhaps Hall has some individual collegiate goals that I tend to overlook. He talks so frequently about his freestyle preference and his Olympic aspirations that I forget that maybe he wants to be a 4X NCAA D1 champion. And redshirting would certainly help him there (though Jordan doesn't disappear).

I will say this. If Rasheed comes out and wipes the mat with Jim Wilson, I would think he likes the weight class a little better.

 

[21Guns]

So, it looks like Kellan Stout is the man at 197 then this year? Cassar out for the season?

I think it will be tough, coming back at the end of the season, just considering that Nick tried to pull it off last year and just wasn't right.

 

[nitlion6]

Bo is wrestling 184 this season.
Nobody on the staff seems to have much of a problem with that decision.
The entire staff is excited. Last year's team was a known quantity. This year's team is somewhat of an unknown and they are excited to see if the team can be as good as they believe it is going to be.

 

[diggerpup]

Can wrestler re-certify at another time during the season ?

Or is the only time to certify in October, and that's it?

 

[El-Jefe]

So, it looks like Kellan Stout is the man at 197 then this year? Cassar out for the season?

I think it will be tough, coming back at the end of the season, just considering that Nick tried to pull it off last year and just wasn't right.

Way premature. Even from the beginning, he wasn't going to be ready until at least November.

Plus, "not cleared" to do what exactly? To not wrestle competitively? To not drill? To not lift weights? What?

Until Cassar returns, Next Man Up is pretty good.

 

[Ja1339]

Careful, BRO! OR I WILL HAVE TO FIGHT YOU FOR YOUR MESSAGE BOARD POST!

Bo is one of the nicest guys on the team. Zain got to go up after a 5th place finish. Bo placed 2nd. Cael said it was up to him, and reports indicated that Bo was letting people know several weeks ago. If he is planning on getting big, I can understand not wanting to certify for 10 unnecessary pounds. There is no confirmation that he was asked to certify at 174. Cutch has never made AA. Maybe that's why he was asked to cert at 174. It's reasonable to assume that Bo is going to be given every opportunity to win the spot regardless of room results.

Yea, I certainly get Cael leaving it up to Bo after he finished 2nd last year. I'd agree he has certainly earned the right to make the call. But it seems to me that the logical reasons for this move would be, 1) having a hard time maintaining the old weight, 74, 2) making room for someone else to move into old weight, or 3) the team is better/more competitive after the move.

If the move is to better align himself with Freestyle weight, then I don't believe this helps the team.

Regarding number 2, perhaps Hall could discard the shirt, and come into 74. Cael mentioned in the Carlson article that Hall was planning on red shirting. But I believe he also mentioned, things could change. The earlier posts indicate the consensus is that is very unlikely.

 

[Blackcat97]

That's the way I understood it, and JB confirmed it above. Although I'd add the word "class" in his first part, like this:

That's not actually true. You have a minimum wrestling weight *class* (certification) and you have a minimum wrestling weight (the actual weight). You can't go lower than that minimum "actual" weight.​

Blackcat's first example, on the lower end, is wrong in McCutcheon's case. McCutcheon won't be allowed to compete--at any weight-- if he weighs 163. Because his lowest certified minimum actual weight (not Weight Class) is 174.0. The second part of his example is correct on the surface ("He could weigh on as heavy as he wanted, and wrestle any weight above 174.") but is misapplied to our discussion specifically on McCutcheon competing at the 174 pound weight class.

And I think your deductive reasoning is spot on--scale variability's gotta make the whole enterprise extremely difficult. But I'd have to guess the process would start with being under, then sipping water to come up to 174.0, but not enough to be 174.1.

In any event, the first weight he has to make is probably 184.0, next week for his wrestle-offs with Nickal. Depending on how the coaches build the structure of those wrestleoffs.

Did this recently change...I wrestled in college (D2) and never had a problem (or heard of anybody else) having a problem if they were below their minimum allowable weight. Also it seems in HS I have seen many kids weigh-in below their 7% number, but lowest they can wrestle is that weight class. Apologies for passing on wrong information.

 

[LemonPie]

Yea, I certainly get Cael leaving it up to Bo after he finished 2nd last year. I'd agree he has certainly earned the right to make the call. But it seems to me that the logical reasons for this move would be, 1) having a hard time maintaining the old weight, 74, 2) making room for someone else to move into old weight, or 3) the team is better/more competitive after the move.

If the move is to better align himself with Freestyle weight, then I don't believe this helps the team.

Regarding number 2, perhaps Hall could discard the shirt, and come into 74. Cael mentioned in the Carlson article that Hall was planning on red shirting. But I believe he also mentioned, things could change. The earlier posts indicate the consensus is that is very unlikely.

Zain moved up for the exact same reason and the early returns at 65 KG have been positive. It didn't necessarily help Gulibon, Beitz, or the team.

My guess is that there are a few people upset with Bo moving up because Cutch is a state kid who projected as a 4-year starter. I mean, the infatuation with him is so silly that people actually were actually wanting/predicting Hall to take a greyshirt + redshirt.

 

[El-Jefe]

Zain moved up for the exact same reason and the early returns at 65 KG have been positive. It didn't necessarily help Gulibon, Beitz, or the team.

My guess is that there are a few people upset with Bo moving up because Cutch is a state kid who projected as a 4-year starter. I mean, the infatuation with him is so silly that people actually were actually wanting/predicting Hall to take a greyshirt + redshirt.

Having both Nico and Conaway in the lineup didn't help the team? Interesting theory.

And the theory of Hall grayshirting + redshirting had little to do with McCutcheon -- and everything to do with getting the best 4 possible years out of Hall.

 

[LemonPie]

Having both Nico and Conaway in the lineup didn't help the team? Interesting theory.

And the theory of Hall grayshirting + redshirting had little to do with McCutcheon -- and everything to do with getting the best 4 possible years out of Hall.

Conaway/Gulibon at 133 was a wash, most likely. Maybe slight edge to senior JC. He may have still been in the lineup. But Zain/Gulibon's move made for a nice story. Zain at 141 and Zain at 149 is a wash. Gulibon at 141 on paper was an advantage over Beitz at 149--and I was very happy to see it--but in reality, given how weak 149 was, Beitz would have been a better option. But that's hindsight. I wouldn't have predicted that one.

But I support Zain moving up to add size for freestyle and I think posters should give Bo the same respect.

I don't really get what that's supposed to mean about Hall. He is very much needed next year. He may be needed this year as far as the team race is concerned. Does everyone need 2 years?

 

[21Guns]

Mark Hall does not "need" a redshirt, let's get that out of the way right now. Cael and Mark will decide what is best for Mark, AND the team, and they will both do exactly that. That might mean redshirt, that might mean go, but right now, at this moment, there might only be 2 wrestlers in the country who are able to beat him. MAYBE.

 

[Ja1339]

Zain moved up for the exact same reason and the early returns at 65 KG have been positive. It didn't necessarily help Gulibon, Beitz, or the team.

My guess is that there are a few people upset with Bo moving up because Cutch is a state kid who projected as a 4-year starter. I mean, the infatuation with him is so silly that people actually were actually wanting/predicting Hall to take a greyshirt + redshirt.

I don't consider myself infatuated with Cutch. I just assume the team is better off with Bo at 74, and Cutch/Rasheed at 84, than Cutch/ Rasheed at 74 and Bo at 84.

 

[LemonPie]

Mark Hall does not "need" a redshirt, let's get that out of the way right now. Cael and Mark will decide what is best for Mark, AND the team, and they will both do exactly that. That might mean redshirt, that might mean go, but right now, at this moment, there might only be 2 wrestlers in the country who are able to beat him. MAYBE.

No, I get that. I suppose the sentiment is that PSU could win the next two years without him, so might as well have him for the 4 years after. That's silly, IMO. Ohio St. is absolutely loaded the next two years. Okie St. and Iowa this year. I certainly don't mind taking the Myles Martin approach this year where we wait and see, but I hope that Cael and Mark are willing to pull the trigger. I still stand by my statement that Cutch had a lot to do with that kind of thinking. He's the AA holdover that many so desperately want him to be.

 

[LemonPie]

I don't consider myself infatuated with Cutch. I just assume the team is better off with Bo at 74, and Cutch/Rasheed at 84, than Cutch/ Rasheed at 74 and Bo at 84.

Fair enough. I apologize. Appreciate the info.

 

[21Guns]

No, I get that. I suppose the sentiment is that PSU could win the next two years without him, so might as well have him for the 4 years after. That's silly, IMO. Ohio St. is absolutely loaded the next two years. Okie St. and Iowa this year. I certainly don't mind taking the Myles Martin approach this year where we wait and see, but I hope that Cael and Mark are willing to pull the trigger. I still stand by my statement that Cutch had a lot to do with that kind of thinking. He's the AA holdover that many so desperately want him to be.

I'll come out and say it: I think we need Marky to take it this year.

Love, believe, respect, and fully support every one of our wrestlers, but I think we need Marky to win it this year. Hope I'm wrong.

 

[21Guns]

I don't consider myself infatuated with Cutch. I just assume the team is better off with Bo at 74, and Cutch/Rasheed at 84, than Cutch/ Rasheed at 74 and Bo at 84.

I think the team is better off with Mark at 174, Bo at 184, and Rasheed up at 197 to compliment Stout, if Cassar cannot go. I realize it's early, but seeing Nick last year made me realize that coming back with 3 weeks left before the B1G's, isn't enough time.

 

[Ja1339]

I think the team is better off with Mark at 174, Bo at 184, and Rasheed up at 197 to compliment Stout, if Cassar cannot go. I realize it's early, but seeing Nick last year made me realize that coming back with 3 weeks left before the B1G's, isn't enough time.

Agreed 21. The board seemed pretty definite that Hall would be redshirting. However, Cael mentioned Cassar at 97 in the Carlson article. If that changes, perhaps the thinking changes about Hall.

 

[garw]

I guess it's a "may the best man win" situation. What a problem to have. Good luck to all of them. They have my respect.

 

[LemonPie]

I think the team is better off with Mark at 174, Bo at 184, and Rasheed up at 197 to compliment Stout, if Cassar cannot go. I realize it's early, but seeing Nick last year made me realize that coming back with 3 weeks left before the B1G's, isn't enough time.

Nick was injured in August or September or something. Cassar may be working through his second injury, but I don't think the timetable will be the same.

 

[LemonPie]

I do think that, eventually, Rasheed will be awesome at 197.

 

[nitlion6]

Mark Hall does not "need" a redshirt, let's get that out of the way right now. Cael and Mark will decide what is best for Mark, AND the team, and they will both do exactly that. That might mean redshirt, that might mean go, but right now, at this moment, there might only be 2 wrestlers in the country who are able to beat him. MAYBE.

Yeah, 2 maybe. Hall doesn't have to wrestle Cox or Snyder though.
I doubt very much the Nits need Hall @ 74 to win the title this year though.