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Penn State Trustees call special meeting on Friday to discuss Freeh Report

I restrained by a Court Order
That I get and understand. What I meant is that you're talking, but not talking, or vice versa.

Let me try that another way. For those that hold Security Clearances, they can neither confirm nor deny the existence, on non-existence, of information. Yet, many times it is not very hard to determine the essence of everything going on simply by observing their actions, non-actions, associations, work habits and so on. Individuals with a clearance are also bound by law to remain mum or face severe penalties up to and including jail time. However, these people still have great liberty and have great freedoms to speak about many aspects of their jobs without breaking the law. I witness it every day. And these folks pass polygraphs tests over and over.

To speak in generalities, in tongues, in analogies and in a dozen other ways certainly doesn't seem as if would violate the T's&C's of an order. I surely haven't read your specific order. You have. Without naming specific dates, specific names and/or some very specific details, I contend that it is possible to lay out what is in the report. Your [seemingly] overly-conservative position is a little puzzling, that's all.

Cipriano laid out a beautiful story of what he apparently saw that was somehow leaked. By whom and how...doesn't matter. He states that Greg Paw and Frank Fina exchanged emails and information. Super data and very precise. Why couldn't you simply say something to the effect that member(s) of the Freeh Staff were routinely communicating directly with the Prosecution staff in the OAG? No specifics were given. No names involved. Not even the method of communication was provided. How that is in contempt of anything remains a mystery to most of us.

Perhaps you could accidentally forget to carry out a copy some random Friday evening after dining at Birchrunville Cafe;)
 
That I get and understand. What I meant is that you're talking, but not talking, or vice versa.

Let me try that another way. For those that hold Security Clearances, they can neither confirm nor deny the existence, on non-existence, of information. Yet, many times it is not very hard to determine the essence of everything going on simply by observing their actions, non-actions, associations, work habits and so on. Individuals with a clearance are also bound by law to remain mum or face severe penalties up to and including jail time. However, these people still have great liberty and have great freedoms to speak about many aspects of their jobs without breaking the law. I witness it every day. And these folks pass polygraphs tests over and over.

To speak in generalities, in tongues, in analogies and in a dozen other ways certainly doesn't seem as if would violate the T's&C's of an order. I surely haven't read your specific order. You have. Without naming specific dates, specific names and/or some very specific details, I contend that it is possible to lay out what is in the report. Your [seemingly] overly-conservative position is a little puzzling, that's all.

Cipriano laid out a beautiful story of what he apparently saw that was somehow leaked. By whom and how...doesn't matter. He states that Greg Paw and Frank Fina exchanged emails and information. Super data and very precise. Why couldn't you simply say something to the effect that member(s) of the Freeh Staff were routinely communicating directly with the Prosecution staff in the OAG? No specifics were given. No names involved. Not even the method of communication was provided. How that is in contempt of anything remains a mystery to most of us.

Perhaps you could accidentally forget to carry out a copy some random Friday evening after dining at Birchrunville Cafe;)

Haha. I didn’t know such a place existed there.

We (the 7 Plaintiff Trustees) are prohibited from discussing the materials we reviewed, outside of a Privileged Executive session of the Board.

Having said that. I can say what I’ve said all along-
the Freeh Report isn’t worth the paper it’s printed on let alone $8.3 million.

The devil is in the details so to speak.
 
I don’t buy that at all. I’ll bet Anthony and many others of the A9 realize by now that Sandusky is totally innocent.

Anthony, I've heard rumors that Sandusky was long the subject of complaints from 2nd Mile parents. Ya know, the whole "we've heard things over the years but nothing we could sink our teeth into" thing that Schultz was alleged to have said to Mike McQueary's dad, if I recall correctly.

I've also heard rumors that moneyed actors with connections to PSU systematically bought the silence of those parents. Curious facts like the names of many wealthy and influential people being connected to the 2nd Mile's various functioning and honorary boards and PSU requiring victims to waive the right to sue the 2nd Mile in order to receive settlement money from the University suggest those rumors are true.

I don't know what to believe. I do know you that you and many others in Centre County have much more information than I do.

I understand that if you know the rumors I've just described to be true, you most likely wouldn't be a in a position--for multiple reasons--to confirm them on an internet message board or any other public forum any time soon.

However, if you have information debunking those rumors, saying so publicly should be an easy thing for you to do without any risk to yourself or the sources of your information providing the basis for your conclusion those rumors are false.

So, my question as an alumnus to you as an alumni-elected trustee is: are you willing to put your name and your personal credibility behind a statement that the rumors that some individual or individuals connected to PSU or to the 2nd Mile (or both) systematically paid hush money to complaining parents and victims of Sandusky over the years to protect the reputation of the University and/or the reputations of people connected to PSU (including donors who've never had an official or unofficial position with PSU), or the reputations of people connected with the 2nd Mile, are demonstrably false?
 
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That plan was unilaterally changed after Tim met with Joe. The plan originally did not include speaking with Jerry. Joe’s advice was to tell everyone, including Jerry. Tim, believing he had a rehash of the 1998 incident, did not think abuse had occurred. Given the 1998 incident was fully investigated and no charges were lodged against Jerry, Tim made a decision that he likely regrets today. He made a judgment because he believed this was another instance of horseplay.
So, does this then mean that Joe believed that the 2001 incident was reported to DPW. From your comments here, it sounds like Joe's advice was to tell everyone (including DPW) and Tim changed it later.
 
How else would you have Courtney label it? "Suspected horseplay?" "JerBear frolicking in the shower with pre-pubescent boy?"

I understand your point. The label is damning even though it wasn't intended to be. The discussion was preliminary (before Schultz spoke with the Magic Man), exploratory. In his testimony, Courtney characterized Schultz's understanding of the incident as "horseplay," not sexual abuse, which is why he made the recommendation he did.

I hear you but this guy is a lawyer who should know red flag words when he sees them. Perhaps "suspected inappropriate behavior"
 
Not really. In this case, Courtney recommended that the matter be reported to the appropriate authority. Schultz’s file noted as much. Courtney’s testimony on this is also very clear.

That plan was unilaterally changed after Tim met with Joe. The plan originally did not include speaking with Jerry. Joe’s advice was to tell everyone, including Jerry. Tim, believing he had a rehash of the 1998 incident, did not think abuse had occurred. Given the 1998 incident was fully investigated and no charges were lodged against Jerry, Tim made a decision that he likely regrets today. He made a judgment because he believed this was another instance of horseplay.

Many on this board know Tim personally. Do any of you believe he would knowingly allow someone he thought was abusing children to run around just so bad publicity could be avoided?

Anthony, to answer your question, of course not!

I think it's really important to emphasize something else in your post. "Joe's advice was to tell everyone".

Tim wrote, "I am having trouble with going to everyone, but the person involved. I think I would be more comfortable meeting with the person and tell him about the information we received...."

This change did not exclude telling anyone. It merely included Jerry among those to be told. For Freeh's conclusion to be true, Tim's email would have to read, "I am having trouble going to anyone, but the person involved....." This is a critical distinction that, IMO, changes everything!

I would also point out that in Tim's email he said that he had been giving it further thought before he went to Joe. And in his email, he repeatedly said "I". I am having trouble. I am uncomfortable. Not once did he suggest that "Joe is uncomfortable" or that "We are uncomfortable." So I don't think you can even conclude anything about Joe, other than that he affirmed Tim's concerns.

However, as it relates to how "unilateral" this was, I also think it is important to point out that the option to involve DPW was referenced three times.

First by Schultz, after meeting with Joe:
-unless he “confesses” to having a problem, TMC will indicate we need to have DPW review the matter as an independent agency concerned with child welfare

Second, by Tim in his email:
"...If he is cooperative, we would work with him to handle informing the organization. If not, we do not have a choice and will inform the two groups...."

Third, by Spanier:
"....The only downside for us is if our message is not “heard” and acted upon, and we then become vulnerable for not having reported it. But that can be assessed down the road...."

Two and three occur after meeting with Mike. Each reference was in the context of an if/then scenario, and hinged upon what Jerry would or would not do in the future. None had anything to do with what Jerry had already done. So I don't even know how unilateral Tim's decision was.

There's not a single reference to the boy in the shower with Jerry in any of their written communication. Had they believed this boy had been abused, he would have been the elephant in the room. Jerry's future behavior would have had no bearing on their decision to involve DPW.

I'll repeat...and yes, I know Tim pretty well. And no, he's neither confirmed nor refuted my assertion...their focus was prevention! They saw what happened in '98. They also saw how "vulnerable" PSU could have been, had V6's mom filed a civil suit. What happened in 2001 was a wake up call. They understood it was important to prevent future he said/he said situations. There's no evidence at all pointing to their being concerned that the boy Mike saw had been abused.

Anthony, what's the real reason Penn State hasn't challenged the narrative?
 
I hear you but this guy is a lawyer who should know red flag words when he sees them. Perhaps "suspected inappropriate behavior"

Doubt that he expected his records to be the subject of public scrutiny and certainly not the context in which they were.
 
Interesting Anthony.... that in the file of Gary’s request of mr Courtney, there was only a copy of a invoice.... no research no record of the request, just an invoice.

Odd seems there’s no written paper trail by administration at all. Given mr Shultz oversaw police and hr... certainly has to strike the average person as odd at best.
I suspect the change(s) in PSU computer systems accounts for some--if not all--of that.
 
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Doubt it, unless PSU has become more anal than even I can imagine.
My point was that it could be that some of the communication on the topic at the time was via the computer system, and we know that at some point after that PSU changed their system making older material either unavailable or difficult to find/access.

I know, personally, that I have a lot of old financial data and other files from when I was first married on an old Mac--but the hard drive went wonky and you cannot even use some of the old files/programs anyway as the systems have changed so much. I mean, it's been a decade since I used any kind of floppy disk.
 
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My point was that it could be that some of the communication on the topic at the time was via the computer system, and we know that at some point after that PSU changed their system making older material either unavailable or difficult to find/access.

I know, personally, that I have a lot of old financial data and other files from when I was first married on an old Mac--but the hard drive went wonky and you cannot even use some of the old files/programs anyway as the systems have changed so much. I mean, it's been a decade since I used any kind of floppy disk.

Doubt it. This was a preliminary discussion initiated by Schultz in anticipation of his future meeting with Magic Mike. He'd have to be Major Anal to request Courtney to memorialize it (and double or triple the charge in the process). He ostensibly got the guidance he needed to prepare for the meeting. McQuaid Blasko sent PSU a bill, Schultz reviewed and approved it, and that's the extent of it. (I'm assuming that we're not talking about a large amount of billable time here). Happens in my firm, and others I've worked for, all the time.
 
Not really. In this case, Courtney recommended that the matter be reported to the appropriate authority. Schultz’s file noted as much. Courtney’s testimony on this is also very clear.

That plan was unilaterally changed after Tim met with Joe. The plan originally did not include speaking with Jerry. Joe’s advice was to tell everyone, including Jerry. Tim, believing he had a rehash of the 1998 incident, did not think abuse had occurred. Given the 1998 incident was fully investigated and no charges were lodged against Jerry, Tim made a decision that he likely regrets today. He made a judgment because he believed this was another instance of horseplay.

Many on this board know Tim personally. Do any of you believe he would knowingly allow someone he thought was abusing children to run around just so bad publicity could be avoided?

Many on this board know Tim, and 99% of us on this board who know or do not know Tim do not think he would knowingly allow a child abuser to run around. 99% of us also find it preposterous to believe Joe or Graham would. Which is why we remain so furious that the actions of MM, the BOT, Rodney, and to a lesser extent Dr. Barron, plus others who claim to be PSUers, would allow 95% of the rest of the world to believe they did exactly that. But none of us can do anything about it other than get in arguments (using facts an logic) only to be shouted down as JoeBOTS and cultists by people who don't know anything about what happened other than what the aforementioned allowed to be put in the headlines. Is there a plan, any plan, to reverse the narrative? If not for Joe and PSU, how about for the victims of the next Nassar out there, who is laughing all the way to the examining room knowing he is protected because noone took the Clemente report seriously. Who is doing something about it that has a chance to be successful?
 
Not sure you can answer this but, is it true Tim believes JS is innocent?

Anthony, to answer your question, of course not!

I think it's really important to emphasize something else in your post. "Joe's advice was to tell everyone".

Tim wrote, "I am having trouble with going to everyone, but the person involved. I think I would be more comfortable meeting with the person and tell him about the information we received...."

This change did not exclude telling anyone. It merely included Jerry among those to be told. For Freeh's conclusion to be true, Tim's email would have to read, "I am having trouble going to anyone, but the person involved....." This is a critical distinction that, IMO, changes everything!

I would also point out that in Tim's email he said that he had been giving it further thought before he went to Joe. And in his email, he repeatedly said "I". I am having trouble. I am uncomfortable. Not once did he suggest that "Joe is uncomfortable" or that "We are uncomfortable." So I don't think you can even conclude anything about Joe, other than that he affirmed Tim's concerns.

However, as it relates to how "unilateral" this was, I also think it is important to point out that the option to involve DPW was referenced three times.

First by Schultz, after meeting with Joe:
-unless he “confesses” to having a problem, TMC will indicate we need to have DPW review the matter as an independent agency concerned with child welfare

Second, by Tim in his email:
"...If he is cooperative, we would work with him to handle informing the organization. If not, we do not have a choice and will inform the two groups...."

Third, by Spanier:
"....The only downside for us is if our message is not “heard” and acted upon, and we then become vulnerable for not having reported it. But that can be assessed down the road...."

Two and three occur after meeting with Mike. Each reference was in the context of an if/then scenario, and hinged upon what Jerry would or would not do in the future. None had anything to do with what Jerry had already done. So I don't even know how unilateral Tim's decision was.

There's not a single reference to the boy in the shower with Jerry in any of their written communication. Had they believed this boy had been abused, he would have been the elephant in the room. Jerry's future behavior would have had no bearing on their decision to involve DPW.

I'll repeat...and yes, I know Tim pretty well. And no, he's neither confirmed nor refuted my assertion...their focus was prevention! They saw what happened in '98. They also saw how "vulnerable" PSU could have been, had V6's mom filed a civil suit. What happened in 2001 was a wake up call. They understood it was important to prevent future he said/he said situations. There's no evidence at all pointing to their being concerned that the boy Mike saw had been abused.

Anthony, what's the real reason Penn State hasn't challenged the narrative?
 
Many on this board know Tim, and 99% of us on this board who know or do not know Tim do not think he would knowingly allow a child abuser to run around. 99% of us also find it preposterous to believe Joe or Graham would. Which is why we remain so furious that the actions of MM, the BOT, Rodney, and to a lesser extent Dr. Barron, plus others who claim to be PSUers, would allow 95% of the rest of the world to believe they did exactly that. But none of us can do anything about it other than get in arguments (using facts an logic) only to be shouted down as JoeBOTS and cultists by people who don't know anything about what happened other than what the aforementioned allowed to be put in the headlines. Is there a plan, any plan, to reverse the narrative? If not for Joe and PSU, how about for the victims of the next Nassar out there, who is laughing all the way to the examining room knowing he is protected because noone took the Clemente report seriously. Who is doing something about it that has a chance to be successful?

This is why MM's expressed love for JVP rings hollow. Lord help the person who gets in a street fight with MM at his side; MM will be running in the opposite direction while the other person gets his azz beat
 
Let’s be clear.

The entry by Wendell Courtney was his. He has testified that he was not told by Schultz of suspected child abuse. In fact, Courtney testified that he was told of horseplay.

MM was asked if he was pleased with the response by PSU to his report and he said yes.

MM said nothing to anyone else after he met with C/S until he was contacted by the OAG in late 2010.

Dranov was investigated by the state licensing authorities regarding his handling of the report from MM. the licensing authorities determined Dranov, a mandated reporter, handled this matter properly.

The Presentment was untrue. In my view, this was prosecutorial misconduct. This Presentment coupled with the Freeh Report effectively eliminated any hope that C/S/S could receive a fair trial. In fact, we now know that the Jury Comsultant hired by one of the defendants determined that the jury pool had been grossly tainted by these reports to the point that more than 70% of those possible jurists surveyed believed C/S/S has committed a crime.

Our system of justice is unjust. When the ends justify the means as they did in the case of C/S/S you cannot have justice.

I URGE the Board of Trustees to release our report to the public.

Anthony - what’s your degree of confidence that the public will see the report within a reasonable period of time?
 
At some point, I would like to ask him a whole bunch of questions, including that one. For now, I'm steering away from stuff like that. Even if I knew the answer, I'd keep it to myself.
Innocent is perhaps a bridge too far. I'd love to know Tim's thoughts. I don't believe for one moment JS had oral/anal sex with those boys. Too much touching......that could be hard to argue.
 
Anthony - what’s your degree of confidence that the public will see the report within a reasonable period of time?
Print out the report. Go to Starbucks w Barry or somebody and just forget to take it when you leave. Let them figure what to do w it
 
Not sure you can answer this but, is it true Tim believes JS is innocent?

Ziegler says that he was told secondhand that Tim believes Jerry is innocent, likely by Schultz or Spanier. Whereas Graham Spanier and Gary Schultz have told him directly. I have corresponded with Schultz myself know for a fact that he believes Jerry is innocent. As for Spanier, I only have Zieglers word, but I see no reason why he would lie here.
 
Ziegler says that he was told secondhand that Tim believes Jerry is innocent, likely by Schultz or Spanier. Whereas Graham Spanier and Gary Schultz have told him directly. I have corresponded with Schultz myself know for a fact that he believes Jerry is innocent. As for Spanier, I only have Zieglers word, but I see no reason why he would lie here.
I don't think even Zig believes Jerry is innocent of inappropriate touching.
 
Ziegler says that he was told secondhand that Tim believes Jerry is innocent, likely by Schultz or Spanier. Whereas Graham Spanier and Gary Schultz have told him directly. I have corresponded with Schultz myself know for a fact that he believes Jerry is innocent. As for Spanier, I only have Zieglers word, but I see no reason why he would lie here.
So thinking some vics made up stories makes sense, so thinking JS trial was a sham makes sense, thinking Ira went out of his way to cover for TSM makes sense and to think the MM vic 2 story was embellished makes sense but the thought the JS is innocent is a bridge too far for me. Even a vindictive Corbett, Surma et al would not burn down the University, and send a guy away for life for a couple personal grudges makes no sense.
If by innocent you or they mean, showering, touching, etc but no anal or oral sex I could see that.
 
So thinking some vics made up stories makes sense, so thinking JS trial was a sham makes sense, thinking Ira went out of his way to cover for TSM makes sense and to think the MM vic 2 story was embellished makes sense but the thought the JS is innocent is a bridge too far for me. Even a vindictive Corbett, Surma et al would not burn down the University, and send a guy away for life for a couple personal grudges makes no sense.
If by innocent you or they mean, showering, touching, etc but no anal or oral sex I could see that.
Zig usually calls that "innocent of ACTUAL sex"
 
So thinking some vics made up stories makes sense, so thinking JS trial was a sham makes sense, thinking Ira went out of his way to cover for TSM makes sense and to think the MM vic 2 story was embellished makes sense but the thought the JS is innocent is a bridge too far for me. Even a vindictive Corbett, Surma et al would not burn down the University, and send a guy away for life for a couple personal grudges makes no sense.
If by innocent you or they mean, showering, touching, etc but no anal or oral sex I could see that.

If Jerry was merely a creep, there never would have been a trial. That would have been a political loser. They had to make him a monster. Because of the sleaziness exhibited by the OAG, I remain unconvinced Jerry's motives were sexual.
 
Ziegler says that he was told secondhand that Tim believes Jerry is innocent, likely by Schultz or Spanier. Whereas Graham Spanier and Gary Schultz have told him directly. I have corresponded with Schultz myself know for a fact that he believes Jerry is innocent. As for Spanier, I only have Zieglers word, but I see no reason why he would lie here.
How would any of them know if Jerry is innocent?
 
The question should be, how would any of them believe Jerry is innocent?

That's part of the question.

Another part is why would it matter what they think now in 2018, when the trials are all over (except Spanier, who I suppose has appeals) -- but he didn't present a defense at trial, so who cares what he believes?

I know what they hope is the case is that Jerry is innocent.
 
That's part of the question.

Another part is why would it matter what they think now in 2018, when the trials are all over (except Spanier, who I suppose has appeals) -- but he didn't present a defense at trial, so who cares what he believes?

I know what they hope is the case is that Jerry is innocent.

Shouldn't we all hope Jerry is innocent?

As for C/S/S, all that should matter is their response as it relates to what was reported to them. It should have been up to Jack Raykovitz, aka Captain Swimtrunks, to ascertain if Jerry's behavior might have been grooming.
 
Shouldn't we all hope Jerry is innocent?

As for C/S/S, all that should matter is their response as it relates to what was reported to them. It should have been up to Jack Raykovitz, aka Captain Swimtrunks, to ascertain if Jerry's behavior might have been grooming.

That sounds about right.

It's not clear to me what Dr. Jack's responsibility was at the time. I don't know what he was told. I think he should have reported.

I don't know if he had the legal obligation to do so if the child was not ID'd as a TSM member and the incident was not a TSM activity. I assume that 3rd-party hearsay (at least, by the point Tim talked to Jack) about a potentially random, non-TSM kid & a guy who is the founder & figurehead, but not a "fitness Friend," is arguably not their responsibility to report. If JR were smart, he'd have asked his lawyer (was it the same as PSU's lawyer?). He might have been advised to report, just as C/S/S were ... and assumed they already did.

Who knows? So many oopsies & assumptions.
 
Dr Jack all but admitted it was a TSM kid even as recently as the C/S/S trial
 
Ziegler says that he was told secondhand that Tim believes Jerry is innocent, likely by Schultz or Spanier. Whereas Graham Spanier and Gary Schultz have told him directly. I have corresponded with Schultz myself know for a fact that he believes Jerry is innocent. As for Spanier, I only have Zieglers word, but I see no reason why he would lie here.

I would not believe everything Zig says. Spanier's lawyers have instructed him NOT to speak about the issue, so chatting with Zig would certainly be on the No No List.
 
That sounds about right.

It's not clear to me what Dr. Jack's responsibility was at the time. I don't know what he was told. I think he should have reported.

I don't know if he had the legal obligation to do so if the child was not ID'd as a TSM member and the incident was not a TSM activity. I assume that 3rd-party hearsay (at least, by the point Tim talked to Jack) about a potentially random, non-TSM kid & a guy who is the founder & figurehead, but not a "fitness Friend," is arguably not their responsibility to report. If JR were smart, he'd have asked his lawyer (was it the same as PSU's lawyer?). He might have been advised to report, just as C/S/S were ... and assumed they already did.

Who knows? So many oopsies & assumptions.

I know I'm repeating myself, but when PSU officials were informed of inappropriate behavior by a former employee and a boy, unaffiliated with the university, they took measured steps to prevent that behavior going forward. When TSM officials were informed of inappropriate behavior by a current employee and a participant in its programs, they took measured steps to ensure that behavior would continue. Yet Graham Spanier has been in legal hell for 7 years and is fighting a jail sentence, while Jack Raykovitz is getting off Scot free. Every victim came into Sandusky's sphere of influence through TSM. Which man should be held to task for endangering the welfare of children?

Tom Corbett took over $650,000 in campaign contributions from moneyed people and entities with close ties to TSM from 2003 through his run for governor. Furthermore, it is the OAG that has oversight responsibility for entities such as TSM.

It appears obvious that PSU, specifically the football program, was made the scapegoat so as to protect TSM. What I would like Anthony to tell us is why PSU was a willing participant in that deception?
 
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