OT: USA COVID-19 Vaccination Updates

[BobPSU92]

Here is some very useful data. Facts.

New COVID-19 Cases and Hospitalizations Among...

COVID-19 vaccine effectiveness against hospitalizations was stable, but it declined against new infections among adults in New York during May–July 2021.

www.cdc.gov

This is a study of 10 million+ vaccinated individuals from New York state. The data is anlayzed in weekly chunks; the last week being very current, July19-July26, and therefore represents mostly Delta infections.

The key data is in Table 1.

Vaccinated individuals had Covid infections (not hospitalizations) at the rate of 3.9/100,000 person-days.
Unvaxxed had Covid infections at the rate of 21/100,000. Efficacy of vaccine for Delta at 80%.

Vaccinated individuals had Covid hospitalizations at the rate of 0.19/100,000 person-days.
Unvaxxed had Covid hospitalizations at the rate of 1.78/100,000. Efficacy of vaccine for Delta at 95%.

Two points are crystal clear from this data on almost 14 million people.
1) Unvaccinated individuals are keeping the pandemic going.
2) Unvaccinated individuals are keeping hospitals full (corollary--by keeping hospitals full, they are keeping vaccinated individuals from receiving elective but important surgeries, and preventive care (colonoscopies, etc)).

Our great nation thrives on rivalries. North vs. South. Yankees vs. Red Sox. pitt vs. Penn State. Vaxxed vs. Unvaxxed is the latest such rivalry. Just sit back and enjoy the intense competition here, like all the others.

 

[psu_et_vt]

Everything I've read says you're wrong.

Try the numbers
White % of population 61
White % of unvaccinated 66

and stop reading trash

 

[RGWhirly]

Please, please dont listen to this absolute nonsense. "Let the virus run its course" and watch hundreds of thousands of Americans die needlessly is not a strategy we should follow. I'm going to fulfill Godwins hypothesis and say this is a strategy that Hitler would have supported to thin the population of older individuals.

He sounds like WeR.

 

[91Joe95]

They said they are out of ICU beds. They will have to shift to other less than ideal facilities. It will likely mean worse care for those ending up there because of less ideal facilities and less qualified staff.

So they're not turning anyone away, and it's not hard for them to make room. After the past year I'm not surprised. Hospitals have the blueprint down on how to increase capacity when needed.

Now, I'm going to tell you a story, it's anecdotal so view it the way you want. I have a niece who's a nurse in a hospital. All the new hires start out in the ICU as it's very stressful and people tend to burn out quickly. As they get experience they transfer to other departments. Maybe other hospitals do things differently, but her hospital is part of a very large chain here in western PA and I doubt they were interested in reinventing the proverbial wheel when they implemented it. Draw your own conclusions about whether people in the ICU are actually getting the best care or not with the new people.

ICU's in general are almost always filled to capacity. They are designed to operate that way. When additional capacity is needed, say around the holidays, they know how to increase capacity. While infectious patients may get the blame for tipping the numbers, the reality is they still are a minority of ICU cases. There is also a vastly different level of care required for treating an infectious patient vs. say an overdosed gunshot victim handcuffed to their bed, or a serious car accident victim. For an infectious patient you need isolation, and care usually consists of testing, an IV, and maybe a ventilator, nothing terribly difficult or hard to accommodate in another "expanded ICU" part of a hospital.

Again, anecdotal, so make of it what you will.

 

[Cletus11]

Cletus, You do a great job. Thanks, I am 100% in favor of vaccinated. However I do rejsent the absolute hatred and vitriol toward someone leery of getting vaccinated.
.Yes the overwhelming evidence is the vaccines work. However you must admit the message changes constantly and I get the the virus is evolving thing but for folks who don't pay as much attention as you do It easily could be confusing.
. for the 1st 12 months of the pandemic this was primarily a 70+ ears of age and comorbidities issue. If you were you and healthy it truly was like a bad flu. Is it still? i read different reports.
. then like it or not the message was the vax will prevent you from getting it. How mant moths did they trace "breakthrough cases" and how many people in this thread insisted only the unvaccinated were getting the virus? Now we know that isn't true
.what exactly is the truth on antibodies from already having Covid.? I can show you articles that say these antibodies provide better resistance, little or no resistance, and articles that say your response is both better and worse with having Covid and then the shot. And even then one shot or two.
.originally the Dr's were saying get whatever vaccine you could get. then J&J had the clotting issue.. It sounds lie that was in very few cases however the FDA did not rescind the EUA and yet we never hear anything about the J&J. Is it safe isn't it. That one is of particular interest to me because our whole family got the J&J before the clotting issue. Now we feel like we are limbo.
. Just today the UK issued a report saying ht ePfizer is only good for 90 days.
. Add to that the no mask , mask, double mask back to only N95 mask debacle.

For folks who are naturally doubtful the messaging has done nothing to ease peoples doubts. That goes for both years and both administrations.

PS add to that the Wuhan lab leak. At first no way now almost certainly. If this was a manufactured [gain of function] have they built in a quickly mutating feature that will eventually render vaccines ineffective? That is pure speculation but those in the know [Fauci] had to know all along so why didn't he address that at the beginning. What did he not want us to know?

Messaging has been horrible. Flip flopping has been horrible. Politicians lockdowns to only turn around and completely do the opposite of what they say is pathetic. Fauci has shown to be more politician then MD. The data manipulation and lack of transparency by the CDC is downright criminal and wreaks of partisan politics combine with incompetence. Agree on all accounts.

the 90 day UK article was headline porn and basically misleading. The article itself says that Pfizer has shown to lose effectiveness over time against stopping infection with the delta variant. Doesn't give any stats on the exact percent. And openly admits they have not looked on how it does versus hospitalizations. So we can add the media to this circus has shown that they literally will lie and mislead to try and push a narrative and get clicks.

Throw in google analytics where people only ever get to read one side of the equation as google only provides that side of the story (be it anti-vax or be it the other side) and nobody gets a balanced look at things.

 

[onetime1]

Why would a person that has had COIVD get the vaccination?

​

 

[indynittany]

Please, please dont listen to this absolute nonsense. "Let the virus run its course" and watch hundreds of thousands of Americans die needlessly is not a strategy we should follow. I'm going to fulfill Godwins hypothesis and say this is a strategy that Hitler would have supported to thin the population of older individuals.

Hundreds of thousands have already died needlessly because doctors were prevented from providing early treatment just so the jabs could get their EUA. Follow the damn money!

 

[indynittany]

Why would a person that has had COIVD get the vaccination?

​

Bingo!

 

[LaJollaLion]

Why would a person that has had COIVD get the vaccination?

​

Fair question as they have the antibodies. I would ask my Doctor that question, but an online anonymous accountant with no medical background from the Midwest probably knows best? There are recent notes on this online stating it's a good idea to, but again...your Doctor should give you that answer.

 

[roswelllion]

Why would a person that has had COIVD get the vaccination?

​

Interesting. As I said above you can read just about anything about that. I side on the if you have Covid you have sufficient antibodies. If that is true why does the government ever talk about these folks.

 

[onetime1]

Interesting. As I said above you can read just about anything about that. I side on the if you have Covid you have sufficient antibodies. If that is true why does the government ever talk about these folks.

Thank you!

 

[91Joe95]

Try the numbers
White % of population 61
White % of unvaccinated 66

and stop reading trash

Your math is wrong.

 

[roswelllion]

What???
You penalizing California for having more people??? I guess that’s making sense to morons. Maybe you should do the same for Texas and Florida.

Vaccination rates 1 dose (over 18)
California 80.6%
Mississippi 54.8
WV 55.4
Idaho 56.9
Alabama 57.7
Tennessee 58.1
N Dakota 58.6
Louisiana 58.6

Maybe you should check the facts before you run your pie hole

You are the idiot who was using raw numbers and not percentages.earlier when comparing whites to other groups. I just used your numbers to make a point and show you how stupid your argument was. California has 19 million unvaccinated. Those states I mentioned do not add up to that combined. If you need me to show you your earlier posts I will.

 

[91Joe95]

You are the idiot who was using raw numbers and not percentages.earlier when comparing whites to other groups. I just used your numbers to make a point and show you how stupid your argument was. California has 19 million unvaccinated. Those states I mentioned do not add up to that combined. If you need me to show you your earlier posts I will.

Propagandists have a hard time keeping their lies straight.

 

[Cletus11]

Why would a person that has had COIVD get the vaccination?

​

The answer is simple if you believe that the vaccine doesn't have any negative effects. Because getting the vaccine after having covid will only stimulate the antibodies that you have. So either that doesn't help much or actually adds a few more antibodies (or more variation of the antibody) into your system which is beneficial.

So if you believe the vaccine has no 'health' issues associated with it, then it cannot hurt to get the vaccine and could only help. Hence why you would get the vaccine.

But I do think that if you have 'proof' of antibodies in your system from previously being infected with Covid, that should be equal to a vaccine card with respect to places that require vaccination to enter for instance.

 

[knickslions]

Why would a person that has had COIVD get the vaccination?

​

There are many studies that show reinfection is a possibility with Covid. Your immune system during natural infection makes many types of antibodies to all parts of the virus but only a small number is actually protective. With the vaccine the entire response is targeted to the virus's spike protein.

Here is another study that shows unvaccinated people are more than twice as likely to be reinfected with the virus the fully vaccinated people.

 

[knickslions]

There are many studies that show reinfection is a possibility with Covid. Your immune system during natural infection makes many types of antibodies to all parts of the virus but only a small number is actually protective. With the vaccine the entire response is targeted to the virus's spike protein.

Here is another study that shows unvaccinated people are more than twice as likely to be reinfected with the virus the fully vaccinated people.

Reduced Risk of Reinfection with SARS-CoV-2 After COVID-19...

This report describes COVID-19 reinfection among vaccinated and unvaccinated persons in Kentucky.

www.cdc.gov

 

[roswelllion]

There are many studies that show reinfection is a possibility with Covid. Your immune system during natural infection makes many types of antibodies to all parts of the virus but only a small number is actually protective. With the vaccine the entire response is targeted to the virus's spike protein.

Here is another study that shows unvaccinated people are more than twice as likely to be reinfected with the virus the fully vaccinated people.

I don't see the study but does it include those unvaccinated who have already had Covid. I think that is the question.

 

[knickslions]

I don't see the study but does it include those unvaccinated who have already had Covid. I think that is the question.

Sorry left off attachment. Its there now

 

[91Joe95]

The answer is simple if you believe that the vaccine doesn't have any negative effects. Because getting the vaccine after having covid will only stimulate the antibodies that you have. So either that doesn't help much or actually adds a few more antibodies (or more variation of the antibody) into your system which is beneficial.

So if you believe the vaccine has no 'health' issues associated with it, then it cannot hurt to get the vaccine and could only help. Hence why you would get the vaccine.

But I do think that if you have 'proof' of antibodies in your system from previously being infected with Covid, that should be equal to a vaccine card with respect to places that require vaccination to enter for instance.

I wonder if they would allow positive tests as proof of infection, and therefore antibodies.

 

[BobPSU92]

Messaging has been horrible. Flip flopping has been horrible. Politicians lockdowns to only turn around and completely do the opposite of what they say is pathetic. Fauci has shown to be more politician then MD. The data manipulation and lack of transparency by the CDC is downright criminal and wreaks of partisan politics combine with incompetence. Agree on all accounts.

the 90 day UK article was headline porn and basically misleading. The article itself says that Pfizer has shown to lose effectiveness over time against stopping infection with the delta variant. Doesn't give any stats on the exact percent. And openly admits they have not looked on how it does versus hospitalizations. So we can add the media to this circus has shown that they literally will lie and mislead to try and push a narrative and get clicks.

Throw in google analytics where people only ever get to read one side of the equation as google only provides that side of the story (be it anti-vax or be it the other side) and nobody gets a balanced look at things.

I’m sure it’s all just a misunderstanding.

 

[roswelllion]

Thanks for the link.

I looked at the Axios article, as well as the preprint that the Axios (and other) articles are based upon.

I'm not sure how to state this without seeming condescending, so I'll just state it simply. I'm a physician who has spent the past 30 yrs at either federal research institutes or academic medical centers, focused on lab and clinical research. So while I'm not an epidemiologist nor an infectious disease expert, I have a working knowledge of clinical trials and the drug approval process.

Based on the data I've seen (see below), as well as trusted sources (NIH, CDC, Hopkins) it is abundantly clear that the ongoing pandemic is driven by the unvaccinated. Choosing which media sources to listen to is difficult in these days of rampant mis-information. I think you go with respected mainstream sources. Time has proven the fringe sources (hydroxychloroquine is the answer) are usually incorrect. Experts are expert because they have spent years studying the subject. I'm not saying that CDC/NIH are always correct, but I am saying I'd trust them over some DO stating that vaccines magnetize people.

Unvaccinated people seem to fall into three categories:
1) Hardcore non vaxxers--Jenny McCarthy, Kennedy, Hasidic jews, etc.
2) Trump/Fox/ONN followers, who dont want to listen to science or govt experts--spurred on by the right wing media
3) Black people who are concerned that the government is "experimenting on them"-- spurred on by the left wing media

The article cited by Axios is interesting, but has three significant flaws. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.06.21261707v1

1) The authors generated "triplets" that had tested positive for Covid. Each "triplet " consisted of one unvaccinated person, one Moderna vaxxed person, and one Pfizer vaxxed. They controlled for sex, race, state of origin, but not age. This was a bad mistake. Age is well known to be the single most important variable for serious Covid disease.

2) The authors based their analysis on databases of patients within the Mayo system. Patients in the Mayo system who didnt receive a vaccine within the Mayo system were considered unvaccinated. But these people could have received a vaccine at CVS, or a football stadium.

3) The widely quoted 42% figure is based on Table 4. In this table, 3 and 4 people who received the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines, respectively, contracted Covid. Its really difficult to make any broad statements on vaccine efficacy or policy based on, literally, 3 and 4 patients. and FDA

Due to a perfect storm, we are currently in a pandemic of mis-information as well as virus.

My advice is to pay attention to several well-respected, public sources of information. CDC, FDA, NIH officials, experts from academia. And your primary care physician.

I just saw this.
Respectfully Dr You give away you bias. Points 1 and 3 are valid. As to point 2. We know Trump was vaccinated as soon as he was allowed after having Covid. So someone who had Covid AND was given the mono clonal antibodies elected to get vaccinated and he is against the vaccine? As to ONN I have no idea but please show me where Fox was against vaccines. I think you will not find that. What you are likely to find is they are against vaccine mandates feeling it should be a personal choice. big big difference as I am sure you understand. As to believing CDC, NIH, and FDA I have no comment on FDA. As to NIH [no lab, leak] and CDC [masks are better than vaccines] really.? Let's just say we get more unbiased info from Israel and UK than those groups you mention.

 

[lionville]

Why would a person that has had COIVD get the vaccination?

​

It’s the equivalent of wearing 2 condoms when having sex. Double the protection.

 

[Cletus11]

It’s the equivalent of wearing 2 condoms when having sex. Double the protection.

i'd say it is more like your girlfriend is on the pill buy you still wear a condom.

 

[psualt]

i'd say it is more like your girlfriend is on the pill buy you still wear a condom.

or it could be like your scenario but then you castrate yourself to be certain.

 

[SLUPSU]

The answer is simple if you believe that the vaccine doesn't have any negative effects. Because getting the vaccine after having covid will only stimulate the antibodies that you have. So either that doesn't help much or actually adds a few more antibodies (or more variation of the antibody) into your system which is beneficial.

So if you believe the vaccine has no 'health' issues associated with it, then it cannot hurt to get the vaccine and could only help. Hence why you would get the vaccine.

But I do think that if you have 'proof' of antibodies in your system from previously being infected with Covid, that should be equal to a vaccine card with respect to places that require vaccination to enter for instance.

So many are trying to define this as a certain black-white issue, and of course, it's not.

How strong is your natural immunity if you had an asymptomatic alpha case vs a mild or severe case and will those provide similar protection against a delta case?
How does time affect these varying levels of natural protection?
Everything I've read says your protection will improve if you've had covid and then get a vaccine.

 

[psu_et_vt]

Your math is wrong.

Clearly you don’t know math
US Population 328M (Google)

Below is from CDC web site as of 8/18/21
US with at least 1 vaccine dose 199M
US population who identify as white 61%
US population with 1 vaccine who identify as white 58% (of vaccinated population)

% of unvaccinated US population who are white
100*((328*.61-199*.58)/(328-199))=66%

Yeah it’s called MATH and STFU

But where I come from this is called arithmetic

 

[klive]

You know, it really is hard for the administration to put out a coherent and credible message when they are constantly manipulating even basic CDC data on a regular basis.

messaging has been pretty clear, get the damn vaccine had been repeated over and over. I guess all of those comments about reading being hard was actually you complaining about yourself.

 

[psu_et_vt]

messaging has been pretty clear, get the damn vaccine had been repeated over and over. I guess all of those comments about reading being hard was actually you complaining about yourself.

He doesn’t know arithmetic either

 

[klive]

I can see when you are called out for your hypocrisy, you have zero to come back with.

he's actually referring to himself. reading IS hard...for him

 

[Cletus11]

So many are trying to define this as a certain black-white issue, and of course, it's not.

How strong is your natural immunity if you had an asymptomatic alpha case vs a mild or severe case and will those provide similar protection against a delta case?
How does time affect these varying levels of natural protection?
Everything I've read says your protection will improve if you've had covid and then get a vaccine.

those same questions can be asked about the vaccine as well. maybe slightly more uncertainty around the immune response based on the level of covid exposure you had. but the other questions have no better answer with the vaccine then with natural antibodies.

and on the flip side, not like the vaccine is 100% risk free which you are assuming. So if I have natural anti-bodies from previous infection and am a healthy person under the age of 50, then the risk management most likely says the unknown of the vaccine is greater than the unknown of a second much more negative reaction to covid when i already have antibodies, have defeated once, and are a healthy person with a good immune system.

so as you say, it is not black and white and there are instances where I think a vaccine might be the more risky, especially for the case above I just mentioned for a women who is of child bearing age. Not sure a healthy 20 year old women who was already infected with Covid that the least risky scenario going forward is to get the vaccine. Show me the data that says there is zero risk to that person, you cannot nor can anybody and that is a pretty big risk if the vaccine does in fact have some effects on fertility that have not been shown yet. Point is risk management is not always on the side of vaccination.

 

[bdgan]

the fatality curve on that chart for FLorida makes no sense. my bet is that Florida has just not reported those days yet in full and once they do the curve will not look like that anymore. no way they went from 100 to 8 while infection rates are still that high.

Maybe but they aren't reporting o deaths. I guess it's possible that some counties are reporting timely and other counties are not.

One thing that I see is that the CDC is still only showing 361 deaths for children 0-17 years old. So if school age kids are getting it they aren't dying from it.

 

[91Joe95]

Clearly you don’t know math
US Population 328M (Google)

Below is from CDC web site as of 8/18/21
US with at least 1 vaccine dose 199M
US population who identify as white 61%
US population with 1 vaccine who identify as white 58% (of vaccinated population)

% of unvaccinated US population who are white
100*((328*.61-199*.58)/(328-199))=66%

Yeah it’s called MATH and STFU

But where I come from this is called arithmetic

Page 104, ran through the numbers for you. Mine are a combination of 2020 US census data and cdc data. Math is hard. Btw, even your numbers blow away the claim this is a predominantly red state problem.

 

[91Joe95]

messaging has been pretty clear, get the damn vaccine had been repeated over and over. I guess all of those comments about reading being hard was actually you complaining about yourself.

Yes, crystal clear messaging. It must be everyone else's fault for not understanding, said no effective leader ever.

 

[klive]

Yes, crystal clear messaging. It must be everyone else's fault for not understanding, said no effective leader ever.

what part of "get the vaccine" is difficult for anyone, even you, to understand?

 

[91Joe95]

what part of "get the vaccine" is difficult for anyone, even you, to understand?

If you think all the other falsehoods uttered by so called leaders doesn't cause people to question even that simple message, then you don't understand how trust affects effective communication strategies.

 

[tgar]

Bingo!

Just ask Lamar Jackson of the Baltimore Ravens who has had it twice. Sick both times.

 

[klive]

If you think all the other falsehoods uttered by so called leaders doesn't cause people to question even that simple message, then you don't understand how trust affects effective communication strategies.

Yet you continue to carry Trump's jock strap. Talk about hypocrisy. It's very obvious your opinions and thought's are based solely on political affiliation, and nothing else.

 

[tgar]

Why would a person that has had COIVD get the vaccination?

​

Ask Lamar Jackson of the Baltimore Ravens. He had it twice and sick both times.

 

[91Joe95]

Yet you continue to carry Trump's jock strap. Talk about hypocrisy. It's very obvious your opinions and thought's are based solely on political affiliation, and nothing else.

See, you should understand how trust affects messaging after all.