No Reaves for MBB game tonight...
- Thread starter psuguy43
- Start date
I agree with you, Fair.
Was sitting here watching the last 6-8 minutes thinking - I know it's cliche - but the team doesn't seem to know how to win.
Dig down, play hard, play smart. Nope. So many silly mistakes, fouls, bad shots.
I'll admit, I don't know a lot about basketball X's and O's. But they seem to have no continuity.
OL
We lost because this team sucks. Just about every single game they fail to execute and make terrible decisions. If chambers refuses to or hasn't got that cleaned up by now he never will.
I'm a casual fan at best. I feel badly for those die hards who annually invest their time, and often money, in a Groundhog Day program. I honestly don't think any coach can win here.
I'm a casual fan at best. I feel badly for those die hards who annually invest their time, and often money, in a Groundhog Day program. I honestly don't think any coach can win here.
Yep, I'd be one of those fans. My butt is in the seats for every game but I find myself asking the same question every game....how is this team going to soil the sheets tonight....and inevitably they will provide the answer.
You do understand it's more about fouls that are NOT called than the ones that are. Not much different than football, allow offensive holding and defensive pass interference and you control the game. Actually, I don't think you do understand that.
I fully understand but the complaining is pathetic. Calls will always be missed. Refs are human just like the players and coaches. They aren't going to be perfect. That's part of the game. The refs weren't the reason we lost.
Funny how the refs are more "human" for the home team all the time. It's bunk.
The sad thing is during the late stages Carr and Watkins completely over matched Indiana. In the big games it seems we don't see that the earlier stages of the game. Everyone on the board cries about Watkins getting called for touch fouls and having to sit in the first halves. I would like to see Pat adjust the starting lineup to try and take defensive pressure off Watkins in the first half. Why not start Moore with Watkins? The experts on here always criticize Moore.......I see him do plenty of little things that make up for not having the quickest feet. PSU goes through stretches of poor rebounding.....how do we know another big wouldn't help.....we never see it.
If it’s settled upon that no coach can win here, why all the outrage towards chambers? Not directed towards you in particular, Fair. You’re pretty well grounded in the outrage department. But since you’ve made the assumption, I’m curious if others feel the same way.I'm a casual fan at best. I feel badly for those die hards who annually invest their time, and often money, in a Groundhog Day program. I honestly don't think any coach can win here.
Do we think we have the talent and should be in the top half of the B1G? Maybe our expectations are too high. It’s not like Pat is running his mouth talking about dominating the state (and no I’m not saying CJF was running his mouth). And it’s not like we’re paying the guy $5mm a year.
Regarding today’s game, hit a couple of free throws and were not having this discussion. Pat isn’t the one shooting free throws. They’re in every game. It’s not like were getting blown out night in and night out. Not having Reaves definitely didn’t help.
But losing Watkins early for pretty much the entire first half regularly with BS fouls called on him changes the entire dynamic of what they want to do on both ends of the floor. When he comes back in, he has to play soft and with hesitation. Any time someone drives the lane, he essentially steps aside in fear of being whistled for something stupid. In his absence, at least Stevens and Carr tried to play inside.
One thing that’s for certain is that the bench sucks.
I like Chambers and really do believe that if he is let go no one else will do much better. If he continues to show even marginal improvement, I would keep him. For a dozen reasons, Penn State will never be a place where basketball is a championship caliber sport. It's like men's baseball.....an afterthought. Keep Pat and let him plod along. I can see him reaching a point where we get an NIT bid every 3 or 4 years, and an NCAA bid maybe once in 10 years. As a casual fan, I can live with that. Others....not so much. If we get an NIT bid this year I think he stays. No tournament at all and he's gone. My prediction is he will get the bid and stay.
I agree that they probably should keep Pat for one more year with the players he recruited. But no way this team makes the NIT this year. Their only hope is to win the BIG tourney and get an NCAA bid. The NIT ain’t happening, given the OOC schedule and team performance to date.
Unfortunately players that look more athletic don’t necessarily equate to being better basketball players.
Sometimes it looks like they think they’re playing in an intramural game, not a college game. They need to realize that in many of these games the difference between a W and a L comes down to one possession or one possession at each end of the court..... the difference between getting that one extra rebound or loose ball, passing up taking that one bad shot, hitting that front end of a bonus free throw so you can get the second one too.
It’s paying attention to the fundamentals, paying attention to the little things.
Hopefully one day these kids will simply say ENOUGH, we’re tired of losing these winnable games.
Sometimes it looks like they think they’re playing in an intramural game, not a college game. They need to realize that in many of these games the difference between a W and a L comes down to one possession or one possession at each end of the court..... the difference between getting that one extra rebound or loose ball, passing up taking that one bad shot, hitting that front end of a bonus free throw so you can get the second one too.
It’s paying attention to the fundamentals, paying attention to the little things.
Hopefully one day these kids will simply say ENOUGH, we’re tired of losing these winnable games.
Possibly the best thing that can be said for Chambers is that this year might net him the most wins in his stint at Penn State. (He needs 7 more wins so his team needs to play about .500 ball the rest of the way - given that his in-conference record at PSU is .274, that in and of itself would be a tremendous improvement!)
It really is Groundhog Day. I just don't understand the fear of getting worse by making a coaching change...Penn State is currently tied for 6th in conference - arguably barely in the top ten of the conference. The losses to Texas A&M and NC State now look bad as A&M is 0-4 and solidly in last place in the SEC, and NC State is in the ACC standings about where PSU is in the B1G.
To me the idea should be to set expectations high and do everything possible to meet those expectations. All of that starts with the AD. Keep Chambers and you are essentially saying that mediocrity (or worse) is OK. At least a coaching change would offer some hope!
It really is Groundhog Day. I just don't understand the fear of getting worse by making a coaching change...Penn State is currently tied for 6th in conference - arguably barely in the top ten of the conference. The losses to Texas A&M and NC State now look bad as A&M is 0-4 and solidly in last place in the SEC, and NC State is in the ACC standings about where PSU is in the B1G.
To me the idea should be to set expectations high and do everything possible to meet those expectations. All of that starts with the AD. Keep Chambers and you are essentially saying that mediocrity (or worse) is OK. At least a coaching change would offer some hope!
The problem I have with Pat is the team doesn't play to their strengths and it seems as if their is no plan of what they should be doing on offense. It seems obvious to me that Watkins has a HUGE advantage down low against most everyone I have seen this year and they refuse to run the offense through him. I know he gets in foul trouble, but when he is on the court they don't use him enough in the post. It seems Carr is always driving and throwing up tough shots and they don't even attempt an actual offense. Players don't move to find open court when double teams come.
Pat has done a fantastic job getting the players here, but it looks like the whole staff is completely lost with how to coach the actual game and use the players they have t their disposal.
Pat has done a fantastic job getting the players here, but it looks like the whole staff is completely lost with how to coach the actual game and use the players they have t their disposal.
BINGO! You see the offensive sets IU ran last night.....pick & roll, back cuts to the basket.......you see how many easy layups they got of those offensive sets.......THAT IS AN OFFENSE! Chambers continues to allow them to play pickup basketball and it simply doesn't work at this level. I hesitate to say this because i will get killed here, but i don't believe Carr is a good PG. He is a great player, but he is not a PG.....he seems to have a really difficult time creating his own shot and doesn't get others involved in the offense. He continuously stands at the top of the key dribbling around 2-3 guys and then throwing up an off balance jumper. He doesn't seem to have the ability or the "want to" to penetrate the lane and dish to open players. Wheeler is the exact opposite....when he is in the game it seems as though we get some easy drop offs for Watkins and Stevens based solely on his ability to penetrate the lane. Again, it's pick up basketball.......most times there doesn't seem to be any resemblance of an actual offense and i think it starts with Chambers allowing Carr to try and do everything himself.
These kids don't realize that they can't get by on their athletic ability alone at this level and it doesn't seem as though Chambers has done anything to help them realize that. They are good and their pure athletic ability carried them through high school, but it isn't going to work in College......they have to run an offense and i just don't see it.
Not calling you out specifically because many make this kind of an argument but we are way past the point for arguments like this. Because its something little every game. If we are in every game, maybe a few better coaching moves is the difference between a win and a loss. At a certain point, isn't the coach ultimately responsible?
No, Pat didn't miss the free throws. And Nick Saban didn't make the game-winning throw the other night. But he recruited the kid who did. He made the gutsy call to play the kid when many other coaches may have balked. He hired and strategized with the OC who made the play call, and he put his team in a position to win. OK, not fair to compare Pat to Nick, but Pat rarely seems to pull the right strings. Either the guys he recruits aren't good enough or he isn't good enough. But, we are mediocre and all roads lead back to Pat. I desperately wanted him to be successful, but he isn't. Sandy can ignore this or make a change.
Wait the NC State loss looks bad? You realize they literally just beat Duke last week right? lol
Agreed with both of you. Carr is not sharing the ball the way he needs to as the point guard and the ball is always in his hands. If he was making most of those shots in the lane or getting to the line, I'd have no issue with what he's doing but he's not. Watkins was a matchup nightmare for Indiana and we just couldn't commit to getting the ball to him. They could've played through him all night accumulating fouls on Indiana, attracting double teams where if Watkins can see it we can get wide open looks and if left one on one, I like Watkins' chances. Our offense relies on guys making challenged shots and we have guys that can do that, but imagine how much better they can be offensively if they get more unchallenged shots. That's what good offenses do. Get open looks. If those shots don't fall, I don't have an issue with it. When/if Reaves gets back, he needs to be a bigger part of the offense. He's improved his shooting and when he gets in the lane, he's looking to drop it off to Watkins for easy dunks.
This team is too talented to repeat last year and at this point, they aren't as good as last year's team. It falls on Chambers. These first 5 conference games were all winnable. None were against the top tier teams in the conference and we won 2 out of 5. This is the easy part of the schedule.
The "we're in games" just not winning them is old. Come up with something else. In the Wisconsin game, we trailed by 17. Last night we were down double figures. At NC State we were down double figures. Vs A&M down 17. We scored 8 points in the last 6 minutes vs Maryland. We have long horrid stretches of basketball against anyone with a pulse. We also have some really good stretches which is why it's so frustrating. Pat has to figure it out. Being worse this year isn't acceptable. As for the worry about losing the "Philly pipeline" that Pat created.. who the heck is going to come if these guys don't win? There are coaches that could win with this group. 68 teams make the NCAA tournament every year. There's no reason we can't be in the mix most years. Some of you make it sound the same as making the 4 team college football playoff.. 68 teams every year.. and we can't even come close to the bubble?
Respectfully, great high school football players fight to go to Alabama. Great high school basketball players only go to Penn State if they are playing for the other 13 schools in the conference.
68 teams is a bit misleading. There are 32 automatic bids to conference winners. That leaves 36 at large bids and that is a tough nut to crack with so many quality teams. In the BigTen, we are the Indiana football equivalent. Indiana has 2 football conference titles in their history, the last in 1967 (50 years ago). They have a total of 11 bowl appearances with 3 wins. This past season they were 5-7. No matter what they do, they cannot put together a winning football program. On the other hand, they are a blue-blood in basketball. We are the reverse. We will never win consistently in basketball, no matter what we do. For us, football is king and it shall always be so.
We used to make it on occasion. There's no excuse for this long of a drought under 1 coach--none
We made the tournament in 1991, 1996, 2001 & 2011--haven't even reached the NIT under Chambers...that's not acceptable. We made the NIT in 90, 92, 95, 98, 2000, 06, 09....so the previous long streak since the 90s had been 5 years. Dunn & DeChellis had better winning percentages in the Big Ten. Dunn & DeChellis. Parkhill, Dunn & DeChellis all reached the NCAAs. Dunn did it twice in 8 years.
Respectfully, I just don’t think these players are as good (or as great as they are occasionally referred to) as many posters here have labeled them.
The expectations for this team have been unrealistic since before the season started. If they can get to 9-9, win a Big 10(14) tournament game or two and get an NIT bid, it would be a major improvement and a step in the right direction.
I’ll use my golf analogy. The guy that looks great at the range pounding the ball 325 yds down the middle time after time isn’t necessarily a great golfer.....he just looks like he might be. Get him on the golf course, he might not even be a good golfer.
The expectations for this team have been unrealistic since before the season started. If they can get to 9-9, win a Big 10(14) tournament game or two and get an NIT bid, it would be a major improvement and a step in the right direction.
I’ll use my golf analogy. The guy that looks great at the range pounding the ball 325 yds down the middle time after time isn’t necessarily a great golfer.....he just looks like he might be. Get him on the golf course, he might not even be a good golfer.
NCSU and A&M aren't bad losses...they were simply opportunities for meaningful non-conference wins and we came up short against teams that are far from elite.
I still think Texas A&M is pretty close to elite this season (though they've gone into a funk the past two weeks).
NC State on the other hand is one of many missed opportunities this season.
From a "pure" talent standpoint, they are very good (at least the starting 5). But doing the little things (and 40 minutes of effort ) along with meshing together has been an issue in close games.
On occasion? More like on rare occasion. We have 9 appearances in our history, and only 4 bids in the past 53 years... 1991... 1996... 2001... 2011. No coach on earth will take us to the promised land.
Expectations were to beat more than one top 100 team by now.. we started 3-2 last season in conference with a win vs Michigan State where we looked like we had a future. This team doesn't look like that at all. Just want to see SOME progress.. these look like the games where we had DJ Newbill and a bunch of stiffs. Talent isn't top 10 or top 20 talent but it's good enough to be in the upper middle of the BIG this year.
FWIW, we'd be about a 5 point favorite on a neutral court tomorrow over last year's team. It's not an issue with the team improving or talent, it's an issue with winning the games that are "competitive".
Most PSU teams don't make it to 1/10 without being blown out once, but at the same time, we haven't won a single game this year where at any point in the game, we were expected to lose (based on Pomeroy's stuff).
No one is asking to be in the tournament on a yearly or near yearly basis. We're asking to be decent.
And I acknowledged that it wasn't a fair comparison. But one of the arguments that I hear for keeping Pat is that he (and evidently he alone) can pull talent from Philly. If the talent he's getting isn't good enough then his "strength" isn't much of a strength. We can debate the level of PSU's talent, but do you think he gets the most from that talent? I don't see it. Most people predicted OSU was be an also-ran this season in BB but they've already put together some quality wins. I just refuse to believe that this is the ceiling for PSU BB.
Becoming increasingly worried that Pat is losing control of the team and they don't listen to him much.
Rewatched most of the game again this afternoon and one little thing jumped out at my (and sorry to single out one player)...Tony Carr's effort on trying to get an offensive rebound when our guys are at the line. If anyone still has the game on tape, go to 3:35 of the 2nd with the Watkins FT and 1:28 of the 2nd when Stevens was at the line. I've literally never seen a player give less effort when on the block on a FT attempt. Either he's completely gassed, or he doesn't understand the importance of every single possession/loose ball/rebound in a game like this, and it's a problem that needs to be addressed either way. And it's certainly not just him, since it's been a pet peeve for several seasons now how few offensive rebounds we get on our own missed FTs vs. how often we give them up to our opponents. This was just a GLARING example of it on multiple occasions last night.
How many players do you see that actually follow their shot and get an easy rebound? Very very few. But the rebounds are there for the taking.
Instead a player (especially shooting a three point shot) will “pose” so he can grandstand (on the rare occasion he actually hits the shot).
Instead a player (especially shooting a three point shot) will “pose” so he can grandstand (on the rare occasion he actually hits the shot).
