Lamont Wade now listed as a Safety; Parsons will be #11
- Thread starter Judge Smails
- Start date
More food for thought on the Wade move to Safety by 247:
https://247sports.com/college/penn-...ont-Wades-position-change-to-safety-115015022
This is about imbalanced depth in the secondary
This is the most logical, immediate conclusion to reach. Penn State naturally has concerns about who will fill its starting safety positions. There's time, yes, to figure all that out, and the staff will. There's also serious reason to wonder and perhaps worry.
Neither Nick Scott nor Ayron Monroe managed to much inspire confidence last season for what the future might hold. Part of that isn't their fault. Opportunities were often limited to one meaningful drive per game and garbage time, with the staff deploying Troy Apke for more snaps than any other defender and a soon-to-be pro, Marcus Allen, standing next to him.
Still, over the combined 382 defensive snaps they did take, Scott and Monroe registered the two worst pass coverage grades of all Penn State defensive backs in 2017, per PFF. Their current competition includes rising redshirt freshman Jonathan Sutherland and Garrett Taylor. No combination of candidates seems ideal at this stage or likely to overcome the issue of inexperience. But by introducing Wade into the mix, after he played 22 percent of all defensive snaps as a freshman, the Lions now possess a few more options and a better chance of hitting on one of those potential pairs.
Meanwhile, despite losing two cornerbacks to the NFL, the Lions should again be loaded at the position. John Reid has returned from a significant knee injury after establishing himself as the team's top cornerback in 2016. Amani Oruwariye received All-Big Ten second team recognition last year. Freshman Tariq Castro-Fields earned the trust of the coaching staff from the get-go and figures to take another step. Zech McPhearson quietly played more than 10 percent of all defensive snaps in 2017 and should be a capable back-up nickel back. Jabari Butler can fly, and freshmen Donovan Johnson, D.J. Brown and Trent Gordon could heat up the position competition.
Bottom line: the Lions borrowed from the richest region of their depth chart to bolster their poorest. Smart.
Castro-Fields separated himself last season
By most basic measures, Castro-Fields and Wade enjoyed similar freshman campaigns.
Each broke up three passes and forced a fumble. Both played between 22 and 25 percent of all defensive snaps. Their roles could aptly and accurately be described as back-up cornerbacks with larger roles on special teams.
Digging deeper, we find the similarities end. I mentioned the trust Castro-Fields earned, which is really priority No. 1 and the world's best compliment for young corners. The coaches' faith revealed itself in Penn State's biggest games: at Ohio State, at Michigan State and versus Washington in the Fiesta Bowl.
During those games, Castro-Fields played a combined 37 defensive snaps. Wade? Only 11.
For the season, Castro-Fields also earned the fourth-best coverage grade from PFF among Penn State defensive backs. Wade's grade ranked in the bottom 10 ... of all defenders. Their overall marks (2.8 to -0.4) also differed greatly. These grades are to be taken with a grain of salt, of course.
All that even aside, it's a difficult argument to make, whether you judged every play or checked in for just a few, that the 6-foot-1 Castro-Fields doesn't offer a superior option at outside corner.
And this part is key, because Reid is all but a lock to reassume nickel duties when the Lions dip into their subpackages, duties he carried out in 2016 and those Grant Haley executed last season once Reid went down. In this case, the next cornerback to come off the bench will fill an outside role. Based on their play to date, that corner ought to be Castro-Fields, not Wade, who otherwise could make a fine nickel back.
There was always a chance Wade could move
Rumblings about Wade potentially playing safety existed during his recruitment and spilled over into spring practice a year ago, a time when he quelled them by crushing it at corner. There's no question Wade's move is tied to the circumstances of Penn State's depth chart, though similarly this is not out of the blue. Wade was always willing and capable to try safety.
How capable and how soon? We'll see.
Wade could shore up a subtle weakness
Beginning with the Lions' visit to Iowa, Apke saw an uptick in targets when he was in man coverage.
The strategy made sense. Penn State plays plenty of Cover 1, which will require one of its safeties to defend 1-on-1. Apke was a first-year starter who had been victimized in limited action in 2016. And when Haley and Campbell are blanketing your other options, best to focus your passing attention elsewhere.
Later, it was Michigan State scoring its first touchdown of a 27-24 win on a corner route that beat Apke in the tight red zone. Sometimes, you simply get beat and must simply credit the offense. This was true against the Spartans (Lewerke was out of his mind that day), but nonetheless in Apke's case there was a trend.
Should Wade replace him, the former corner could snap this pattern. He's got the frame and quickness to handle slot receivers. Most of his coverage snaps in 2017 occurred at nickel back. Covering these receivers would be old hat for Penn State's newest safety.
Further, though Wade is listed at 5-9, 196 on the PSU roster, he is one of the Nittany Lions' more physical defensive backs. He had 31 tackles last year, with nine of them coming on special teams. Only 11 Nittany Lions logged more stops than Wade did last fall.
Getting the four best on the field
Setting aside the minutiae and theorizing for a minute, Wade's switch to safety could very well boil down to the simplest tactic in sports: putting your best out there. Penn State's top four defensive backs arguably are all cornerbacks, making it an impossibility that all four, or even three, could play at once. Unless, of course, one moves to safety.
Like one just did.
https://247sports.com/college/penn-...ont-Wades-position-change-to-safety-115015022
This is about imbalanced depth in the secondary
This is the most logical, immediate conclusion to reach. Penn State naturally has concerns about who will fill its starting safety positions. There's time, yes, to figure all that out, and the staff will. There's also serious reason to wonder and perhaps worry.
Neither Nick Scott nor Ayron Monroe managed to much inspire confidence last season for what the future might hold. Part of that isn't their fault. Opportunities were often limited to one meaningful drive per game and garbage time, with the staff deploying Troy Apke for more snaps than any other defender and a soon-to-be pro, Marcus Allen, standing next to him.
Still, over the combined 382 defensive snaps they did take, Scott and Monroe registered the two worst pass coverage grades of all Penn State defensive backs in 2017, per PFF. Their current competition includes rising redshirt freshman Jonathan Sutherland and Garrett Taylor. No combination of candidates seems ideal at this stage or likely to overcome the issue of inexperience. But by introducing Wade into the mix, after he played 22 percent of all defensive snaps as a freshman, the Lions now possess a few more options and a better chance of hitting on one of those potential pairs.
Meanwhile, despite losing two cornerbacks to the NFL, the Lions should again be loaded at the position. John Reid has returned from a significant knee injury after establishing himself as the team's top cornerback in 2016. Amani Oruwariye received All-Big Ten second team recognition last year. Freshman Tariq Castro-Fields earned the trust of the coaching staff from the get-go and figures to take another step. Zech McPhearson quietly played more than 10 percent of all defensive snaps in 2017 and should be a capable back-up nickel back. Jabari Butler can fly, and freshmen Donovan Johnson, D.J. Brown and Trent Gordon could heat up the position competition.
Bottom line: the Lions borrowed from the richest region of their depth chart to bolster their poorest. Smart.
Castro-Fields separated himself last season
By most basic measures, Castro-Fields and Wade enjoyed similar freshman campaigns.
Each broke up three passes and forced a fumble. Both played between 22 and 25 percent of all defensive snaps. Their roles could aptly and accurately be described as back-up cornerbacks with larger roles on special teams.
Digging deeper, we find the similarities end. I mentioned the trust Castro-Fields earned, which is really priority No. 1 and the world's best compliment for young corners. The coaches' faith revealed itself in Penn State's biggest games: at Ohio State, at Michigan State and versus Washington in the Fiesta Bowl.
During those games, Castro-Fields played a combined 37 defensive snaps. Wade? Only 11.
For the season, Castro-Fields also earned the fourth-best coverage grade from PFF among Penn State defensive backs. Wade's grade ranked in the bottom 10 ... of all defenders. Their overall marks (2.8 to -0.4) also differed greatly. These grades are to be taken with a grain of salt, of course.
All that even aside, it's a difficult argument to make, whether you judged every play or checked in for just a few, that the 6-foot-1 Castro-Fields doesn't offer a superior option at outside corner.
And this part is key, because Reid is all but a lock to reassume nickel duties when the Lions dip into their subpackages, duties he carried out in 2016 and those Grant Haley executed last season once Reid went down. In this case, the next cornerback to come off the bench will fill an outside role. Based on their play to date, that corner ought to be Castro-Fields, not Wade, who otherwise could make a fine nickel back.
There was always a chance Wade could move
Rumblings about Wade potentially playing safety existed during his recruitment and spilled over into spring practice a year ago, a time when he quelled them by crushing it at corner. There's no question Wade's move is tied to the circumstances of Penn State's depth chart, though similarly this is not out of the blue. Wade was always willing and capable to try safety.
How capable and how soon? We'll see.
Wade could shore up a subtle weakness
Beginning with the Lions' visit to Iowa, Apke saw an uptick in targets when he was in man coverage.
The strategy made sense. Penn State plays plenty of Cover 1, which will require one of its safeties to defend 1-on-1. Apke was a first-year starter who had been victimized in limited action in 2016. And when Haley and Campbell are blanketing your other options, best to focus your passing attention elsewhere.
Later, it was Michigan State scoring its first touchdown of a 27-24 win on a corner route that beat Apke in the tight red zone. Sometimes, you simply get beat and must simply credit the offense. This was true against the Spartans (Lewerke was out of his mind that day), but nonetheless in Apke's case there was a trend.
Should Wade replace him, the former corner could snap this pattern. He's got the frame and quickness to handle slot receivers. Most of his coverage snaps in 2017 occurred at nickel back. Covering these receivers would be old hat for Penn State's newest safety.
Further, though Wade is listed at 5-9, 196 on the PSU roster, he is one of the Nittany Lions' more physical defensive backs. He had 31 tackles last year, with nine of them coming on special teams. Only 11 Nittany Lions logged more stops than Wade did last fall.
Getting the four best on the field
Setting aside the minutiae and theorizing for a minute, Wade's switch to safety could very well boil down to the simplest tactic in sports: putting your best out there. Penn State's top four defensive backs arguably are all cornerbacks, making it an impossibility that all four, or even three, could play at once. Unless, of course, one moves to safety.
Like one just did.
A
anon_xdc8rmuek44eq
Guest
There you go. Go to the link and watch the gifs. More man coverage. Nick Scott in the box to help out a green linebacking crew. Wade can cover whereas Apke...not so much. We will focus on pressure and play single-high man.
Will playing Scott in the box really help a green LB unit? The LB unit will have about as much meaningful playing time on D as Scott.
Calahan is awesome.
Just reviewing, I wonder is the staff is a little concerned about Wade's "Length". At 5-9, that is a small-ish CB. As CB's seem to, more and more, get their arm in there on long passes, 5-9 may be an issue as "longer" CB's emerge on the roster. Amani is 6-1, TCF is 6-0, Minor 6-1. Even a 5-11 CB would seem to have 3 inches of greater reach (2 taller and an inch in arm length). With the number of passes that are broken up by a fingertip, that could be an issue
Last edited:
I was commenting on the fact that Scott has limited experience. I do agree that farmer has significant playing time and Brown to a lesser extent.
From what I have seen of Wade in pads and in the weight room he is super thick for a DB (barrel chest, thick neck, tree trunk legs), and not really as long in the arms as some of the bigger DB's we have. But Wade is a SUPERIOR athlete. If you watch his H.S. highlights you see how strong he was then, breaking tackles, bouncing off of bigger players with ease, and providing thumping hits on defense. Wade was rated as the #5 CB in the country by 247 coming out of H.S. He showed his tackling ability on special teams last year as well as his playing time at CB.
As you said, CJF ans Smith are recruiting longer CB's that may match up better against bigger WR's than Wade does. But Wade has been the short kid his whole life. He made an accounting of his abilities on the camp circuit (where he earned a 5th star), did well in limited playing time last year (although maybe not quite as well apparently as Castro-Fields), and I'm betting he makes some spectacular plays in coverage during his career as a DB at PSU. In addition to using that thick, strong physique to thump WR's, RB's and QB's all over the field.....
Last edited:
Yep, Young would have been the competion of a full secondary in the 2018 class. But as far as performance at DB, I believe Wade will be every bit as good at Safety as Young would have been..... And CJF will continue to stockpile Safety/DB talent in 2019 and 2020.
I'm really looking forward to getting a glimpse of the new look secondary players at the B/W game. Wade, Sutherland, Humphries, Petrishen and Taylor at Safety. And McPhearson, Castro-Fields, Gordon, Brown and Johnson at CB.
Agree....but at the end of the day, he's still 5-9. In high school, and even at the all star games, he isn't gong against guys like Juwan Johnson, Irv Charles, Spary's Davis Felton, tOSU's Austin Mack or UM's Kekoa Crawford/DP Jones. All of these kids are 6-2+ which is at least a five inch reach advantage over Wade.
All that being said, moving to S, for all of the reasons you and I give on body type, makes complete sense. BTW, Troy Polamalu was 5-10 200 lbs.
I obviously get your point. IF YOU ARE IN GOOD POSITION, the length helps. But getting in good position, being great in coverage, is a bigger priority.
And Wade did go against the best, biggest competition on the camp circuit, and did very well. That is why he was the top rated recruit in the 2017 class. At the same height (likely) as he is now.
Yep, Troy P. could cover, but he was a BIG hitter. I really believe Wade will cover at least as well at the college level as Troy did as an NFL player. Those here that question Wade's durability must not have seen pictures of him in the weight room.....
Last edited:
Agree....but if you are in position, you are better if you are 6-1 (and if you are not in position too). In other words, size matters. If you are 5-9, you are not going to play left tackle or center for the lakers. At some point, all other things being equal, it is better to be 6-1 than 5-9. If you've got 6-1 kids that can cover, close, blitz and jam WR's just as good as someone who is 5-9, you've got a better CB.
Reid really isn't that big either. And he's pretty good....
The kid from Michigan that flipped from PSU to UM was their best cover CB in the game against us. He's pretty short as well.... Lavert Hill ?
Lots of great college CB's 5'10" and under. Harder time for them in the NFL. They are usually not 1st round picks. But they sometimes play for MNC's, and that's what CJF is going for....
Agree....never said he couldn't be successful at 5-9. But when you look at your stable of DB's and you've got kids at 6-1 that can cover as well as one that is 5-9...and that 5-9 kid has the build to hit like a S. It makes complete sense.
Reid is going to be a Sr. so it would be harder to move him, but who knows.
I was not suggesting moving Reid. Great cover CB's that can play man are what CJF is looking for.
But the bottom line is how a CB can make plays. Defend WR's. There are tall CB's that can run but do not make plays. If a CB can defend WR's it really does not matter how tall he is. Plenty of NFL CB's are not 6' tall.
Some of the first comments were critical of Wade's height as if it would keep him from being a hard hitting Safety. He is built like a truck. Small, yes. But thick and powerful. Can't wait to see him compete at Safety.
I understand and for the most part, agree. Where I do disagree is ton height. Probably more accurate to say "length". If you cover the same, a taller CB simply covers more area. If you are covering Juwan Jones, good luck on a well thrown fade if you are 5-9. A six inch window becomes a ten inch window between Wade and Fields.
i suspect the staff feels that there is little difference between several CB's and since we are thin at S, Wade was moved. I also feel like Wade is a better "ball hawk", something we've lacked at S for several years (a S that gets a lot of INTs).
If you cover the same, a faster CB covers more area. Faster and quicker make up much more ground than length, which amounts to just a few inches. Didn't Wade run a pretty outstanding 40 last year?
I don't believe this move is an indication of any evaluations across the CB depth. It's about getting the best players on the field. I hesitate to say the best 11 on defense because it's really much more than that with all the packages and the depth that is required to excel for a complete season as a defense. It's about the depth chart and packages, in addition to getting the starting guys. I just believe Wade is a "player", and that CJF feels he can help the defense best by playing Safety.
Wade is also physically ahead of many of his CB classmates such as Brown. If I had to pick a player that is built most like Saquon on this squad, I'd pick Wade. For all we know Brown will develop into a shut down CB. But I believe Wade is further along at this point....
But for all we know CJF could move him back to CB after Spring practice. My $ is on Wade playing Safety in 2018 though....
http://www.mcall.com/sports/mc-penn-state-lamont-wade-turning-heads-0319-20170319-story.html
UNIVERSITY PARK — Early enrollee defensive back Lamont Wade is "a real intriguing guy" in the eyes of Penn State strength coach Dwight Galt after a rapidly productive winter.
Wade, the five-star recruit who'll compete for playing time as a freshman at cornerback or safety, did not have an adequate training background, his strength coach said.
"He came in and we had to back off and teach him a little bit," Galt said on Friday, Penn State's final "Max Out" day of winter workouts. "But talk about someone who's a quick learner, big heart, great work ethic, and he just exploded."
The Clairton graduate bench pressed 325 pounds on Tuesday, second-best among Penn State cornerbacks. He managed only 255 pounds when he arrived on campus.
Wade also struggled to power clean 185 pounds in the first two or three weeks, but finished out at 300 pounds Wednesday.
And in the 40-yard dash, Wade posted a run of 4.58 seconds at the start of winter. (i.e. last year's winter workouts)
"His technique was kind of shoddy," Galt recalled, "and I looked at him, and I saw that fire."
Wade ran 4.40 on Monday.
"We had a really good speed cycle," Galt said. "He embraced it, paid attention, worked hard at it and really got some good gains."
Certainly there is a benefit for being as tall as or reasonably close to the height of the WR that you are covering. That being said, I think that it's better to have a short DB that is able to cover tightly, than it is to have a long DB that gets beat. The short DB may still give the QB a chance to get the ball in over his outstretched hands, but the height of a player won't limit his ability to tackle the receiver or break up the pass when the balls is being brought into the body.
Also, I have a feeling that Wade would have more opportunities to make defensive plays in space at Safety, than he would be able to at CB. I think a stout 5' 9" DB that is willing to take on a big receiver or TE coming across the middle is a good thing to have.
OK...but the trend in WR is not toward really fast guys but toward guys that are 6-2 to 6-4. There is a reason why Mike Gesicki was a good receiver and it wasn't his speed and it wasn't his strength. I think it is also clear that PSU's WR are as much about body positioning and point of reception than being open (the dreaded 50/50 ball.
I don't know if Wade is any fast then the other guys. And quickness is probably more important than strait line speed. I see the NFL scouts often talk about a CB's hips. I am not saying Wade would be a bad CB. I am saying, given the mix of kids we have in the secondary, it looks like length is being given may be given more emphasis than a a 40 yard dash time.
That's the point. He doesn't need to be 6'1". He was a 5 star recruit at the height he is right now for a reason.
He can cover, and make plays!
And he is strong and can tackle!
He's also a pretty good RB.......
Five star in high school may or may not translate. Again, I am not saying Wade would never have been a good CB, just that length may have played a part in the decision to move him to S.
Saying "five star in high school" is bizare.
He was a five star CB recruit projected as a college player. At CB. Any five star recruit cold end up as a bust. Time will tell.
When you get on CJF's staff, or take over for CJF, go out and recruit a bunch of 2 star, 6'5" CB's and see how many games you win!!!
Last edited:
jesus F. Christ...how many times do I have to say that I never said or implied Wade would be a bad CB? There are just as many three star kids I can show that are in the NFL as five star kids that don't pan out. the point is, the staff has a handful of prospects at CB...they chose to move Wade and leave others at CB. I simply stated that being 5-9, and having less reach, could have been a decision point.
Well that and the staff has shown a preference for longer CB's when possible. His speed and ball skills are fine...move to safety makes sense to me as they can use his talents in many ways there.
Don't have a heart attack!!
You were trying to make generalizations that you don't have evidence to prove are true. Quotes from your posts in this thread:
"even at the all star games, he isn't gong against guys like Juwan Johnson, Irv Charles, Spary's Davis Felton, tOSU's Austin Mack or UM's Kekoa Crawford/DP Jones"
"I am not sure that is the case (Wade being faster)"
"i suspect the staff feels that there is little difference between several CB's"
"given the mix of kids we have in the secondary, it looks like length is being given may be given more emphasis than a a 40 yard dash time"
"Five star in high school may or may not translate."
About all we know it that CJF wants to prepare Wade to play some Safety. We don't even know if the move is permanent. And we don't know if Wade may play CB in some situations even if he becomes mainly a Safety.
We do know that CJF is trying to get the best players on the field, and that Wade is a thick, tough, fast DB. Highly recruited and talented, that MAY be a better Safety than CB.... which is interesting given that he was the #5 rated CB recruit coming out of H.S. And yes, we know that Wade is shorter than most of the other CB's on the roster.... And that there seems to be more DB talent on the current PSU roster than there has been in a long time.............
And we know that Wade is not much smaller in length than Reid, who is expected to anchor the PSU CB position in 2018 !!!
Last edited:
Mark my words , even throughout all this discussion I am not convinced. Wade is to short to play this position. Have you ever heard the words , "Beaten over the top?" This current deployment of Wade may allow for this to ring true to often this upcoming season.
A
anon_xdc8rmuek44eq
Guest
no, you are making stuff up and putting words in my mouth. I never said Wade wouldn't be a good CB. I said we've got a lot of good CBs and that Wade's height is a challenge he'd have to overcome. But at S, height is not as big of a disadvantage.
but believe what you want to believe.
I am out of the conversation with you.
It sounds like he tried to stay with 23 but since it was taken, Arrington suggested 11. http://www.pennlive.com/pennstatefo...cah_parsons_arrington.html#incart_river_index
Getty Images
CB: Nickell Robey-Coleman, Buffalo Bills: 5-8, 165 pounds
In Week 5, the Bills' slot corner earned AFC Defensive Player of the Week honors for his two-interception performance against the Rams, one of which he returned for the go-ahead touchdown.
Tom Szczerbowski Getty Images
FS: Tyrann Mathieu, Arizona Cardinals: 5-9, 186 pounds
The dynamic Honey Badger is only 10 months removed from a December 2015 ACL tear and is rounding back into form.
Getty Images Elsa
SS: Shamarko Thomas, Pittsburgh Steelers: 5-9, 205 pounds
Chargers strong safety Jahleel Addae is under two bills at 5-10 but the tie goes to the player of average American male height.
Geoff Burke-USA TODAY Sports Geoff Burke
CB: Jamarcus Joyner: Los Angeles Rams: 5-8, 184 pounds
A number of other defensive backs check in at around this size, including Buster Skrine of the Jets (5-9, 185), Charles James of the Chiefs (same) and the Ravens' Tavon Young (5-9, 177).
CB: Nickell Robey-Coleman, Buffalo Bills: 5-8, 165 pounds
In Week 5, the Bills' slot corner earned AFC Defensive Player of the Week honors for his two-interception performance against the Rams, one of which he returned for the go-ahead touchdown.
Tom Szczerbowski Getty Images
FS: Tyrann Mathieu, Arizona Cardinals: 5-9, 186 pounds
The dynamic Honey Badger is only 10 months removed from a December 2015 ACL tear and is rounding back into form.
Getty Images Elsa
SS: Shamarko Thomas, Pittsburgh Steelers: 5-9, 205 pounds
Chargers strong safety Jahleel Addae is under two bills at 5-10 but the tie goes to the player of average American male height.
Geoff Burke-USA TODAY Sports Geoff Burke
CB: Jamarcus Joyner: Los Angeles Rams: 5-8, 184 pounds
A number of other defensive backs check in at around this size, including Buster Skrine of the Jets (5-9, 185), Charles James of the Chiefs (same) and the Ravens' Tavon Young (5-9, 177).
A
anon_xdc8rmuek44eq
Guest
Dre Bly is listed at 5'10" but that's really generous. He was a ball hawk in college at UNC and had a very nice pro career.
And Darrell Green is considered to be one the greatest cornerbacks to ever play in the NFL at 5' 8", 184 pounds.
wade will be fine. He’s a way better athlete than some of the safeties we’ve had in the past. Doesn’t anyone remember Julio Jones running over Astorino and company? Or Guman/Scirotto/Apke getting beat in coverage? The only “athletic” safeties we’ve had lately in my opinion would be Allen and maybe Sukay. Wade is a better athlete than any of them.
Why are we complaining? Should he have gone to Pitt?
Why are we complaining? Should he have gone to Pitt?
