Justification of 3 pt TD - Feldman vs Catka

[NittanyChris]

I hate tOSU but Feldman deserved to win with the only TD of the match. Catka had a 1 pt escape and 1 pt with riding time secured in the 3rd. Feldman got the late, dramatic TD for THREE and the W. Last year it’s only good for a tie and they go to OT. Some might like that, but I still say the only guy with the TD deserves the W.

 

[nerfstate]

Would have been nice if the ESPN producer didn't decide to do an extented shot on "4 X NCAA Champ Tony Robie" w/ 20 seconds left in a 2 pt match though. Agree this match shows a case where the 3pt TD is an improvement.

 

[goldenanimal]

Would have been nice if the ESPN producer didn't decide to do an extented shot on "4 X NCAA Champ Tony Robie" w/ 20 seconds left in a 2 pt match though. Agree this match shows a case where the 3pt TD is an improvement.

Agreed. Absolutely terrible timing. Catka snatched defeat from the jaws of victory, after wrestling a very technically sound match. Pulling for the Delco kid, but he couldn’t hold it together for 10 more seconds. Feldman is relentless and earned that win.

 

[El-Jefe]

I agree.

That said, the bigger issue in that match was the lack of scoring. T3 was needed in this match because Catka got a point for 2 minutes of no offense.

 

[dicemen99]

I hate tOSU but Feldman deserved to win with the only TD of the match. Catka had a 1 pt escape and 1 pt with riding time secured in the 3rd. Feldman got the late, dramatic TD for THREE and the W. Last year it’s only good for a tie and they go to OT. Some might like that, but I still say the only guy with the TD deserves the W.

He got his *ss ridden for two full minutes and then made no effort to ride.

He got a TD with 5 seconds to go. One guy dominated on the mat, the other guy won neutral at the very end of a period. You tell me that guy "deserved" to win. I disagree.

 

[NittanyChris]

He got his *ss ridden for two full minutes and then made no effort to ride.

He got a TD with 5 seconds to go. One guy dominated on the mat, the other guy won neutral at the very end of a period. You tell me that guy "deserved" to win. I disagree.

Then we disagree. The only guy with a TD deserves the W, IMO.

 

[nerfstate]

It is true—it looks like Feldman is advancing quite nicely attending #bottomschool

 

[GogglesPaizano]

Neither made a compelling case for the win IMO. A relatively boring match.

As for who 'deserved' the win, Feldman, via both the score and going and getting it. I know both were tired but I always have trouble with any winning wrestler getting taken down in the final 10 seconds only to lose. Inexcusable, lazy, stupid or just plain the other guy was better, you make the call

 

[dicemen99]

Then we disagree. The only guy with a TD deserves the W, IMO.

Yes we will. You are among the group, of which there are many, who think that wrestling should revolve around neutral wrestling. I like that folkstyle has emphasized 3 position wrestling. We disagree.

 

[jrod65]

Yes we will. You are among the group, of which there are many, who think that wrestling should revolve around neutral wrestling. I like that folkstyle has emphasized 3 position wrestling. We disagree.

Had a similar discussion about this match elsewhere. Good real world example of how the 3 point td can lead to a different result than 2pt td did.

I am on Dice's side with this particular match, but understand the merits of the opposite opinion.

 

[GogglesPaizano]

I remain a Folkstyle bigot, acknowledging the majority of wrestlers do not possess the skill to earn a riding time point. Now with the stalling from top rules I think RT, should be two points. I fear the game will change and most wrestlers will now simply play catch and release.

 

[El-Jefe]

Yes we will. You are among the group, of which there are many, who think that wrestling should revolve around neutral wrestling. I like that folkstyle has emphasized 3 position wrestling. We disagree.

I'm not in the camp of revolving around neutral.

And I would like it more if folkstyle would emphasize 3 position scoring. That 2nd period was 3 mat returns + 1:50 of Feldman flat on his stomach with Catka parallel riding, nothing approaching an attempt to score.

Emphasizing mat wrestling should not require rewarding Catka for that 2nd period.

 

[dicemen99]

I'm not in the camp of revolving around neutral.

And I would like it more if folkstyle would emphasize 3 position scoring. That 2nd period was 3 mat returns + 1:50 of Feldman flat on his stomach with Catka parallel riding, nothing approaching an attempt to score.

Emphasizing mat wrestling should not require rewarding Catka for that 2nd period.

I hate to pull the Cael trump card, but getting off bottom is friggin hard at the D1 level. Mat returns are a wrestling skill and preventing your opponent's attempts to score is difficult.

Feldman lying flat on his stomach with Catka parallel riding should result in a stall call for one or the other or both during the period. If it doesn't then there has been significant enough action or a poor job by the referee. Changing the rules because of consistently poor refereeing is NOT the answer, in fact, changing the rules is what results in consistently poor refereeing.

I don't care what it looks like to borderline fans and frankly, I don't think anything we change about the rules will result in a hill of beans in regard to the popularity of wrestling. But I understand the opposing opinion, I'm just laying out mine.

One thing I DO like about the 3 point TD is seeing the reward for a decisive decision be rewarded as it is turned into a major decision, and seeing domination rewarded with quicker TFs. So, it is not all bad. IMO we could do this without de-emphasizing mat wrestling.

 

[DuckBlunder]

Would have been nice if the ESPN producer didn't decide to do an extented shot on "4 X NCAA Champ Tony Robie" w/ 20 seconds left in a 2 pt match though. Agree this match shows a case where the 3pt TD is an improvement.

Yeah, that and the Refs need to wear dog-zapper collars for every time they walk in front of the camera.

 

[El-Jefe]

I hate to pull the Cael trump card, but getting off bottom is friggin hard at the D1 level. Mat returns are a wrestling skill and preventing your opponent's attempts to score is difficult.

Feldman lying flat on his stomach with Catka parallel riding should result in a stall call for one or the other or both during the period. If it doesn't then there has been significant enough action or a poor job by the referee. Changing the rules because of consistently poor refereeing is NOT the answer, in fact, changing the rules is what results in consistently poor refereeing.

I don't care what it looks like to borderline fans and frankly, I don't think anything we change about the rules will result in a hill of beans in regard to the popularity of wrestling. But I understand the opposing opinion, I'm just laying out mine.

One thing I DO like about the 3 point TD is seeing the reward for a decisive decision be rewarded as it is turned into a major decision, and seeing domination rewarded with quicker TFs. So, it is not all bad. IMO we could do this without de-emphasizing mat wrestling.

Of course it's hard to get out from bottom, and it should be.

It's harder yet when top is allowed to use the Tony Nelson Stall Ride of Doom.

Should top get dinged for it? Absolutely. And the refs used up their decade allotment of top stall calls when they dinged Nelson vs Gwiz. That was in 2014, so maybe in March we'll get another top stall call.

I'd also agree that T3 is the wrong remedy for this problem. Removing the RT incentive for top stalling is a more appropriate solution.

 

[tullfan68]

LOL well both guys had 7 minutes to get TD so its their own fault!

 

[CSauertiegPSU]

I hate tOSU but Feldman deserved to win with the only TD of the match. Catka had a 1 pt escape and 1 pt with riding time secured in the 3rd. Feldman got the late, dramatic TD for THREE and the W. Last year it’s only good for a tie and they go to OT. Some might like that, but I still say the only guy with the TD deserves the W.

Not sure I agree. But thus the crux of the issue. The other two positions are equally part of folkstyle wrestling. Catka got an escape and a rideout while Feldman didn’t/couldn’t.

 

[Petch]

Not sure I agree. But thus the crux of the issue. The other two positions are equally part of folkstyle wrestling. Catka got an escape and a rideout while Feldman didn’t/couldn’t.

Yes…the 3pt TD totally rewards neutral wrestling over the other two positions…as evidenced by this match

As a PSU fan, it is nice to know that it doesn’t matter what the rules are…as our guys will adjust and dominate with whatever is implemented.

 

[El-Jefe]

Yes…the 3pt TD totally rewards neutral wrestling over the other two positions…as evidenced by this match

As a PSU fan, it is nice to know that it doesn’t matter what the rules are…as our guys will adjust and dominate with whatever is implemented.

NF4 is still more points than T3, right?

T3 rewards neutral scoring over top not scoring. Then again, so did T2.

 

[donboy6499]

He got his *ss ridden for two full minutes and then made no effort to ride.

He got a TD with 5 seconds to go. One guy dominated on the mat, the other guy won neutral at the very end of a period. You tell me that guy "deserved" to win. I disagree.

Yeah, I have no issue at all with a guy losing who has the only takedown. No real issue the other way either. I see points made for both that make sense.

It just makes the sport essentially a takedown sport. To dicemen's point, the flipside is that a guy can do nothing for 6:30, literally just dance and hold center, stay under the other guy for several minutes, then win with a takedown.

Comes back to stalling, and calling stalling from the bottom as much as the top. Don't think it isn't lost on guys that the 3 point takedown at the end minimizes a lot of bottom deficiencies.

 

[NittanyChris]

Iowa Style New Rules:
Pushing: 1 point
Tying up in neutral: 1 point
Takedowns: 1/2 point
Riding without turning: 1 point
Escape: 1 point
Going an entire 7 minutes without shooting: 5 points!

 

[CSauertiegPSU]

NF4 is still more points than T3, right?

T3 rewards neutral scoring over top not scoring. Then again, so did T2.

Sure, but NF2 isn’t and NF3 isn’t. And we can generally agree that putting someone on their back if harder/more rare than a takedown. So not sure that’s a like for like comparison

 

[El-Jefe]

Sure, but NF2 isn’t and NF3 isn’t. And we can generally agree that putting someone on their back if harder/more rare than a takedown. So not sure that’s a like for like comparison

Sure. Also RT often rewards top for not scoring. There is no corrrsponding neutral point for not scoring.

I'd love to see data on this: gut says NF2 is primarily an extension of neutral activity. It can happen from top, but those swipes more often result in NF4.

 

[CSauertiegPSU]

Sure. Also RT often rewards top for not scoring. There is no corrrsponding neutral point for not scoring.

I'd love to see data on this: gut says NF2 is primarily an extension of neutral activity. It can happen from top, but those swipes more often result in NF4.

But there *is* a corresponding bottom point for an escape. And it’s not like RT points are given out like candy.

 

[jtothemfp]

Good thread. I enjoyed the points & the point-making here.

 

[Ja1339]

It occurs to me that no one in recent memory would have benefited more from the three point takedown rule than Roman Bravo Young.

I recall quite a few matches where he’d have like 6 takedowns to none, and only be up 13-7 in the third. Even with riding time point, that’s a regular decision.

This year, those 6 takedowns, and escapes to start 2nd-3rd, and riding time point, he’d be up 20-7. Last year he’s a takedown away from a major. This year he’s a takedown away from a TF.

 

[GogglesPaizano]

I am ok with the 3 PT takedown, but fear mat wrestling will be lost in preference for catch and release.

To counter balance a bit, I would like them to make riding time 2 points (it's hard, especially with the changes, and only a small percentage of wrestlers master that skill), and force wrestlers to wrestle in all three positions. No choosing neutral, in the second, third or especially in OT.

PS - there has been no other team so dominant from neutral than PSU over the past decade. As strong as we are from top, we are moreso from neutral. The NCAA instantly made PSU even more dominant, likewise Cael will also adapt tactically to make us even more deadly from neutral. The dynasty just got stronger ;-)

 

[a_mshaffer]

to lazy to look for the original 'rules change' thread. I'm still not sure I like the 3 pt TD. However, I am sure that if a TD from neutral is 3 then a reversal when someone has control of you should be 3...or more. Certainly will see more MDs and tech's and dual meet scoring will probably not come down to a tie (criteria).

 

[donboy6499]

to lazy to look for the original 'rules change' thread. I'm still not sure I like the 3 pt TD. However, I am sure that if a TD from neutral is 3 then a reversal when someone has control of you should be 3...or more. Certainly will see more MDs and tech's and dual meet scoring will probably not come down to a tie (criteria).

Was thinking the exact same thing re: reversal. I think it was the Steen/Howard match (Don’t quote me) that had the reversal/escape and I was thinking “Wait a minute, escapes are worth 1/3 a TD but half a reversal?”

 

[86PSUPaul]

Was thinking the exact same thing re: reversal. I think it was the Steen/Howard match (Don’t quote me) that had the reversal/escape and I was thinking “Wait a minute, escapes are worth 1/3 a TD but half a reversal?”

Steen had a reversal and Howard escaped right after.

 

[tullfan68]

LOL 3 pt takedown should not be an issue they both have 7 minutes to get as many TD as they can, end of story!!

 

[a_mshaffer]

Steen had a reversal and Howard escaped right after.

yep, MM got taken down and had an immediate reversal and was losing 3-2.

 

[NittanyChris]

I’m on board with a reversal being 3 points as well. The problem, IMO, was that a 2:1 point ratio for a TD:Escape was always giving disproportionate value to the escape, especially when very often the bottom wrestler did nothing to earn the escape. I like it as it stands now, 3:1, which is more in line with the skill & effort typically involved in each. By this logic, it makes complete sense to me that an escape should equal a TD in point value.

 

[GogglesPaizano]

Well I have a side note. It will be interesting to see some actual data analysis on this as the season matures, but it sure seems like major decisions for certain are far more attainable and frequent. In theory we should be seeing the same for tech falls. How many times did we see RBY, or Nick Lee with 10 takedowns or more only to earn a major with a point differential in the low teens? I like what the three point TD has done to both making an 8 point victory easier to attain, but also bringing a TF back within a 'reasonable' range. Anyone with a 7-13 takedown advantage has demonstrated a level of dominance commensurate with earning a TF, especially once you get that disparity over 10 IMO.

I expect several of our more veteran guys in particular really start cranking out the bonus victories. In particular Nagao, SVN, Haines, MM, Carter, Aaron, and hopefully Kerk should all be bonus machines.

Now the relevant question.

Could this make a difference at nationals, in terms of the quest for 170? I think so. Considering a combination of TFs and Pins, I could see those 7 alone deliver 2-3 bonus points each on average. If correct, we are talking some real team bonus contribution.

For absolutely friggin certain, if we break the record, you will see GIA clamoring for an asterisk.

 

[CSauertiegPSU]

Well I have a side note. It will be interesting to see some actual data analysis on this as the season matures, but it sure seems like major decisions for certain are far more attainable and frequent. In theory we should be seeing the same for tech falls. How many times did we see RBY, or Nick Lee with 10 takedowns or more only to earn a major with a point differential in the low teens? I like what the three point TD has done to both making an 8 point victory easier to attain, but also bringing a TF back within a 'reasonable' range. Anyone with a 7-13 takedown advantage has demonstrated a level of dominance commensurate with earning a TF, especially once you get that disparity over 10 IMO.

I expect several of our more veteran guys in particular really start cranking out the bonus victories. In particular Nagao, SVN, Haines, MM, Carter, Aaron, and hopefully Kerk should all be bonus machines.

Now the relevant question.

Could this make a difference at nationals, in terms of the quest for 170? I think so. Considering a combination of TFs and Pins, I could see those 7 alone deliver 2-3 bonus points each on average. If correct, we are talking some real team bonus contribution.

For absolutely friggin certain, if we break the record, you will see GIA clamoring for an asterisk.

if I remember correctly, the scoring was slightly different the year they hit 170 anyway. Was an extra advancement point available or something along those lines

 

[86PSUPaul]

if I remember correctly, the scoring was slightly different the year they hit 170 anyway. Was an extra advancement point available or something along those lines

But the GIA faithful can’t be expected to remember that….