Highrise condo collapes on Collins Ave in Surfside-Miami
- Thread starter Delco Lion
- Start date
That area (I've driven by that condo a hundred times - I recognized it immediately from the unique railings on the balconies) certainly suffers from beach erosion (lots of it), but the water is right where it's always been. Same situation on Singer Island and even Jupiter Island. Greg Norman used to pay for his own beach "re-nourishment". That's FU money if I've ever seen it.
Which is almost as absurd as the position that global warming is a fantasy, and that fossil fuel companies are our very best friends.
Funny, I was almost going to cite that project. I thought they were going to do (or did) some ground improvement to slow down settlement.As a frame of reference, there is the Millenium Tower in San Fransisco which has settled 17+ inches and is still occupied.
Foundation Fix to Start Next Month on San Francisco's Troubled Millennium Tower
Work on the nearly $100-million perimeter pile upgrade on the 645-ft-tall residential tower to prevent significant future settlement follows the resolution of litigation.www.enr.com
A whole lot of hyperbole there. Please note that I said it may have contributed.
Do you have any reasonable counters to my point? I can summarize the soil mechanics behind settlement and rising groundwater if you would like.
Do you know what I hate most about climate change? The term climate change. It's an utterly stupid and inane term. It means nothing. It's like saying the sky is blue. Global warming (actually man made global warming) at least meant something. Unfortunately, the climate models of doom fell apart when the predictions didn't come true, so they had to rebrand it. The term they picked was meant for the low IQ bunch who can't grasp that the term is deliberately nebulous and nondescriptive. Cest la vie.
I'm happy to see any equations you can provide that show a link or correlation between a fraction or even a few degrees of atmospheric temperature change and the levels and settling effects of ground water that's insulated from the atmosphere. I've never questioned soil mechanics or settling. Surely someone can provide a modicum of math to support the notion that climate change is a driving force in them.
I'm trying to stick to the engineering, but you seem determined to turn this thread into a test board argument. My only word on the matter will be the following links (there are plenty more if you google) and then I will only respond to engineering discussion.
PS. I'm using the term "climate change" as to not insinuate that warming is due to human activity (I have no idea if that is true or not).
https://climate.nasa.gov/vital-signs/sea-level/
https://scied.ucar.edu/learning-zone/climate-change-impacts/rising-sea-level
https://www.climate.gov/news-features/understanding-climate/climate-change-global-sea-level
I'm not sure I understand--maybe I'm one of the low-IQ types you allude to. Are there villains who are fabricating the stories about melting glaciers and ice shelves disappearing and Siberian permafrost thawing and oceans levels rising and "growing zones" changing before our eyes and average world temperatures elevating and all of that?
Frankly, I don't know enough about the dynamics which might have been involved in the collapse of that building to suggest any cause and effect, but the rest of what I mentioned sure sounds like lots of canaries are lying dead on the coal mine floor.
Sorry, I was doing my Mr. Mom business earlier, skimmed the articles and posted. Home now and having a hogi, reading the thread.
If the article is referring to an inch settlement over time….this certainly does not make a “Leaning Tower of Pisa”
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Engineers use equations. Trust me, I know. Yet, if you search the web, people are now trying to claim climate change without being able, or even asked, to provide a single equation. I guess asking a simple question is a radical concept. You chose to defend the global warming statement, you said you would provide an engineering basis, and you haven't.
Rising sea levels and evidence of warming climate are based on studies, not equations.
Take it to the test board.
It's pretty simple, the climate has always been changing, hence the idiocy of the term climate change. It's a dumb term, but hey, people lap it up without questioning.
I can't help that there are a multitude of articles out there blaming global warming for this. You said you would provide an engineering basis for the link. I have agreed that I would like to see that link.
Agreed. Obviously you don't want it to settle but it's not uncommon. Even some differential settlement can be overcome. This seems like a more catastrophic event. I originally suspected a sink hole but I don't think this area of Florida has as many sink holes as areas to the northwest so it might be an unlikely cause.
Since we are speculating, what about terrorism or an intentional act? Maybe a car/truck in the parking garage struck a column?
I can agree with a Malicious act. We don't know the column layout, but I would hope the building has enough redundancy framed into the building to over come a truck taking out a few columns. Then again, maybe not.
Technically spalling is an effect of the corrosion and not necessarily the cause, as steel oxidizes it expands and thus pops off, or spalls, the concrete. Yes, the more the concrete spalls the more the steel is exposed and the more it corrodes, in a vicious cycle.
Deliberate act fits the catastrophic nature more than gradual settlement or corrosion. However, no report of loud noises like collision or explosive though. Gremlins maybe?
I figured you could lose one column and load could be re-distributed. I'm surprised that you could possibly lose a few.
we won't know until we know, but I'm expecting a series of unfortunate choices in the design, construction, inspections protocol, and the maintenance of the building to all be factors
Looking at the video, the center right section falls as one piece. Looks to me that the failure is the base of the building.....foundation or first floor. So doubt the roof was over loaded. And no indication of an explosion so doubt a terrorist action. And since the debris pile is three stories high I doubt a sinkhole unless it was a small one near the center.....just enough to cause failure.
But one article posted earlier said they were in the process of getting approval for major repairs which can be a time consuming process. And they started roof repairs which added weight to the entire structure....that needed repairs. And starting roof repairs immediately indicates serious leaking. And that leaking could have caused many issues internally, especially if has been a long term problem.
I suspect the parking garage as well. Important structural columns exposed to the elements 24/7.
There are also past reports of water freely entering the building from rain; hence the roof repairs. I can envision a scenario where differential settlement coupled with deferred maintenance of the vertical supports could cause such a collapse.
There's a reason why the units were comparatively inexpensive for SE Florida oceanfront. That said, why didn't the most western part of the structure remain largely intact?
My point is that one truck accidentally is not going to take out two columns..
Close to winning a Kewpie doll Nitt, agree that all of the aboved mentioned factors play greatly into a buildings performance.
My question is...regardless if the building has not been inspected during the past 40 years, would a building that has been inspected every 10 years have the necessary structural components that meet the I.B.C. code withstand whatever catastrophic event that took place on Thursday morning?
Because of Andrew - still to me the scariest storm of our lifetimes - people should know that FL actually has the strictest building codes in the country. Nothing but concrete block construction and very detailed truss connections for single family homes. Condo codes are even more oppressive (or safe, if you will).
That said, this building was built 11 years prior to Andrew. If it wasn't blown up (which I don't think it was), it was due to what Nitt said - lax inspections and a cheap HOA (maintenance). I watch my CJ-8 rust before my eyes from day to day (of course, part of that is on AMC Jeep). When you are due east of this salt air down here, you see that it can destroy almost anything. Look at Magda from There's Something About Mary.
The main bridge in Stuart, FL was falling apart and closed for a good time last year. You can call it faulty engineering, but it was a sitting duck for the salt.
I'm crying UNCLE...I give up. The main emphasis on building codes from 1980 to now is the new wind loading and seismic. Most likely The dead and live loading hasn't changed drastically enough to determine an increase in existing structural componets. AS I MENTIONED PREVIOUSLY, the strength is in properly designed structural connections.
So, unless this was an extreme wind or seismic event...what caused an abrupt, immediate collapse? Inspection oversight failures?
You know an inside joke with the engineering community concerning the constant proliferation of changes to I.B.C. codes....."Those who can, do...those who can't teach"
We in the industry are overwhelmed with constant changing codes @ several thousand $ per year. AISC, ACI, I.B.C., RESIDENTUAL I.B.C., ETC. not to mention the many, many environmental agencies to request absolution costing many man hours of $, these people and the IRS are the real american mafia.
The state legislature and US Congress and Senate can be considered just the "street pimps" i
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The Pittsburgh Convention Center had to undergo serious repairs shortly after opening because contractors used the wrong bolts connecting critical beams. Some failed and caused shifting but fortunately it was found and corrected before any major failures occurred.
Salt. And oversight. Unless it was blown up of course. Those McAfee tweets are fake btw.
Junior High level conspiracy theories (good enough for the Daily Mail of course though) that he had 31 TB of dirt on the deep state stored in that building.
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The convention center had a failure. A parked semi trailer caused a floor section to collapse. From my memory, an investigation found that there was too much friction in connection plates (like a wear plate) designed to allow for contraction/expansion in the connection (long day today so I cannot remember the common name of the plates... but they have graphite plugs in steel plate to allow for steel on steel movement under load, or it was something similar). They were changed out and all has been well. The failure occured on an extremely cold night which caused the steel floor beams to contract, which were supposed to slide on the plates, but could not due to friction, which overstressed some connections on that floor section. These floor sections were exposed to open air below for street use/parking (cold) but the greater building was heated.
Anyway, that is a high level nontechnical explanation from what I remember. I am sure there are a few structural guys here who know more and maybe worked on it. If there are, I would love to hear what they know.
As I sip on more bourbon, I think this particular event/connection issue was discussed in an AISC continuing education class? Certainly the details are out there and is a lesson learned kind of thing in the profession.
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The video of that condo building collapsing is profoundly unsettling. It reminded me a little of the Twin Towers collapse. albeit on (thankfully) a much smaller scale. God bless those people.
I thought the same. It is unsettling to see how quickly a structure of that size can come down and how small we all are in comparison. As you said, God Bless them.
I thought one of the construction workers was killed when this happened.
I’ll also say God bless the victims and the families of this collapse. Hoping with the time of night that they didn’t realized what was happening, I’ll just leave it at that.
Except, it’s a condo. They’re essentially suing themselves by suing the condo association (insurance will fight any payment).
This almost happen on a Susquehanna river bridge I managed in 1986. The supplier sent the wrong type of bolts
Spin Meister,
Read Section 7.2 in the Below AISC SPECS:
The HS bolts would have been verified during pre-tension testing of impact wrenches and the suppliers bill of lading.
Of course because thousands of bolts are used in a project of this type, it’s conceivable a (Danny DeVito type) contractor might mix in non-specified bolts during erection. Inspection of Bolt tensioning should be a paramount activity during structsteel erection.
Have to go and do my Mr. Mom business now.
Ciao
It looks like the pool deck and parking garage were the focus of the engineer's inspection done in 2018.
"Three years before the deadly collapse of the Champlain Towers South condominium complex near Miami, a consultant found alarming evidence of “major structural damage” to the concrete slab below the pool deck and “abundant” cracking and crumbling of the columns, beams and walls of the parking garage under the 13-story building.
The engineer’s report helped shape plans for a multimillion-dollar repair project that was set to get underway soon — more than two and a half years after the building managers were warned — but the building suffered a catastrophic collapse in the middle of the night on Thursday, trapping sleeping residents in a massive heap of debris."
www.nytimes.com
I also read in another article that the residents were facing a $100k+ assessment for the planned concrete repairs.
"Three years before the deadly collapse of the Champlain Towers South condominium complex near Miami, a consultant found alarming evidence of “major structural damage” to the concrete slab below the pool deck and “abundant” cracking and crumbling of the columns, beams and walls of the parking garage under the 13-story building.
The engineer’s report helped shape plans for a multimillion-dollar repair project that was set to get underway soon — more than two and a half years after the building managers were warned — but the building suffered a catastrophic collapse in the middle of the night on Thursday, trapping sleeping residents in a massive heap of debris."
Engineer Warned of ‘Major Structural Damage’ at Florida Condo Complex (Published 2021)
A consultant in 2018 urged the managers to repair cracked columns and crumbling concrete. The work was finally about to get underway when the building collapsed.
I also read in another article that the residents were facing a $100k+ assessment for the planned concrete repairs.
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