Highrise condo collapes on Collins Ave in Surfside-Miami

[step.eng69]

If the column and beam were poured monolithically that's how they would look if the beam was narrower than the column,

Correct SLUPSU,
Just returned from Allentown Air Port.

The devil is in the details. I couldn’t open the plans link, are there details of the connection? I believe the focal point of the video was salt water saturation of floor slabs, saturation columns to pile cap and beams to columns.

 

[SLUPSU]

Correct SLUPSU,
Just returned from Allentown Air Port.

The devil is in the details. I couldn’t open the plans link, are there details of the connection? I believe the focal point of the video was salt water saturation of floor slabs, saturation columns to pile cap and beams to columns.

Sorry about that link, try this one below and scroll down to the file called "structural-plans," the one that's 9 MB's in size. There isn't a detail specific to that column, I suppose the approved shop drawings would have worked out the details beyond the contract documents. Lot's of other documents at the link.

Public Records Search - Town of Surfside

All public records requests should be made through the Town of Surfside Clerk.

surfside.one

 

[step.eng69]

Sorry about that link, try this one below and scroll down to the file called "structural-plans," the one that's 9 MB's in size. There isn't a detail specific to that column, I suppose the approved shop drawings would have worked out the details beyond the contract documents. Lot's of other documents at the link.

Public Records Search - Town of Surfside

All public records requests should be made through the Town of Surfside Clerk.

surfside.one

Thank you much SLUPSU…..
Love ya……
Don’t get emotional on me, I tell that to all of my guy grandchildren and son

 

[Pardlion]

Very interesting analysis of initial area of Surfside collapse
@ 25 minutes in the video ....transfer concrete beam is tied into the side of the columns?

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There has to be some kind of design defect that caused the collapsing pool deck to pull (or push) the columns laterally, collapsing them.

 

[wilbury]

There has to be some kind of design defect that caused the collapsing pool deck to pull (or push) the columns laterally, collapsing them.

A design defect should have been caught in the numerous structural reviews completed recently.

 

[Pardlion]

One thing I just noticed when I watched the video is that the column that you can maybe see in the tourist video lying on the ground inside the garage has fallen left to right. If I’m orienting correctly, I would have expected it to have fallen front to back, I.e., towards to pool, or perhaps back to front. It seems like it has fallen perpendicular to the column to column support beams.

 

[step.eng69]

@Pardlion
@wilbury
@SLUPSU

Garage walk thru provides interesting slab and column issues

 

[LafayetteBear]

So Step, SLUPSU (and other engineer types who care to weigh in): I realize you have not done the actual forensic examination of the Champlain Tower South building that collapsed, but from what you HAVE seen in terms of photos, plans, and narratives on this collapse, would you hazard a guess as to whether this building could have been saved with better (and more timely) maintenance and retrofits, or did the design make its failure likely in any event? And do you believe that this is a one off, or that multiple buildings in the vicinity are at risk of failure as well?

 

[step.eng69]

Uh, I’ll be quit like a church mouse.🐀

I wonder if the engineering forensic teams will come to a definitive answer to your question.

 

[Pardlion]

@Pardlion
@wilbury
@SLUPSU

Garage walk thru provides interesting slab and column issues

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Very interesting, thank you.

 

[step.eng69]

Very interesting, thank you.

You’re welcome,
Pardlion

 

[SLUPSU]

@Pardlion
@wilbury
@SLUPSU

Garage walk thru provides interesting slab and column issues

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Excellent presenter, lots of good information. I skimmed through some of his other videos and at this time, without further information, I'll have to disagree with his thinking about a large void under the garage slab and his thinking on differential settlement.
Thanks for posting.

 

[SLUPSU]

So Step, SLUPSU (and other engineer types who care to weigh in): I realize you have not done the actual forensic examination of the Champlain Tower South building that collapsed, but from what you HAVE seen in terms of photos, plans, and narratives on this collapse, would you hazard a guess as to whether this building could have been saved with better (and more timely) maintenance and retrofits, or did the design make its failure likely in any event? And do you believe that this is a one off, or that multiple buildings in the vicinity are at risk of failure as well?

If it turns out the ultimate cause of the collapse was hidden below the garage slab then routine normal inspections and maintenance wouldn't have mattered. You can't maintain what you can't see or get to unless you do destructive testing, not something that's normally done or even considered.

I think there are some easy and cheap code improvements that could go a long way to protect against this sort of corrosion issue.

 

[step.eng69]

Excellent presenter, lots of good information. I skimmed through some of his other videos and at this time, without further information, I'll have to disagree with his thinking about a large void under the garage slab and his thinking on differential settlement.
Thanks for posting.

I don't recall his discussion on differential settlement unless that was introduced into the very preliminary discussions. Those discussions have obviously moved forward.

 

[step.eng69]

I think there are some easy and cheap code improvements that could go a long way to protect against this sort of corrosion issue.

Epoxy reinforcement, more concrete coverage over reinforcement, additional reinforcement beyond the already factor of safety Incorporated into the design.

Keep the "sea water from saturating the concrete slabs and columns.

Sorry, it is late, I have other riff raft issues to address tomorrow. ****ing township reviewers questioning my elementary designs for a short height retaining wall. Common sense is all but extent with the new generation.

 

[SLUPSU]

Epoxy reinforcement, more concrete coverage over reinforcement, additional reinforcement beyond the already factor of safety Incorporated into the design.

Exactly what I was thinking, one more is to simply require higher psi concrete (reduced w/c ratio). The stronger the concrete the "tighter" more moisture resistant it will be.

 

[LafayetteBear]

Sorry, it is late, I have other riff raft issues to address tomorrow. ****ing township reviewers questioning my elementary designs for a short height retaining wall. Common sense is all but extent with the new generation.

Extinct?

 

[91Joe95]

Extinct?

Overflowing.

 

[wilbury]

@Pardlion
@wilbury
@SLUPSU

Garage walk thru provides interesting slab and column issues

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Interesting videos. Like anything, you need to weed out the garbage to get a few good details. I don't put much significance in the garage floor slab cracking or paint paint peeling off of the beam. He's throwing everything out there so that when they ultimately do find the cause, he'll be right one way or another.

I think those planter boxes are suspicious. Lots of weight, hard to estimate the total load when designing and always a water issue. Also tons of water issues on those floor slabs which is especially significant due to how it's designed - all weight on most of those floor slabs - few beams running column to column to carry the slab loads.

 

[Woodpecker]

Extinct?

Extant?

 

[SLUPSU]

Interesting videos. Like anything, you need to weed out the garbage to get a few good details. I don't put much significance in the garage floor slab cracking or paint paint peeling off of the beam. He's throwing everything out there so that when they ultimately do find the cause, he'll be right one way or another.

I think those planter boxes are suspicious. Lots of weight, hard to estimate the total load when designing and always a water issue. Also tons of water issues on those floor slabs which is especially significant due to how it's designed - all weight on most of those floor slabs - few beams running column to column to carry the slab loads.

Agree with your suspicions with the planters, lot's of opportunity for accelerated corrosion and poor drainage. After reading your post, I decided to look at the columns near the planters and I was surprised/shocked to see one column (just outside the weight room) that is actually exterior up to the underside of the second floor with its' base that's actually completely inside a planter!! There's also another column that has one face that's also in a planter, if those aren't recipes for accelerated corrosion with added loads on the slab, I don't know what is.

edit: I tried to find this column in some real estate listing photos and the best I could tell is this area was changed and the column was actually inside. The wall at the weight room was actually built flush with the rest of the existing facade, not set back as shown on the drawings.

 

[step.eng69]

For those that wish to read the construction history of the Champlain Towers, the link is below.
I skimmed through the article.

In South Florida, developers often demand exceptions to rules. Champlain Towers got several​

Link:

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/miami-beach/article252467273.html

---

It isn’t clear if the addition of a penthouse put undue stress on the south tower, though any possible irregularity related to the building is receiving new attention from local authorities and engineers after its sudden collapse.

The tower’s rooftop apartments would have added significant weight but they were accounted for in the revised design, said Roberto Leon, a professor of construction engineering at Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University, who reviewed the building plans.

The structural plans show that the size of the columns and reinforcements would have been typical for that time, and the roof would have had limited ability to redistribute the building’s load if one of the columns were to fail, he said.

Link:

Miami-Area Condo That Collapsed Skirted Local Codes With Penthouse

The addition of another floor increased the building’s height by about 9 feet, putting the tower slightly above the town’s legal height ordinance at the time.

www.wsj.com

 

[step.eng69]

So Step, SLUPSU (and other engineer types who care to weigh in): I realize you have not done the actual forensic examination of the Champlain Tower South building that collapsed, but from what you HAVE seen in terms of photos, plans, and narratives on this collapse, would you hazard a guess as to whether this building could have been saved with better (and more timely) maintenance and retrofits, or did the design make its failure likely in any event? And do you believe that this is a one off, or that multiple buildings in the vicinity are at risk of failure as well?

You, @fairgambit, grandson and other attorneys should enjoy this video....

 

[LionJim]

Surfside victims, families will get $150M in initial compensation, judge says

The victims and families who were affected by the Surfside condominium collapse will receive an initial minimum compensation of $150 million, a judge ruled on Wednesday.

thehill.com

 

[91Joe95]

Surfside victims, families will get $150M in initial compensation, judge says

The victims and families who were affected by the Surfside condominium collapse will receive an initial minimum compensation of $150 million, a judge ruled on Wednesday.

thehill.com

I bet the attorneys pick that amount clean.

 

[LionJim]

I bet the attorneys pick that amount clean.

Well, this money isn’t from a lawsuit so this might be an exception to the rule.

 

[royboy]

The aftermath:

Surfside condo site almost completely cleared a month after collapse

Victims of the deadly June 24 condo collapse in Surfside and their families will receive at least $150million initially, a judge ruled Wednesday, as cleanup at the collapse site ends.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[LionJim]

It must have been hell working there and cleaning up.

 

[royboy]

It must have been hell working there and cleaning up.

Just for a start -- hot, dirty, dusty, bad smelling, dangerous, sad, maddening

 

[step.eng69]

Just for a start -- hot, dirty, dusty, bad smelling, dangerous, sad, maddening

Thank you for the up-date, I didn't realize the clean up was nearly completed.

 

[LafayetteBear]

Just for a start -- hot, dirty, dusty, bad smelling, dangerous, sad, maddening

The danger of additional collapse or settlement must have been the worst of it. That, and the knowledge that the debris you were cleaning up had a lot of pulverized human remains mixed into it. Truly sobering. God bless those poor people ...

 

[SLUPSU]

Here are a few more photos of the cleanup.

 

[BobPSU92]

Prime real estate. When does construction start on the new high-rise?

 

[royboy]

Prime real estate. When does construction start on the new high-rise?

Too soon, Bob.

 

[step.eng69]

The danger of additional collapse or settlement must have been the worst of it. That, and the knowledge that the debris you were cleaning up had a lot of pulverized human remains mixed into it. Truly sobering. God bless those poor people ...

YEP....similar to claiming bodies and cleaning debris during WW II. Everyone should really reflect, and understand Layayette's post.....
"the knowledge that the debris you were cleaning up had a lot of pulverized human remains mixed into it. Truly sobering. God bless those poor people ..."

 

[step.eng69]

Prime real estate. When does construction start on the new high-rise?

Too soon, Bob.

Don't take Bob's post as being inconsiderate and cold, he is right, after the Champlain Towers went down, there were probably dozens of communications between new developers and the insurance company. Hence, the quick initial insurance settlement.

 

[LafayetteBear]

Don't take Bob's post as being inconsiderate and cold, he is right, after the Champlain Towers went down, there were probably dozens of communications between new developers and the insurance company. Hence, the quick initial insurance settlement.

One very good thing about possible interest in and offers for that real estate is that the money which flows in to buy that land will help compensate a whole lot of people who are suffering both emotionally and financially. I just hope (and believe) that it will take some time before any kind of groundbreaking for a new structure commences there.

 

[BobPSU92]

Don't take Bob's post as being inconsiderate and cold, he is right, after the Champlain Towers went down, there were probably dozens of communications between new developers and the insurance company. Hence, the quick initial insurance settlement.

I was surprised to see how quickly they cleared the site. As if I’m the only one thinking redevelopment. Remember, I’m dumber than most. If I can think of it, real movers and shakers must be.

 

[step.eng69]

I thought this might be interesting For those that hear expressions as this in the news, but don't have the concept of the mechanics involved. I didn't view the video yet, but can anticipate what Josh's approach will contain..
Going to watch now

 

[91Joe95]

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Did they find any settling/shifting/sink holes? I didn't see any and I don't remember seeing any reference to such, or is that still to be determined.