Film Study - Rebirth of Penn State's Wide Zone Run Scheme

[CaliLION79]

RUN GAME FILM STUDY vs. SPARTY

See Link...so maybe "rebirth" isn't the right phrase. More like "birth." OG viewers of our videos might remember when Yurcich was first hired in Jan 2021 that Codutti did a video of the then-new OC's philosophy and like half the damn video was on Wide Zone/Outside Zone run scheme. And now, almost 3 years later and with Yurcich no longer here, Wide Zone/Outside Zone from Penn State finally looked/performed the way we thought it would look/perform when Yurcich took over. Why all the sudden? Honestly, no clue. Could be opponent? Maybe. But honestly Yurcich tried this WZ/OZ in 2021 (Villanova, woof) and it was a disaster. So who knows. Whatever the reason, Singleton and Allen both appeared more comfortable in this system -- especially out of Pistol where Allar can turn his back to the D, hand-off, get the RB going downhill, instead of having a read at the mesh point in shotgun. Also, stretching things horizontally seemed to aid Singleton's shaky, "work in progress" vision. Awesome to see this...but frustrating, as well, because where the heck was this all year?

 

[doctornick]

Is it scheming or is it MSU? I’m sure there’s some of both because our entire offensive planning for tOSU/UM was horrible

 

[lazydave841]

Is it scheming or is it MSU? I’m sure there’s some of both because our entire offensive planning for tOSU/UM was horrible

Scheme 60/Sparty 40, in my opinion. We failed to run this well all season until this game. NW and Indiana held our run game in check. NW was the worst rush defense in the league.

Outside zone helps our interior OL as well. They move and block better than they maul.

Next thing is Spartys defense. A lot of 2 high safeties. Way too much respect for our passing game. Not enough help in the run game. It's almost like Sparty was playing not to lose by 50 because the book was out on us since Illinois. Although I still go back to scheme because even when they did adjust, the Outside Zone worked two fold: 1. Our backs vision 2. Blocking was better.

 

[Rip_E_2_Joe_PA]

Is it scheming or is it MSU? I’m sure there’s some of both because our entire offensive planning for tOSU/UM was horrible

Wonder how much Yurcich was paid by UM to suffocate and misuse our most potent weapon(s) and thwarting the development of our first year QB?

Just a wild tic fantasy....
But sadly, If it was true and found to be a fact would you be surprised? Not me!

 

[Wallace Breen]

RUN GAME FILM STUDY vs. SPARTY

See Link...so maybe "rebirth" isn't the right phrase. More like "birth." OG viewers of our videos might remember when Yurcich was first hired in Jan 2021 that Codutti did a video of the then-new OC's philosophy and like half the damn video was on Wide Zone/Outside Zone run scheme. And now, almost 3 years later and with Yurcich no longer here, Wide Zone/Outside Zone from Penn State finally looked/performed the way we thought it would look/perform when Yurcich took over. Why all the sudden? Honestly, no clue. Could be opponent? Maybe. But honestly Yurcich tried this WZ/OZ in 2021 (Villanova, woof) and it was a disaster. So who knows. Whatever the reason, Singleton and Allen both appeared more comfortable in this system -- especially out of Pistol where Allar can turn his back to the D, hand-off, get the RB going downhill, instead of having a read at the mesh point in shotgun. Also, stretching things horizontally seemed to aid Singleton's shaky, "work in progress" vision. Awesome to see this...but frustrating, as well, because where the heck was this all year?

A few facts.

1. It takes years to build an adequate offensive line after a radical change like we saw in 2021, especially one that relies on a very specific skillset for every player except LT.
2. The run game is set up by the pass in this offense, not the other way around. The multi-tiered passing game removes defenders from the outside.
3. The pass game requires a receiver that can challenge the deep third and a QB that can drive the ball to him. We haven't had a receiver like that since Chris Godwin, and the position is getting weaker by the year, and Clifford does not have the arm to do it.

 

[Obliviax]

A few facts.

1. It takes years to build an adequate offensive line after a radical change like we saw in 2021, especially one that relies on a very specific skillset for every player except LT.
2. The run game is set up by the pass in this offense, not the other way around. The multi-tiered passing game removes defenders from the outside.
3. The pass game requires a receiver that can challenge the deep third and a QB that can drive the ball to him. We haven't had a receiver like that since Chris Godwin, and the position is getting weaker by the year, and Clifford does not have the arm to do it.

Agreed. The #1 key to reading a defense are the safeties. Generally, they do one of three things: cheat up to support the run-stopping game, cheat over to help out CBs cover, and cheat back to take away the deep threat. S against us had no concern about the deep game. So that left them to stop the run and/or short to medium pass. We ran so much on first down that it was pretty clear:

• 1st down - Cheat up to stop the run
• 2nd and long - Help a CB to stop the short to intermediate throw
• 2nd and short - cheat up to stop the run
• 3rd and long - Help a CB to stop the short to intermediate throw
• 3rd and short - cheat up to stop the run

The combo of not having to cover the deep routs and our predictability in play calling killed out offense all year IMHO.

 

[PSU Soupy]

The OL really seemed to work well together versus MSU. I thought that 77 and 71 at the OG really played well. The Tackles seemed very good and outside of 1 or 2 missed pickups the Center was good too.

The line seemed to move together and was hitting whoever was in their path. thought that the TEs were helpful on the run as well.

Very intersting the parallels between my two teams that i care about PSU and Steelers.....both let their OC go in the same week and the new OCs did what the fans were somewhat asking for and both offenses showed what seemed to be a dramatic improvement. Now MSU and the Bengals are not such great defenses.....but the offense executed more crisply the runs were quicker hitting runs.....both teams used the middle of the field more and both took some additional deep shots to prevent the defense from ganging up on runs and shorter passes.

 

[wilbury]

A few facts.

1. It takes years to build an adequate offensive line after a radical change like we saw in 2021, especially one that relies on a very specific skillset for every player except LT.
2. The run game is set up by the pass in this offense, not the other way around. The multi-tiered passing game removes defenders from the outside.
3. The pass game requires a receiver that can challenge the deep third and a QB that can drive the ball to him. We haven't had a receiver like that since Chris Godwin, and the position is getting weaker by the year, and Clifford does not have the arm to do it.

Those aren't "facts" and our QB isn't Clifford.

 

[Wallace Breen]

Those aren't "facts" and our QB isn't Clifford.

Actually, they are facts. That is the way the offense was built by Mike Gundy. Mike Yurcich was a care taker as OC much like Ricky Rahne was after JoeMo left and Brent Pry was after Bob Shoop was forced out. All are capable care takers but when it came to making adjustments to suit the talent on hand, fell short. A lot of coaches are like that.

 

[junior1]

RUN GAME FILM STUDY vs. SPARTY

See Link...so maybe "rebirth" isn't the right phrase. More like "birth." OG viewers of our videos might remember when Yurcich was first hired in Jan 2021 that Codutti did a video of the then-new OC's philosophy and like half the damn video was on Wide Zone/Outside Zone run scheme. And now, almost 3 years later and with Yurcich no longer here, Wide Zone/Outside Zone from Penn State finally looked/performed the way we thought it would look/perform when Yurcich took over. Why all the sudden? Honestly, no clue. Could be opponent? Maybe. But honestly Yurcich tried this WZ/OZ in 2021 (Villanova, woof) and it was a disaster. So who knows. Whatever the reason, Singleton and Allen both appeared more comfortable in this system -- especially out of Pistol where Allar can turn his back to the D, hand-off, get the RB going downhill, instead of having a read at the mesh point in shotgun. Also, stretching things horizontally seemed to aid Singleton's shaky, "work in progress" vision. Awesome to see this...but frustrating, as well, because where the heck was this all year?

another thing..not the run game..but we played just about every receiver on the team friday...I hadn't seen that yet this year

 

[Rip_E_2_Joe_PA]

Agreed. The #1 key to reading a defense are the safeties. Generally, they do one of three things: cheat up to support the run-stopping game, cheat over to help out CBs cover, and cheat back to take away the deep threat. S against us had no concern about the deep game. So that left them to stop the run and/or short to medium pass. We ran so much on first down that it was pretty clear:

• 1st down - Cheat up to stop the run
• 2nd and long - Help a CB to stop the short to intermediate throw
• 2nd and short - cheat up to stop the run
• 3rd and long - Help a CB to stop the short to intermediate throw
• 3rd and short - cheat up to stop the run

The combo of not having to cover the deep routs and our predictability in play calling killed out offense all year IMHO.

This and killed any real development of Allar. Yurcich needed relieved of his duties long before the Ohio State game.
It was hard watching the waste of talent and insanity of the entire offensive scheme. The execution of the run up to the los stop and then run parallel to the los was executed to perfection for no net gain. Singleton was turned into a duck at a shooting gallery in the insane Yurcich scheme. The outcome was predictable, tragically.

 

[NoBareFeet]

If someone could tell our coaches that it is within the rules to have the QB take the snap from under center, we could have been calling these downhill runs all season. But that will never happen under Franklin, unfortunately. Finesse ball for the win!

 

[PennState_one]

RUN GAME FILM STUDY vs. SPARTY

See Link...so maybe "rebirth" isn't the right phrase. More like "birth." OG viewers of our videos might remember when Yurcich was first hired in Jan 2021 that Codutti did a video of the then-new OC's philosophy and like half the damn video was on Wide Zone/Outside Zone run scheme. And now, almost 3 years later and with Yurcich no longer here, Wide Zone/Outside Zone from Penn State finally looked/performed the way we thought it would look/perform when Yurcich took over. Why all the sudden? Honestly, no clue. Could be opponent? Maybe. But honestly Yurcich tried this WZ/OZ in 2021 (Villanova, woof) and it was a disaster. So who knows. Whatever the reason, Singleton and Allen both appeared more comfortable in this system -- especially out of Pistol where Allar can turn his back to the D, hand-off, get the RB going downhill, instead of having a read at the mesh point in shotgun. Also, stretching things horizontally seemed to aid Singleton's shaky, "work in progress" vision. Awesome to see this...but frustrating, as well, because where the heck was this all year?

Beautiful film study.

 

[Obliviax]

This and killed any real development of Allar. Yurcich needed relieved of his duties long before the Ohio State game.
It was hard watching the waste of talent and insanity of the entire offensive scheme. The execution of the run up to the los stop and then run parallel to the los was executed to perfection for no net gain. Singleton was turned into a duck at a shooting gallery in the insane Yurcich scheme. The outcome was predictable, tragically.

Right.

I think, actually, the improvement against Sparty is pretty simple. First, their defense isn't that good. Lets get that out of the way. Sparty is not UM or tOSU.

But second, and this is kind of subtle, we lowered the number of zone/read plays. Nobody was being fooled by the zone read because nobody respects Allar's running skills. If you watch the handoffs, they are true handoffs. That means, the RB has a head of steam moving forward instead of standing there (or slowing moving forward) and waiting to see if they are the runner or if the QB is keeping the ball. The Z/R was hurting us and not the D. The RB is in fourth gear: enough to hit the like and drive a defender backward but slow enough to make a move into a hole that opens up.

 

[ram2020]

Right.

I think, actually, the improvement against Sparty is pretty simple. First, their defense isn't that good. Lets get that out of the way. Sparty is not UM or tOSU.

But second, and this is kind of subtle, we lowered the number of zone/read plays. Nobody was being fooled by the zone read because nobody respects Allar's running skills. If you watch the handoffs, they are true handoffs. That means, the RB has a head of steam moving forward instead of standing there (or slowing moving forward) and waiting to see if they are the runner or if the QB is keeping the ball. The Z/R was hurting us and not the D. The RB is in fourth gear: enough to hit the like and drive a defender backward but slow enough to make a move into a hole that opens up.

Totally agree, unless there are receivers that really stress the defense and a mobile QB, what is the point of the standing read handoff honestly? What is it even accomplishing besides making our linemen hold blocks longer and confusion for the RB's etc.

 

[KnightWhoSaysNit]

RUN GAME FILM STUDY vs. SPARTY

..... especially out of Pistol where Allar can turn his back to the D, hand-off, get the RB going downhill, instead of having a read at the mesh point in shotgun.

The pistol still had Allar rather flat-footed. I want to see him moving as if he was under center. The reason is that it sets up the run-fake and lets Allar get deeper quicker. He can also roll out easier with the defense moving in the other direction. In short, the defense must be more apprehensive and stay put. This was one of the issues raised by Joel Klatt. It's one thing to have your back to the defense with ball hidden. It's another to have some momentum for both the back and the quarterback. I do think this would help Allar's rhythm as well, and quite a lot.

The differences between Allen and Singleton, as we had already known, were again rather clear from this game. Allen the more powerful, able to drag tacklers. Singleton faster, needs a seam, but a breakaway threat. Hopefully our new OC will know how to exploit that better. They should work on blocking and receiving during the offseason and learn to become a two-back set. That would be powerful.

Regarding the zone read and Allar's lack of a threat to run, that read really needs to be a run-pass option, not a run option. There is still a place for it, just far less prominent in the offense.

 

[The Spin Meister]

Just to be a Debbie Downer….watch the two Sparty D tackles. They have no lateral movement. Several times could have made a hit at the LOS but were too slow getting there. Their whole front seven looked like they had lead shoes on. Not a good team at all.

 

[Obliviax]

Just to be a Debbie Downer….watch the two Sparty D tackles. They have no lateral movement. Several times could have made a hit at the LOS but were too slow getting there. Their whole front seven looked like the had lead shoes on. Not agood team at all.

Agreed. I saw that as well plus the DE/OLB not setting the edge.

Regardless, Sparty's D was no worse than Inidana's or Illinois where we didn't run well. There is no quick fix in finding a way to beat tOSU and UM.

 

[lazydave841]

we lowered the number of zone/read plays.

And we actually used 2 or 3 RPOs. Allar looked very good making the hand off or pull/throw read. Quick, short pass that is either open based on coverage or you let the back keep it seems to suit him much better than him reading whether to hand off or keep.

Additionally, we have Beau. If you want to hit them with effective and 100% threatening zone read, he is your man. Yes, they know it's coming, but they still have to stop it.

 

[LMTLION]

And we actually used 2 or 3 RPOs. Allar looked very good making the hand off or pull/throw read. Quick, short pass that is either open based on coverage or you let the back keep it seems to suit him much better than him reading whether to hand off or keep.

Additionally, we have Beau. If you want to hit them with effective and 100% threatening zone read, he is your man. Yes, they know it's coming, but they still have to stop it.

I would actually give Beau 5 - 8 prime time snaps per game with Allar on the sideline (with Allar at wr we are essentially playing one man down) and allow Beau to have full latitude to run, hand-off, or pass on each play.

 

[Obliviax]

I would actually give Beau 5 - 8 prime time snaps per game with Allar on the sideline (with Allar at wr we are essentially playing one man down) and allow Beau to have full latitude to run, hand-off, or pass on each play.

how are Beau's receiving skills? He's very quick. I can see him lining up in the slot so the D doesn't know he is going to take a snap until after they shift. And when they don't shift, he could be a serviceable slot receiver.

 

[lazydave841]

I would actually give Beau 5 - 8 prime time snaps per game with Allar on the sideline (with Allar at wr we are essentially playing one man down) and allow Beau to have full latitude to run, hand-off, or pass on each play.

I hate giving Michigan credit, but they gave Orji (I think that's his name) 2 snaps vs OSU and he got 1, maybe 2 first downs while in the game. I think game flow is very dependent. I like Beau in the red zone as well.

Biggest agreement is taking Allar out.

 

[Obliviax]

I hate giving Michigan credit, but they gave Orji (I think that's his name) 2 snaps vs OSU and he got 1, maybe 2 first downs while in the game. I think game flow is very dependent. I like Beau in the red zone as well.

Biggest agreement is taking Allar out.

I don't agree at all. Teams are rarely good with two QBs. I think MY had no idea what to do with a QB whose skill set for passing was off the charts while his running ability is so-so. I will say that DA is great at QB sneaks with his size and strength.

I want to see PSU commit to either Beau or Drew, period. Build the offense around the kid. I think Beau can be a good changeup but I wouldn't be committed to that.

 

[lazydave841]

I don't agree at all. Teams are rarely good with two QBs. I think MY had no idea what to do with a QB whose skill set for passing was off the charts while his running ability is so-so. I will say that DA is great at QB sneaks with his size and strength.

I want to see PSU commit to either Beau or Drew, period. Build the offense around the kid. I think Beau can be a good changeup but I wouldn't be committed to that.

I don't think it needs used on a weekly basis. I'm just a firm believer in being able to be multiple in what you can do. Kind of like our T Formation. And even the way they evolved it to a 2 RB with a split WR, but still ran the ball in the similar fashion.

 

[Obliviax]

I don't think it needs used on a weekly basis. I'm just a firm believer in being able to be multiple in what you can do. Kind of like our T Formation. And even the way they evolved it to a 2 RB with a split WR, but still ran the ball in the similar fashion.

fair enough.

I was watching the UM vs tOSU game and thought about the balance between being who you are and adjusting to taking what the D gave you. UM simply dominated against tOSU and PSU with their running game. The OL and Corum, specifically. I also thought of this watching the Browns coaches panic at halftime and trying to change based on what Denver was doing. It occurred to me that being a championship team means exerting your will and tweaking the plan based on the defense. Not changing, but flexing, at least on offense.

Lesser teams make major changes knowing that strenth-on-strength, they will lose. Championship teams say "here I am, try to stop me." Teams trying to move up, like both PSU and the Browns, often panic. PSU needs to decide who is their QB and challenge people to beat them.

Moving forward, we will have to fully developed and potential A-A running backs. We then can compliment them with a running QB or a passing QB. I like the idea of a passing QB to make sure the D has to defend the entire field. Beau may be a great passer, haven't seen it yet, but if he is medium to poor, the D's will cheat up and play to stop the run.

 

[lazydave841]

UM simply dominated against tOSU and PSU with their running game. The OL and Corum, specifically.

Corum has excellent vision and patience. His acceleration is great too. He doesn't have the high end gear Edwards does, but he knows how to navigate the mess.

The OL just doesn't seem to give up many negative plays. They just plow you ahead. It's very methodical. Watch most of their passes as well. It's quick stuff or they get JJ out of the pocket. They are content to slowly move the ball and eventually you break for a big play.

I was shocked to see OSU play them so vanilla defensively. I think they should have creeped up some. It's almost like the game plan was "we aren't giving up big plays and letting them score 45 again". In essence, it worked to that degrees. However, they were never a threat to win that game. And I think that killed them.

 

[Obliviax]

Corum has excellent vision and patience. His acceleration is great too. He doesn't have the high end gear Edwards does, but he knows how to navigate the mess.

The OL just doesn't seem to give up many negative plays. They just plow you ahead. It's very methodical. Watch most of their passes as well. It's quick stuff or they get JJ out of the pocket. They are content to slowly move the ball and eventually you break for a big play.

I was shocked to see OSU play them so vanilla defensively. I think they should have creeped up some. It's almost like the game plan was "we aren't giving up big plays and letting them score 45 again". In essence, it worked to that degrees. However, they were never a threat to win that game. And I think that killed them.

Agreed. But in the end, it was having an experienced QB that won the game for UM. The first tOSU interception was simply a horrible play by the QB. At the same time, the INT that ended the game was another forced throw that was a really bad decision. They had first and ten at the UM 37 with around :30 seconds. An incomplete pass and they still have 3 downs and :25. A ten yard out and two passes into the endzone would have been the ideal ending.

 

[BBHorn86]

Corum has excellent vision and patience. His acceleration is great too. He doesn't have the high end gear Edwards does, but he knows how to navigate the mess.

The OL just doesn't seem to give up many negative plays. They just plow you ahead. It's very methodical. Watch most of their passes as well. It's quick stuff or they get JJ out of the pocket. They are content to slowly move the ball and eventually you break for a big play.

I was shocked to see OSU play them so vanilla defensively. I think they should have creeped up some. It's almost like the game plan was "we aren't giving up big plays and letting them score 45 again". In essence, it worked to that degrees. However, they were never a threat to win that game. And I think that killed them.

Agree with your assessment of the OSU defensive approach against U-M. Ironically had they pulled out a 31-30 victory they would be hailing the philosophy a smashing success! Plays still need to be made on the field by the players and Michigan has had the best of those the last 3 seasons. It took OSU a decade to move on from John Cooper because of Michigan losses. Interested to see how much rope they give Ryan Day.

 

[lazydave841]

But in the end, it was having an experienced QB that won the game for UM

Bingo. McCarthy didn't force anything and they seldom asked him to throw anything dangerous.

Agree with your assessment of the OSU defensive approach against U-M. Ironically had they pulled out a 31-30 victory they would be hailing the philosophy a smashing success! Plays still need to be made on the field by the players and Michigan has had the best of those the last 3 seasons. It took OSU a decade to move on from John Cooper because of Michigan losses. Interested to see how much rope they give Ryan Day.

For everyone who got upset at Franklin for eventually going for it on 4th down, this game is what conservative and playing it safe looks like.

 

[Obliviax]

Bingo. McCarthy didn't force anything and they seldom asked him to throw anything dangerous.



For everyone who got upset at Franklin for eventually going for it on 4th down, this game is what conservative and playing it safe looks like.

here is a really good article on this regarding Day and tOSU before the half. They had it fourth and two and decided to try a 53-yard FG rather than go for it and give UM at the 36 with about a minute left in the half. It was really cold and the kid's longest FG made was less than 50. He ran the clock down to :03 and kicked. He'd have been better off to run it down to :25 and go for it. A first down stops the clock and has him at or inside the 30 yard line with the best WR corp in the NCAA.

Instead, they miss the FG and have no mo going into the half.

Wasserman: Ryan Day loses sight of who he is when he coaches against Michigan

Day is 56-7 and had Ohio State on the edge of winning a national title a year ago. But that doesn't matter to many Buckeyes fans.

theathletic.com

 

[lazydave841]

here is a really good article on this regarding Day and tOSU before the half. They had it fourth and two and decided to try a 53-yard FG rather than go for it and give UM at the 36 with about a minute left in the half. It was really cold and the kid's longest FG made was less than 50. He ran the clock down to :03 and kicked. He'd have been better off to run it down to :25 and go for it. A first down stops the clock and has him at or inside the 30 yard line with the best WR corp in the NCAA.

Instead, they miss the FG and have no mo going into the half.

Wasserman: Ryan Day loses sight of who he is when he coaches against Michigan

Day is 56-7 and had Ohio State on the edge of winning a national title a year ago. But that doesn't matter to many Buckeyes fans.

theathletic.com

It is dead on. I said it in another reply: this is what the conservative approach looks like. Day played close to the vest. He took no risks. And they were never a threat to win the game.

Moore took 3 4th down risks. I don't remember any of them being considerably tough or long, but they weren't gimmes.