ADVERTISEMENT

Depth

RoarLions1

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2012
9,849
17,643
1
Discussing the overall depth of the 2018-19 team would be interesting. The roster is up, the weight class changes are answered, and the season is right around the corner.

My thought is that this team could be the most-balanced top-to-bottom, of any that Cael has had. Then there's the question of bench strength. Pretty good too, imo, at many weights.
 
  • Like
Reactions: diggerpup
Discussing the overall depth of the 2018-19 team would be interesting. The roster is up, the weight class changes are answered, and the season is right around the corner.

My thought is that this team could be the most-balanced top-to-bottom, of any that Cael has had. Then there's the question of bench strength. Pretty good too, imo, at many weights.

Absolutely. There should be no "holes" this season for probably the first time in Cael's career at PSU - and, as you point out, some quality depth at several of the weights. But it's been working toward that for a few years.
 
  • Like
Reactions: nitlion6
I was discussing dimensions and their adjectives with my 8year olds this past week, and sports rosters came up as an example. We talked about football & basketball and how the talent of non-starters at different positions was often referred to as depth, how one team has recruited so well that they're "two-deep at every position." But also noted how rarely we hear the term breadth used in sports to refer to the quantity of those positions. With hoops' 5 starters, we revert to singling them out ("they're strong at the 2 and the 3, but weak at the 4") and in football, we lump the positions into unit groups ("they're talented at WR & RB, but are weak on the Oline").

When we got to wrestling, my kid pointed out that the "positions" were the weight classes and all the skills were similar regardless of "position".

Not sure where I'm going with that other than to point out that depth and breadth of a wrestling lineup are two different things, but at Penn State, each semantic is at play. The depth is represented by the deep pool of talented wrestlers who could be in the room at any one time (with college kids and NLWC guys) and in the college lineup alone, we've had quite a bit of depth at some weights lately, even when there lacked a bit of breadth enough to cover over weights with point-scorers at Nationals. 197 was deep for us last year, 174 in 2017, 149 in 2014. But in each of those years, the talent wasn't spread as broadly across the 10 weight classes as it looks to be this year.

And yet the depth remains! One of Teasdale or Teske won't start this year. Same for Berge & Verkleeren. Mason Manville's going to burn his first year of eligibility and looks to be a longshot to start for PSU in March. One of Nevills or Cassar won't.

But yeah, back to breadth, despite not yet having appeared in D1 comp, you'd have to guess Teasdale or Teske & RBY, all 4x State Champions, have a really good chance to qualify for and win 3 or 4 or more matches at Nationals. Throw in the two world medalists competing for 149, and the proven All-Americans at the other 7 weights (3 of them 2x Champs, another a 2x Finalist) and you'd have to agree with Roar that this year's squad has a ton of balanced breadth.
 
It will be a surprise if we don't qualify all 10 wrestlers.

I'm pretty sure 2013 and 2014 are the only years Cael has taken a full squad to NCAAs.
 
  • Like
Reactions: diggerpup
Success in the lower weights are being projected based on HS results, this is concerning to start the season. If Teasdale and RBY both start I expect some growing pains. From 141-HWT we're as solid as you can get.
 
Success in the lower weights are being projected based on HS results, this is concerning to start the season. If Teasdale and RBY both start I expect some growing pains. From 141-HWT we're as solid as you can get.

Based on our history I feel pretty confident our Fr will do okay.

Cael has sent 8 true Fr to Big Tens so far. All but 1 qualified and 4 became AAs.

I'll set the over under for FR qualifiers at 2.5, AAs at 1.5.
 
Last edited:
Just in case a few didn't notice. It did take 8 scoring wrestlers last year to win a championship.

Good health across the board and this year 9 scorers is a solid possibility with 10 not necessarily far fetched.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Dogwelder
I have to agree, this is the first year where I feel we have a little 'insurance' so to speak.

I think Carl's philosophy is a few elite guys are a stronger recipe for success at Nationals than broad but low AA depth - i.e one 20+ pointer is better than three 5 point kids, but to be honest it came close to coming back and biting us with the Nolf and Voldemort injuries.

In the age of 9.9 I am sure this is a hotly debated topic in recruiting, as you can't give 15 guys full rides. Even so I have a feeling few of our guys get full rides anyway maybe more like 75% to our hammers. I am sure dedicating a thread to nothing but scholy distribution strategy would be a good one.

tOSU was incredibly deep last year, OSU the year prior, and tOSU and Iowa will be going forward... but in those past examples despite amazingly strong top to bottom strength, we beat them and won it with only 8 guys.

I have high hopes for our 125-133, 149 all being at least low AA's which is no small task given the strength of several of those classes, but it will be nice going in with 10 legit qualifiers and at least some protection from injury.

Next year I think I will go back to being a little uneasy again.
 
I have to agree, this is the first year where I feel we have a little 'insurance' so to speak.

I think Carl's philosophy is a few elite guys are a stronger recipe for success at Nationals than broad but low AA depth - i.e one 20+ pointer is better than three 5 point kids, but to be honest it came close to coming back and biting us with the Nolf and Voldemort injuries.

In the age of 9.9 I am sure this is a hotly debated topic in recruiting, as you can't give 15 guys full rides. Even so I have a feeling few of our guys get full rides anyway maybe more like 75% to our hammers. I am sure dedicating a thread to nothing but scholy distribution strategy would be a good one.

tOSU was incredibly deep last year, OSU the year prior, and tOSU and Iowa will be going forward... but in those past examples despite amazingly strong top to bottom strength, we beat them and won it with only 8 guys.

I have high hopes for our 125-133, 149 all being at least low AA's which is no small task given the strength of several of those classes, but it will be nice going in with 10 legit qualifiers and at least some protection from injury.

Next year I think I will go back to being a little uneasy again.
My guess is by midseason next year you will wondering what you were feeling uneasy about.
 
Based on our history I feel pretty confident our Fr will do okay.

Cael has sent 8 true Fr to Big Tens so far. All but 1 qualified and 4 became AAs.

I'll set the over under for FR qualifiers at 2.5, AAs at 1.5.

Exactly, and I'll take the over on both of those!

I mean, raising 'questions' on dudes with zero D1 experience is legit, responsible even. But swapping in 'concerning', imo, is not. Go back to Tomasello's first year and there's enough of a track record now that elite utes these days hit the D1 comp circuit running.

The B1G will probably earn 8-10 spots at 125 and 6-9 (nice) at 133. I don't see how any of our three 4x State Champs get soo overwhelmed that they can't win enough bouts at B1Gs to earn one of those. Injury's the only thing that can stop Berge or Verkleeren from qualifying, and even then, bam, in steps the other.

I just think we're way past the old mode of thinking that projections of quality performances from TRFR & RSFR elite studs is out of line or premature.

"Questions"? Of course.
"Need to see more." Naturally.

"Concerned" that PSU is starting FR at 3 weights? Concerned about what? That they might not be able to navigate B1Gs in Minneapolis and get to Pittsburgh? C'mon man.

Concerned that they can't win two matches in the upper bracket in Pittsburgh OR that they can't reach the R12 in the consis? C'mon man.

Concerned that they might have a tough Quarterfinals match that they can't win? Ok.

Concerned that they then also meet another insurmountable foe in the R12? Eh, maybe. Fine. Conservative fandom does need *some* reasonable outlet.
 
looked into this a bit, and I missed a few guys I'm sure but PSU's blue chip FR/TFR results have been incredible. The worst performer was Gulibon at 20-15 with a tournament appearance.

Gulibon 20-15 (1-2)
Megaludis 28-8 (2nd)
A. Alton 30-10 (R12)
D. Alton 30-6 (3rd)
Hall 31-3 (1st)
Retherford 33-3 (5th)
Taylor 38-1 (2nd)
Ruth 38-2 (3rd)
Nolf 33-2 (2nd)
Nickal 33-2 (2nd)
Joseph 22-4 (1st)


So no pressure Teasdale, RBY or Bergeleeren, all that is expected is a high AA finish.
 
looked into this a bit, and I missed a few guys I'm sure but PSU's blue chip FR/TFR results have been incredible. The worst performer was Gulibon at 20-15 with a tournament appearance.

Gulibon 20-15 (1-2)
Megaludis 28-8 (2nd)
A. Alton 30-10 (R12)
D. Alton 30-6 (3rd)
Hall 31-3 (1st)
Retherford 33-3 (5th)
Taylor 38-1 (2nd)
Ruth 38-2 (3rd)
Nolf 33-2 (2nd)
Nickal 33-2 (2nd)
Joseph 22-4 (1st)


So no pressure Teasdale, RBY or Bergeleeren, all that is expected is a high AA finish.
Morgan was 1-2 as a TRFR.
 
looked into this a bit, and I missed a few guys I'm sure but PSU's blue chip FR/TFR results have been incredible. The worst performer was Gulibon at 20-15 with a tournament appearance.

Gulibon 20-15 (1-2)
Megaludis 28-8 (2nd)
A. Alton 30-10 (R12)
D. Alton 30-6 (3rd)
Hall 31-3 (1st)
Retherford 33-3 (5th)
Taylor 38-1 (2nd)
Ruth 38-2 (3rd)
Nolf 33-2 (2nd)
Nickal 33-2 (2nd)
Joseph 22-4 (1st)

So no pressure Teasdale, RBY or Bergeleeren, all that is expected is a high AA finish.

What a list, thanks! Dylan & Ruth each lost in the Qtrs, before winning 4 to finish 3rd, but Nico, Hall, DT, Nolf, Nickal & Joseph all went undefeated in the Semis. The only loss there? Eventual 3x Champ Retherford.

Extra rec for Bergeleeren.
 
What a list, thanks! Dylan & Ruth each lost in the Qtrs, before winning 4 to finish 3rd, but Nico, Hall, DT, Nolf, Nickal & Joseph all went undefeated in the Semis. The only loss there? Eventual 3x Champ Retherford.

Extra rec for Bergeleeren.
And it took someone the caliber of Logan Steiber to give Zain his only NCAA championship round loss.
 
Last edited:
looked into this a bit, and I missed a few guys I'm sure but PSU's blue chip FR/TFR results have been incredible. The worst performer was Gulibon at 20-15 with a tournament appearance.

Gulibon 20-15 (1-2)
Megaludis 28-8 (2nd)
A. Alton 30-10 (R12)
D. Alton 30-6 (3rd)
Hall 31-3 (1st)
Retherford 33-3 (5th)
Taylor 38-1 (2nd)
Ruth 38-2 (3rd)
Nolf 33-2 (2nd)
Nickal 33-2 (2nd)
Joseph 22-4 (1st)


So no pressure Teasdale, RBY or Bergeleeren, all that is expected is a high AA finish.
Who were true freshmen? That’s the comparison. McIntosh, Megaludis, AA, Hall, and Gulibon?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dogwelder
Who were true freshmen? That’s the comparison. McIntosh, Megaludis, AA, Hall, and Gulibon?

True Fr at Bigs

A Alton, Ruggear, McIntosh, Nico, Zain, Hall, Suriano, Lee.

RS Fr at Bigs

Ruth, Taylor, Vollrath, D Alton, Conaway, Gulibon, McCutcheon, Moss, Nickal, Nolf, Nevills, Law, Joseph.
 
May I remind you fellas once again...the goal is the all-time scoring record.
Surely by now, you are not getting excited about merely winning another NCAA championship.
Point taken, but I don’t want to get to that point if I can help it. It’s sad that ‘Bama can’t fill their stadium for their home games. Success of this type should never be taken for granted. For us to get the record this year, I feel like someone will have to be a “surprise” finalist. Seems most likely that would be Shakur, perhaps Berge. I guess if they both get 3rd that’d be another path.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dogwelder
May I remind you fellas once again...the goal is the all-time scoring record.
Surely by now, you are not getting excited about merely winning another NCAA championship.
The goal is do what hasn't been done before. Win a team national championship, with 10 AAs and at least have a freaking finalist preferably a champion or 4 or 5.

I am OK with the number one Cornhusker fan still having bragging rights on the only team to win a team championship with no finalists.
 
For us to get the record this year, I feel like someone will have to be a “surprise” finalist. Seems most likely that would be Shakur, perhaps Berge. I guess if they both get 3rd that’d be another path.

Shakur seems like a good possibility. I'm also expecting a big year from Nick Lee.
 
  • Like
Reactions: nerfstate
Getting 8 finalists is not likely. However, it's my opinion that everyone of the last 8 weights is legitimately a potential finalist.
There will be ten studs Wrestling for PSU this year. Two true freshmen and a redshirt freshman. All 3 have AA potential and maybe more. Pair them with the seven returning starters and it might be the best 10 man lineup Cael has ever assembled. Should be a fun year and can’t wait for the finals in Pburgh.
 
There will be ten studs Wrestling for PSU this year. Two true freshmen and a redshirt freshman. All 3 have AA potential and maybe more. Pair them with the seven returning starters and it might be the best 10 man lineup Cael has ever assembled. Should be a fun year and can’t wait for the finals in Pburgh.
Could be.
I wasn't trying to dismiss anybody. The first two weights, based on high school success and the staff's development track record makes me believe that good health from top to bottom and Minnesota's 10AA achievement could maybe be duplicated, but improved with a number of finalists and champions.
 
  • Like
Reactions: jtothemfp
You guys are making it hard for me to stay grounded.

Kent State , Kent State, Kent State :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Afw6006
I was discussing dimensions and their adjectives with my 8year olds this past week, and sports rosters came up as an example. We talked about football & basketball and how the talent of non-starters at different positions was often referred to as depth, how one team has recruited so well that they're "two-deep at every position." But also noted how rarely we hear the term breadth used in sports to refer to the quantity of those positions. With hoops' 5 starters, we revert to singling them out ("they're strong at the 2 and the 3, but weak at the 4") and in football, we lump the positions into unit groups ("they're talented at WR & RB, but are weak on the Oline").

When we got to wrestling, my kid pointed out that the "positions" were the weight classes and all the skills were similar regardless of "position".

Not sure where I'm going with that other than to point out that depth and breadth of a wrestling lineup are two different things, but at Penn State, each semantic is at play. The depth is represented by the deep pool of talented wrestlers who could be in the room at any one time (with college kids and NLWC guys) and in the college lineup alone, we've had quite a bit of depth at some weights lately, even when there lacked a bit of breadth enough to cover over weights with point-scorers at Nationals. 197 was deep for us last year, 174 in 2017, 149 in 2014. But in each of those years, the talent wasn't spread as broadly across the 10 weight classes as it looks to be this year.

And yet the depth remains! One of Teasdale or Teske won't start this year. Same for Berge & Verkleeren. Mason Manville's going to burn his first year of eligibility and looks to be a longshot to start for PSU in March. One of Nevills or Cassar won't.

But yeah, back to breadth, despite not yet having appeared in D1 comp, you'd have to guess Teasdale or Teske & RBY, all 4x State Champions, have a really good chance to qualify for and win 3 or 4 or more matches at Nationals. Throw in the two world medalists competing for 149, and the proven All-Americans at the other 7 weights (3 of them 2x Champs, another a 2x Finalist) and you'd have to agree with Roar that this year's squad has a ton of balanced breadth.
Read jto's post several times...

The "breadth" and "depth" words are perfect. Breadth, in my words, as talent top-to-bottom. Depth meaning talent within each weight class.

Cael & Co.'s recruiting has, in this fan's mind, resulted in a 2018-19 team that appears to be it's best, breadth and depth-wise, which was the reason for the original post...to get other fan's thoughts.

Barring injury, the team breadth is excellent. What about depth, in the event of an unforeseen event? The two toughest weight classes, imo, for depth, 125 and 285 seem ok, best ever for us, in fact.
 
Read jto's post several times...

The "breadth" and "depth" words are perfect. Breadth, in my words, as talent top-to-bottom. Depth meaning talent within each weight class.

Cael & Co.'s recruiting has, in this fan's mind, resulted in a 2018-19 team that appears to be it's best, breadth and depth-wise, which was the reason for the original post...to get other fan's thoughts.

Barring injury, the team breadth is excellent. What about depth, in the event of an unforeseen event? The two toughest weight classes, imo, for depth, 125 and 285 seem ok, best ever for us, in fact.


285 for certain. 149/157 also has guys (pipher/bergerleeren) capable of winning matches in the event of an injury. 125 (teske) has the accolades but no proven commodities. Other weights are more vulnerable - I'm hoping Manville has made a step forward to cover us on the upper weights
 
Read jto's post several times...

The "breadth" and "depth" words are perfect. Breadth, in my words, as talent top-to-bottom. Depth meaning talent within each weight class.

Cael & Co.'s recruiting has, in this fan's mind, resulted in a 2018-19 team that appears to be it's best, breadth and depth-wise, which was the reason for the original post...to get other fan's thoughts.

Barring injury, the team breadth is excellent. What about depth, in the event of an unforeseen event? The two toughest weight classes, imo, for depth, 125 and 285 seem ok, best ever for us, in fact.

Thanks for the discussion topics, Roar.

I guess to answer "unforeseen event", we have to do some more parsing...into, say:
1. Nationals
2. Duals

And also...Time, as in when did the unforeseen event occur.

For depth talented enough to replace a starter & successfully navigate B1Gs enough to still earn one of the qualifier spots that starter had already earned for the conf at that weight, we're looking at those you named:
125 Teske/Teasdale
149 Bergeleeren
285 Nevills/Cassar

Is it outrageous to add:
174 Manville, for Hall?
157 Could Pipher scoop one of the last slots if Nolf went out?
141 Dom G, for Nick Lee?

Those are prob our most talented non-starters, right? Well, who are enrolled....

[Enter Father Time, stage right]

Say this hypothetical unforeseen event occurs first semester, could one of our talented Greyshirts, who've been rumored to be residing in State College, have enough time/interest/do it for the team attitude, to become enrolled and begin competing in Semester 2?

184 Brooks (another 4x State Champ, which I'd forgotten amidst his world-level accolades) hasn't relocated to SC yet; he's still doing the cycling through the CO OTC, go win a world medal, come back home to Southern, Southern PA (we 717'ers have decided to usurp Hagerstown now, thanks to Brooks), then back to CO, with tentative plans to rock up in SC sometime next summer (pending Freestyle circuit skej & results again).

165 Could Joe Lee quickly enroll, and sub in for Vincenzo?

285 Unforeseen events would be tragic if both Nick Nevills & Cassar needed to replaced, but could Seth Nevills (yet another 4x State Champ; that's 5 in this year's recruiting class, if you're counting) do the same?

197 Any rumors as to where Michael Beard is residing during his first post-HS year, while not competing & while postponing the start of his NCAA eligibility clock?

That all only touches on our quote unquote elite depth, and in the context of B1Gs and subbing in late to either earn a B1G spot at that weight or to place high enough to qualify in a spot earned by a departed starter.

Duals, I'd guess we have a ton of 'room guys' capable of all sorts of things sometimes required in a Dual Meet:
- go out & fight hard
- minimize Bonus earned by opponent
- Win
Depends on the weight class & particular rosters, but Kent State, Bucknell, Buffalo, Sparty, Indiana, Purdue, NW all could have enough relative weaknesses in their own lineups such that an Austin Clabaugh, a Jack Davis, a Mason Lindenmuth, a Pat Higgins, a Luke Gardner, a Brian Friery, an Austin Hoopes or a James Hoeg could go out in a dual and 'perform well for the team.'
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dogwelder
Based on our history I feel pretty confident our Fr will do okay.

Cael has sent 8 true Fr to Big Tens so far. All but 1 qualified and 4 became AAs.

I'll set the over under for FR qualifiers at 2.5, AAs at 1.5.

Perfect lines. I'd wage the over on Qualifiers, and Under on AAs.
 
...just a note: ...
...in 1953 Penn State won the NCAA Championship with only 5 scorers ...
...1 Champion @190(Samson)
...1 runner-up @ 130(Dick Lemyre)
...3 thirds @ 137(Maurey), 147(Don Frey) and 167(Joe Lemyre)
 
ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT