Funny, I don't remember any concern about the livelihoods of coaches, students, or programs being sacrificed in a rush to judgment about 12 years ago this week. There was certainly no consideration given to due process at that point.
Harbaugh done?
- Thread starter IANit
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Not as good as Harvard. But better than most Ivy Law schools (if you can trust USNews).
USNews&WorldReport Law School Rankings
Ivan, where have you been? Be curious to hear your thoughts on all of this. You've generally been a courteous poster.
Looks like we have to wait until Wednesday to see what the Big Ten does. It seems like this could spread to other Big Ten programs. Stay tuned!
Better. Um lawyers actually practice law, rather than wanting to become policy people or academics.
exactly...let's see what teams had a staffer texting about in person advance scouting against UM...
lol, go touch the grass bro, stallions done broke you, lolCry, whine, stomp your feet..it is not this..65 times. Let the dirt fly.
I'll touch the grass if you can stop Jim/Connor from touching the glass, particularly the big red button.
There wasn't anything to waive. The conference isn't a state actor, so Due Process doesn't apply as far as I'm aware.
They are basically asking for the mercy which we weren't extended. I have no problem with Harbaugh being suspended if it prevents Michigan from cheating its way to a national title. He's going down in terms of being Michigan's head coach, it's just a matter of when and what happens to the wins he's had.
On the other hand, what I would really like to see is Harbaugh's suspension delayed and for CJF to step up and coach his team to go out and take this win from them. That would be far more punishment to Michigan and its fans right now than a suspension. I am afraid that a win with Harbaugh not on the sideline will be seen as tainted.
Fitzgerald's lawsuit case will be important in this regard. The "should have known" angle is reasonable- but is it legal? Lotsa $ and precedent on the line.
FWIW my guy said all the top agents of the day were the same. They personally never instruct or provided $ to college athletes to recruit for their client base. But someone with ties does....and the top dogs get the wealth.
Some folks are teflon...nothing sticks. It would be nice to see UM get whatever is deserved. We have been in the crosshairs of the powers that be for a situation unrelated to the field of play. UM cheated. Repeatedly. And they won games they hadn't in the recent past. Is that fair?
"If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'!"
We (meaning our leaders) didn't want mercy. Also, everything I've seen states "reasonable timetable" which isn't mercy. Michigan has the right to question the authority of that decision. There's documents for a very specific reason. I'm not convinced Harbaugh's done after the NCAA findings. I thought he was prior to today but not until after the season. Now I have no idea. That wasn't what i was expecting at all.
We agree on the last paragraph 100%.
One (anonymous, of course) Big Ten coach stated that he felt having opponents' signs was worth 21 points per game. I haven't noticed any of the Vegas betting lines moving 21 points since this story broke.
It is true that Michigan beat Ohio State a couple of times, but that doesn't really prove anything. Ohio State just hasn't had much of a run defense the past two seasons.
Honestly, it doesn’t matter how many point it’s worth or isn’t worth.
Respectfully disagree. It sort of does.
Some penalties are five yards. Some get you bounced from further play.
and the difference between a 5 yard penalty and one that gets you bounced from further play is not always correlated to how many points the infraction is worth.
You can get bounced for a dead ball foul that has no impact on the field.
If other conference members are engaged in wholesale sign swapping, getting signs via video may not be seen as the most serious of football crimes. An infraction, yes. But not the biggest scandal ever that Paul Finebaum is declaring.
We may know more on Wednesday. Stay tuned...
It's not though. Everyone was wrong with what they did to us and a rush to judgment in any scenario is wrong. Even if someone hates the program.
Like I'd love to see ND crash and burn but still would want a legit investigation first. Although they hired a coach that is going to destroy them anyway.
If it’s really not a big deal then Michigan and the staff and Conor stalions should have no issues being completely forthcoming.
But do they have any incentive to do so?
That's what confuses me most. Same with CMU. Why would anyone cooperate? They gain nothing.
ND paid the family something like a million bucks and that was it.
The ND athletic department was responsible. There were specific wind warning numbers printed on the scissor lift. Wind gusts that day exceeded the max by about 10-15 mph.
The woman who killed herself after being sexually assaulted by Prince Shembo was worse IMO. She reported the attack to the ND police. The ND police refused to seriously investigate. Distraught, she killed herself.
Both were horrific for different reasons. Kelly should have been charged criminally for ordering that kid up in a scissor lift under those conditions. Kid even tweeted that he was going to die.
School cared more about Manti Teo's dead fake girlfriend.
C'mon guys, the B1G and NCAA are responsible for maintaining the integrity of the sport. As horrible as your examples are and as horrible as the Sandusky case was none of those 3 have anything to do with making sure the sport and the games are conducted fairly.
All 3 of those examples are police /criminal issues and I would make the case are examples of police failures not necessarily University failures.
I can't see allowing the people who were perpetuating the cheating being allowed to continue and taint the entire 2023 season.
If you want to invoke "due process" suspend Harbaugh and the coordinators WITH PAY pending a full investigation. there is certainly enough evidence at this time to take that action.
The NCAA informed the Big Ten that they have seen zero evidence that Harbaugh was involved. So, at least for the time being, there goes your "perpetuating" charge.
Just guessing this could be Michigan’s current POV:
— Top priority is to save this season. The school knows the program is probably toast for next year. Push hard for a delay until after the season is complete. With some luck, team could play for (and possibly win) a national championship before getting punished.
— Harbaugh departs after the season, likely for an NFL gig similar to the move made by Pete Carroll. Michigan sacrifices a few members of the coaching staff to ice the cake.
— Michigan then pleads for mercy from the NCAA, claiming all the bad actors are gone and any severe sanctions would only hurt innocent players and incoming coaches.
— Top priority is to save this season. The school knows the program is probably toast for next year. Push hard for a delay until after the season is complete. With some luck, team could play for (and possibly win) a national championship before getting punished.
— Harbaugh departs after the season, likely for an NFL gig similar to the move made by Pete Carroll. Michigan sacrifices a few members of the coaching staff to ice the cake.
— Michigan then pleads for mercy from the NCAA, claiming all the bad actors are gone and any severe sanctions would only hurt innocent players and incoming coaches.
I don't think Michigan will beg. I think they believe they have more power than the NCAA and the Big Ten so theyll continue their current path.
I've said all along I don't think anything major happens not because I don't think it should or don't want it to but because I don't believe the NCAA is relevant. The Big Ten taking action won't go over well with FOX NBC CBS. I'm not even convinced Harbaugh leaves at this point which I thought he would not long ago.
The lack of NCAA findings tying him to these accusations isn't good for those expecting Michigan's death. It's why I've been trying to set realistic expectations.
My guess...the NCAA suspends Harbaugh for LOIC for 2-3 games next seasons, a fine and Michigan loses a handful of scholarships. The Big Ten accepts that punishment as does Michigan. No post season ban. Everyone then accepts the NCAA has zero power and hopeful it dies.
To me, this has nothing to do with Michigan and everything to do with the NCAA.
We all realize the NCAA findings weren't helpful at all for the hope the Big Ten would act, right? And if the Big Ten caters to Michigan like many claim, why would they take action?
Any major program I'd say the same. The sport isn't about fairness or even competition in 2023. It's a big business focused on money. And it's been that way for decades. They're just more obvious about it now.
First of all, i'll believe that when I see it.
Secondly I thought the new rule says the HC is responsible REGARDLESS of his immediate knowledge.
Thirdly, the guys I really want suspended are the Coordinators. Is the NCAA also going to say they didn't know either.
Finally, head football coaches are among the most anal group of people there are. They have analytics. for every football situation imaginable. Is the NCAA to have us believe some low level staffer the coaches barely know is allowed to roam the sidelines and call plays? Good grief.
The NCAA does have a rule regarding LOIC regardless of whether or not the HC knew but isn't that a low level violation? That's why some of us wanted a long investigation to PROVE he knew. A slap on the wrist isn't anything.
Exactly.
Rece Davis said it well yesterday: "It may not be Harbaugh's fault...but it is his responsibility."
The idea that a low-level staffer broke league rules in organizing a vast and costly spying apparatus...without the knowledge of the head coach...doesn't pass the Giggle Test.
Either Harbaugh is lying...or he doesn't have control of his program. The NCAA has a term for that -- "lack of institutional control" -- and it's a punishable offense.
If the league enacted a post-season ban on Michigan, that would preclude them from playing in the CCG. Which would mean (I assume) that the second place team (PSU or OSU) would represent the east. So I don't think the scenario you describe above is possible (unless the league waits until after the CCG to say "no post-season for UM", but that's seems idiotic, even for the Big Ten)
Definitely. I mean weirder things have happened, but a team from the West has never won (Wisconsin won twice but they were Leaders/Legends back then).
Huge problem that has to have league officials concerned…if they do nothing this season and MeCheaters is in the playoffs the cheating scandal will be a huge part of the story.
It will be covered in depth prior to first game and will be a massive if they get to the title game.
Does the league really want this deep, dark stain to be the storyline of the playoffs?
if UM goes 12-0 and gets banned from the CCG, there is no way the cfp takes a loser 12-1 team that lost to UM..
Valid points for sure.
It's going to be interesting to see what the Big Ten value most here. I'm guessing the networks want no action taken against Michigan as Michigan is one of the cash cows. Does the Big Ten care more about a story or maybe winning a title?
Definitely. I mean weirder things have happened, but a team from the West has never won (Nebraska won twice but they were Leaders/Legends back then).
UM isn't going 12-0, so settle down.
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