Harbaugh done?

[Jerry]

Plausible deniability no longer protects head coaches courtesy of rule changes. The Pat Fitzgerald decision was due in part to this I believe.

If this had happened before 2021 Michigan would have already fired harbaugh, the entire admin is pushing all their chips in to try and secure a natty this year before the house of cards crumbles. They honestly have nothing to lose with this approach except some integrity, which doesn’t seem to be something they value.

Yup, you nailed it.

The irony is that as satisfying as it would be to see Michigan pay a high price this very year, such a thing would also eliminate whatever small chance we have for a playoff bid.

The scenario we need is to beat Michigan on Saturday, then have Michigan beat Ohio State later in the month, then win the tiebreakers to go to the conference championship game, and then win that game.

Even then we might still need some help.

In any case, I really don't see any sanctions this year. "Due process" is Michigan's ace card in the deck.

 

[Sullivan]

I'm not a Michigan fan--I literally don't care what happens to Michigan. Pretending I'm a Michigan fan because I'm not just screaming to sanction them without an investigation or don't pretend we're better than them is insane.
You keep talking about them being in stands indicates they were paid. Michigan can pitch that they went on their own--should we believe that? no but they can say that.
You're simplifying things that involve a ton of legalities. That's the issue. It's not as simple as you want or that it should be.
I've also said Harbaugh should be suspended with pay immediately which no Michigan fan would say but stay stupid.
If it was as simple as you believe it would be done by now.

Michigan can pitch that they went on their own. But the evidence will show otherwise. The people that videotaped the signals can show that not only were they paid by those affiliated with Michigan, but they also transmitted the videos to them. There is probably some other electronic communication (phone records, emails, etc.).

It's pretty simple stuff. It sounds like your team has a pretty weak case.

 

[fastlax16]

Yup, you nailed it.

The irony is that as satisfying as it would be to see Michigan pay a high price this very year, such a thing would also eliminate whatever small chance we have for a playoff bid.

The scenario we need is to beat Michigan on Saturday, then have Michigan beat Ohio State later in the month, then win the tiebreakers to go to the conference championship game, and then win that game.

Even then we might still need some help.

In any case, I really don't see any sanctions this year. "Due process" is Michigan's ace card in the deck.

It's not though. Due process is a legal term and this isn't a court handing out punishment. Ultimately the council of presidents control Michigan's fate.

It's like people crying about freedom of speech infringement from private organizations who ignore the minor detail that freedom of speech protects you from the government.

https://universityethics.psu.edu/assets/uploads/documents/Big10_InstitutionalGovernanceStandards.pdf

Due process never appears in this document.

Formal Actions. In cases where a Member Institution persistently fails to comply with these Conference Standards, the Commissioner may recommend corrective action to the COPC. The COPC may request information from the Member Institution, which the Member Institution will provide, and the Commissioner, may, if so instructed by the COPC, conduct a more formal hearing on the matter. The COPC may adopt the Commissioner’s recommendation or any other corrective action designed to enhance the Member Institution’s compliance with these Conference Standards. Such corrective action may include: i. Financial penalties, including a reduction of Conference distributions. ii. Probation, under terms that reasonably relate to correcting the failure to comply. iii. Suspension from participation in a particular sport, or from membership in general, for a stated period of time. iv. Expulsion from membership.

Ultimately the COPC (Council of Presidents and Chancellors) is going to be the one's to punish the,

 

[ryoder1]

This seems pretty predictable to me. scUM slow plays this and wins with nothing happening until after the season. Even coordinators stay. Jimmah will bolt to the NFL and they are able to clean house. Important note is that scUM will be able to play every game for the remainder of the season including the national championship game (if they make it) with no suspensions of coaches.

The thing I wonder is if they would be punished in terms of losing recruiting scholarships or any post season ban. I think no on the latter and maybe a couple up to 4 for a couple years on the former.

 

[ryoder1]

Yup, you nailed it.

The irony is that as satisfying as it would be to see Michigan pay a high price this very year, such a thing would also eliminate whatever small chance we have for a playoff bid.

The scenario we need is to beat Michigan on Saturday, then have Michigan beat Ohio State later in the month, then win the tiebreakers to go to the conference championship game, and then win that game.

Even then we might still need some help.

In any case, I really don't see any sanctions this year. "Due process" is Michigan's ace card in the deck.

I agree. They are scating through unscathed this season then can politely tell Jimmah to go to the NFL and they easily clean house.

 

[Aardvark86]

48 hours to respond seems reasonable.

Interesting, was just talking to a UM/PSU alum, who said he'd heard mid week suspension of H (the delay could relate to whether it is 2 game, which is by right for the commish, or indefinite, which apparently would require some greater consensus among the schools), followed immediately by a TRO. Related, UM is rattling the saber of discovery about other member schools practices, though I'm not sure when "whataboutism" became a defense to anything. Conjecture, but take it FWIW.

 

[ryoder1]

We can throw a monkey wrench into their whole plan by beating them this weekend.

Never in my almost 50 years of following Penn State football have I loathed an opponent more and wanted us to win as badly than this Saturday.

 

[The Spin Meister]

It's not though. Due process is a legal term and this isn't a court handing out punishment. Ultimately the council of presidents control Michigan's fate.

It's like people crying about freedom of speech infringement from private organizations who ignore the minor detail that freedom of speech protects you from the government.

https://universityethics.psu.edu/assets/uploads/documents/Big10_InstitutionalGovernanceStandards.pdf

Due process never appears in this document.

Formal Actions. In cases where a Member Institution persistently fails to comply with these Conference Standards, the Commissioner may recommend corrective action to the COPC. The COPC may request information from the Member Institution, which the Member Institution will provide, and the Commissioner, may, if so instructed by the COPC, conduct a more formal hearing on the matter. The COPC may adopt the Commissioner’s recommendation or any other corrective action designed to enhance the Member Institution’s compliance with these Conference Standards. Such corrective action may include: i. Financial penalties, including a reduction of Conference distributions. ii. Probation, under terms that reasonably relate to correcting the failure to comply. iii. Suspension from participation in a particular sport, or from membership in general, for a stated period of time. iv. Expulsion from membership.

Ultimately the COPC (Council of Presidents and Chancellors) is going to be the one's to punish the,

Yep, whatever‘due process’ they are entitled to is the process laid out by the conference , not any legal system.

And even in the legal system not run by George Soros a judge has the option of locking up a perp long before any due process is completed. All depends on the strength of the evidence.

And the evidence as we know it is pretty strong here.

 

[The Spin Meister]

Interesting, was just talking to a UM/PSU alum, who said he'd heard mid week suspension of H (the delay could relate to whether it is 2 game, which is by right for the commish, or indefinite, which apparently would require some greater consensus among the schools), followed immediately by a TRO. Related, UM is rattling the saber of discovery about other member schools practices, though I'm not sure when "whataboutism" became a defense to anything. Conjecture, but take it FWIW.

Said discovery is not about whataboutism but is not so subtle blackmail… shut up or we bring you all down.

That Pandora’s Box thingy….

 

[LandoComando]

Michigan can pitch that they went on their own. But the evidence will show otherwise. The people that videotaped the signals can show that not only were they paid by those affiliated with Michigan, but they also transmitted the videos to them. There is probably some other electronic communication (phone records, emails, etc.).

It's pretty simple stuff. It sounds like your team has a pretty weak case.

You're losing credibility by claiming I'm a Michigan fan. I think the investigation will prove they're guilty. It's just not a 1 day process.

 

[LandoComando]

"Cheating is complicated" -- LandoComando 11/6/23

Proving guilt is complicated

 

[Jerry]

It's not though. Due process is a legal term and this isn't a court handing out punishment. Ultimately the council of presidents control Michigan's fate.

It's like people crying about freedom of speech infringement from private organizations who ignore the minor detail that freedom of speech protects you from the government.

https://universityethics.psu.edu/assets/uploads/documents/Big10_InstitutionalGovernanceStandards.pdf

Due process never appears in this document.

Formal Actions. In cases where a Member Institution persistently fails to comply with these Conference Standards, the Commissioner may recommend corrective action to the COPC. The COPC may request information from the Member Institution, which the Member Institution will provide, and the Commissioner, may, if so instructed by the COPC, conduct a more formal hearing on the matter. The COPC may adopt the Commissioner’s recommendation or any other corrective action designed to enhance the Member Institution’s compliance with these Conference Standards. Such corrective action may include: i. Financial penalties, including a reduction of Conference distributions. ii. Probation, under terms that reasonably relate to correcting the failure to comply. iii. Suspension from participation in a particular sport, or from membership in general, for a stated period of time. iv. Expulsion from membership.

Ultimately the COPC (Council of Presidents and Chancellors) is going to be the one's to punish the,

Fair point, it isn't a matter of law...until Michigan makes it one, which the school is clearly positioning itself to do.

And when it's brought in front of a court, as will happen if the league brings down the hammer before the end of the season, believe me, the term "due process" will be front and center.

In fact, Michigan's President telegraphed this in an e-mail to the conference commissioner, which was leaked to ESPN and reported by that network on Saturday:

>It’s precisely at these times -- when all key facts are not known but others are all too comfortable offering strongly held opinions -- that it is essential for everyone to ensure that investigations are conducted fairly and that conclusions are based on what actually happened...The reputation and livelihoods of coaches, students, and programs cannot be sacrificed in a rush to judgment, no matter how many and how loudly people protest otherwise. Due process matters. . . . We, as would any other member of the Big10, deserve nothing less. Our students, our coaches, our program -- all are entitled to a fair, deliberate, thoughtful process.<<

 

[fastlax16]

You're losing credibility by claiming I'm a Michigan fan. I think the investigation will prove they're guilty. It's just not a 1 day process.

It also doesn't need to be a several month process, especially in cases where there is solid evidence.

 

[Sullivan]

Proving guilt is complicated

Not when you have a cooperating witness.

 

[PAgeologist]

At least one person has come forward and indicated he was paid by someone affiliated with the Michigan program to videotape the signals.

Unnamed person claims he was paid to tape signals of Michigan opponents

Someone has come forward, sort of, to admit that he was paid by Michigan staffer Connor Stalions to record the signals of an upcoming Wolverines opponent.

www.nbcsports.com

This appears to be the way to solve this. Get the low level guys to crack. With all the money transactions having some sort of trail, it can't be that difficult to track where all the money is coming from.

There are tons of pictures of Stallions standing near both of the coordinators during games. They obviously knew. And do we really think that Jimmy didn't know? He never bothered asking why a low level guy in Stallions is next to both coordinators during games? He never saw the cheat sheets?

Does this go higher to the Athletic Department administration? Where did the money to conduct this come from? Tickets, travel, hotel, food, etc...

Justice would be the more Michigan pushes back, the harsher the penalty when it's all proven. The BIG/NCAA should tell Michigan that if they go to court and lose, their penalties triple. Let Michigan call that bluff.

 

[fastlax16]

Fair point, it isn't a matter of law...until Michigan makes it one, which the school is clearly positioning itself to do.

And when it's brought in front of a court, as will happen if the league brings down the hammer before the end of the season, believe me, the term "due process" will be front and center.

In fact, Michigan's President telegraphed this in an e-mail to the conference commissioner, which was leaked to ESPN and reported by that network on Saturday:

>It’s precisely at these times -- when all key facts are not known but others are all too comfortable offering strongly held opinions -- that it is essential for everyone to ensure that investigations are conducted fairly and that conclusions are based on what actually happened...The reputation and livelihoods of coaches, students, and programs cannot be sacrificed in a rush to judgment, no matter how many and how loudly people protest otherwise. Due process matters. . . . We, as would any other member of the Big10, deserve nothing less. Our students, our coaches, our program -- all are entitled to a fair, deliberate, thoughtful process.<<

Ono's letter was a PR maneuver intended for consumption by Michigan stakeholders, now he gets to look like he's fighting the good fight. It wouldn't have been leaked so quickly otherwise.

Filing a lawsuit and actually getting an injunction are not the same. The commissioner has the authority to suspend for two games and the COPC has the authority to suspend indefinitely. This has been going on for a couple of weeks now, there's nothing to show that they're not being afforded a fair, deliberate and thoughtful process. The evidence they have appears to be damning, so how many days, weeks or months would such a process really need to be if the proof is all there, verified and real?

 

[LandoComando]

It also doesn't need to be a several month process, especially in cases where there is solid evidence.

Agreed but you have to give Michigan time to review though so 2-3 months is likely if the Big Ten is afraid of going to court.

 

[LandoComando]

Not when you have a cooperating witness.

Is Stalions cooperating? Pretending that's not a problem is foolish. Again, we get to where you want to get. It just won't happen overnight like you want. There's attorneys involved.

 

[PSU2UNC]

Unfortunately UM has the edge and will sue the living daylights out of the conference and the commish based on due process. Nevada Buck be damned. Just read the release from the UM President. He all but threatens the conference if they do not allow for due process. Suspend coaches pending investigation… it will not happen with 2 of the top ten games of the year coming up and potentially the game of the decade in three weeks. Fox is doing the Motumbo index finger at the commish.

What in the Big Ten bylaws makes you think this violates due process?

So yes, Michigan can sue for an injunction, but there has to be a basis for that suit. The Big Ten rules allow up to a 2 game suspension just at the behest of the Commish and longer is allowed if voted on by internal advisory committee (not the actual name, but official name escapes me). So it doesn't seem like Michigan would have any basis for a lawsuit.

 

[PAgeologist]

Is Stalions cooperating? Pretending that's not a problem is foolish. Again, we get to where you want to get. It just won't happen overnight like you want. There's attorneys involved.

If Stallions isn't cooperating, I'd ship him to the boys in Vegas. They don't like cheaters.

 

[LandoComando]

If Stallions isn't cooperating, I'd ship him to the boys in Vegas. They don't like cheaters.

Lol nothing wrong with that...fully support that

 

[bluehair666]

The proof seems like the easy part. There is video footage for all of the games. The people stealing the signs are sitting right behind the team bench. There are fans all around the people stealing the signals that probably also have photos of the people sitting in the seats. When people come to Penn State games and sit next to season ticket holders, people take notice.

There is also a money trail (electronic or checks) from within the Michigan program for at least 35 games for tickets to the games, payment for services, etc.

The only question is what is the level of penalties that need to be addressed. Does it include past games, future games, suspension, fines, etc.

where is this money trail?..has not been reported anywhere, you're either lying or stupid, maybe both

 

[bluehair666]

Plausible deniability no longer protects head coaches courtesy of rule changes. The Pat Fitzgerald decision was due in part to this I believe.

If this had happened before 2021 Michigan would have already fired harbaugh, the entire admin is pushing all their chips in to try and secure a natty this year before the house of cards crumbles. They honestly have nothing to lose with this approach except some integrity, which doesn’t seem to be something they value.

that's an ncaa rule change, not applicable as a big ten rule

 

[bluehair666]

At least one person has come forward and indicated he was paid by someone affiliated with the Michigan program to videotape the signals.

Unnamed person claims he was paid to tape signals of Michigan opponents

Someone has come forward, sort of, to admit that he was paid by Michigan staffer Connor Stalions to record the signals of an upcoming Wolverines opponent.

www.nbcsports.com

that's stallions connection, said stallions paid him..do better

 

[Erial_Lion]

where is this money trail?..has not been reported anywhere, you're either lying or stupid, maybe both

Are you assuming that Stalions did purchase all of these tickets, and did give them to people to go record games? If yes, then either a) he was doing it all out of his own pocket (which still would result in some type of money trail). Or b) he being reimbursed by someone for it. There will be some type of money trail, it just comes down to how far it goes.

 

[PAgeologist]

We all know, you can't do most of the transactions required to pull this off with cash. So there is an electronic trail. Question is, would the NCAA and BIG need court orders to get records of transactions with airlines, credit cards, ticket facilities, hotels, etc.?

 

[Jerry]

Ono's letter was a PR maneuver intended for consumption by Michigan stakeholders, now he gets to look like he's fighting the good fight. It wouldn't have been leaked so quickly otherwise.

Filing a lawsuit and actually getting an injunction are not the same. The commissioner has the authority to suspend for two games and the COPC has the authority to suspend indefinitely. This has been going on for a couple of weeks now, there's nothing to show that they're not being afforded a fair, deliberate and thoughtful process. The evidence they have appears to be damning, so how many days, weeks or months would such a process really need to be if the proof is all there, verified and real?

I think it may partly be a PR maneuver, but more than that, I think he's telegraphing the legal argument that Michigan intends to make if severe sanctions are imposed by the league before the end of the season. In court, the conference's case would be far from a slam dunk.

By the way, I don't consider a 2-game suspension for Harbaugh to be "severe." I think Michigan would take such a deal in a minute if that were the end of the matter.

All this said, don't get me wrong. I think Michigan is guilty as hell and should pay the price. But I can't see it happening this year.

In any event, you gotta love the chutzpah: every conference school deserves and would receive due process, says Ono. Except for Penn State of course. In our case, justice by media lynch mob was just fine.

 

[bluehair666]

It also doesn't need to be a several month process, especially in cases where there is solid evidence.

KU basketball case took over 6 years, and that was with KU staff admitting actual crimes on an fbi wiretap...you know nothing, lol

 

[bluehair666]

Ono's letter was a PR maneuver intended for consumption by Michigan stakeholders, now he gets to look like he's fighting the good fight. It wouldn't have been leaked so quickly otherwise.

Filing a lawsuit and actually getting an injunction are not the same. The commissioner has the authority to suspend for two games and the COPC has the authority to suspend indefinitely. This has been going on for a couple of weeks now, there's nothing to show that they're not being afforded a fair, deliberate and thoughtful process. The evidence they have appears to be damning, so how many days, weeks or months would such a process really need to be if the proof is all there, verified and real?

the big ten hasn't even started an investigation, and hasn't notified UM of anything officially..so far, everything has been done word of mouth..clearly you're stupid

 

[PAgeologist]

I just caught Necessary Roughness on TV the other day. I envisioned that being Michigan.

 

[bluehair666]

Are you assuming that Stalions did purchase all of these tickets, and did give them to people to go record games? If yes, then either a) he was doing it all out of his own pocket (which still would result in some type of money trail). Or b) he being reimbursed by someone for it. There will be some type of money trail, it just comes down to how far it goes.

the poster clearly stated that there was an established money trail linked to the school..other than stallions, he is completely wrong

 

[Erial_Lion]

I just caught Necessary Roughness on TV the other day. I envisioned that being Michigan.

Now there is a kicker worth having a sleepover to recruit

 

[Erial_Lion]

the poster clearly stated that there was an established money trail linked to the school..other than stallions, he is completely wrong

I mean, Stalions is part of the school in this instance.

 

[LionFan87b]

Is Stalions cooperating? Pretending that's not a problem is foolish. Again, we get to where you want to get. It just won't happen overnight like you want. There's attorneys involved.

I don't know all the details of this situation, but you hit an important point here. An attorney's job is the same as most people's jobs: to get paid. Resolving things quickly can work against that.

 

[bluehair666]

I mean, Stalions is part of the school in this instance.

definitely, the dispute is that some are claiming without evidence, that it goes beyond him...if this was directed by any coach above stallions, it would have been done with cash or pre purchased debit cards...the fact that this dummy used his own credit cards and venmo scream that it didn't go higher..

 

[Erial_Lion]

definitely, the dispute is that some are claiming without evidence, that it goes beyond him...if this was directed by any coach above stallions, it would have been done with cash or pre purchased debit cards...the fact that this dummy used his own credit cards and venmo scream that it didn't go higher..

We don’t know yet who else was involved…it would have been a pretty big financial for a guy working as a volunteer and a low level staffer to fund it all on his own dime. But digging into the finances should uncover that (hence the need for an investigation).

 

[Eph97]

Michigan's defense is Harbaugh didn't know. Basically, willful ignorance. He has no clue why Stalions, an analyst, is on the sidelines during games right next to both his coordinators. This Stalions fella must be a savant to be well versed on both sides of the ball. Harbaugh never wondered why UM always manages to call the perfect play in the 2nd half. Also, he never asked where was Stalions during Friday game prep and didn't know he was at the CMU game.

 

[LMTLION]

the big ten hasn't even started an investigation, and hasn't notified UM of anything officially..so far, everything has been done word of mouth..clearly you're stupid

Clearly you are desperate and have no life to be posting on a rival’s message forum!

 

[The Spin Meister]

We all know, you can't do most of the transactions required to pull this off with cash. So there is an electronic trail. Question is, would the NCAA and BIG need court orders to get records of transactions with airlines, credit cards, ticket facilities, hotels, etc.?

This could have been financed in cash by wealthy donors. Pretty stupid to have the school accounts involved….. even for Michigan.

 

[bluehair666]

We don’t know yet who else was involved…it would have been a pretty big financial for a guy working as a volunteer and a low level staffer to fund it all on his own dime. But digging into the finances should uncover that (hence the need for an investigation).

i agree, which is why the big ten should either defer to the ncaa investigation, or begin their own investigation..very few UM fans say no investigation, just that any punishment without an investigation is inappropriate, and in clear violation of the big ten's own policies..