Ham knows a lot about football, but if he said it was a bad call he is wrong.
But it is not surprising that someone would not know the rule ... our coach didn't seem to know the rule either
The “non lateral”
- Thread starter BriarwoodBash
- Start date
But it is not surprising that someone would not know the rule ... our coach didn't seem to know the rule either
It's beyond a doubt now that we have all the evidence in front of us, not necessarily as it was happening live.
With all the evidence posted, apparently the call was right.
It’s still an effing stupid rule. The ball went backwards.
Agreed. It was called correctly but it’s a moronic rule. Intent should have zero bearing
I mean Lewerke intended to actually complete the pass .... so therefore it should be called as such, right ?!
I disagree entirely. If a QB's arm is moving forward in an attempt to complete a downfield pass and the ball or arm is blocked and the ball comes loose, it should be an incomplete pass. If he's trying to complete a lateral, then it should be a fumble not an incomplete pass. That is the way that the rule is written and it makes perfect sense.
It's not the least bit stupid.
I disagree with you 100%. If the intent is to throw the ball forward but it goes backwards it should be considered either a lateral or a fumble. Intent should have nothing to do with the activity of the play.
Actually, it's more like an extension of the FIX to the tuck rule. The fix to the tuck rule now says that if a QB's intention is to abort a pass and tuck the ball but he loses possession, it's a fumble not an incompletion like it used to be.
So if a charging lineman gets his hands in the air and blocks a QB's pass, you want it to be a fumble if the ball lands behind the QB? I don't think so.
No. In that scenario The pass was actually thrown forward... unlike this situation
Honestly, that’s a silly statement if you are talking about a lineman in the QBs face. That is not really relevant to this situation. In what you are are talking about the pass has been defended similar to the way a defensive back would deflect a ball away from a receiver. In this case the ball is never going forward out of the QBs hand. It left the hand going backwards. It should either be a lateral or a fumble, in common sense terms.
Yes. And if it goes forward out of his hands it’s a forward pass. If it goes backwards it should be a lateral
So what happens if msu had a receiver catch the ball as thrown... Then proceed to throw a double pass, since the pass to him went backward .... Based upon how most are interpreting the call, you would have to say the first pass was forward, making the second an illegal forward pass ... So in that case a backward pass is really a forward pass....
I was with you on this until you threw out this strawman argument. In this scenario the ball was moving forward until the ball in free flight contacted an opposing player which redirected its path.
I agree with you.
I was arguing using a "reductio ad absurdum" technigue. Clearly the answer to this question is no, it shouldn't be ruled a fumble. Now that we both agree to that, my next question is suppose the on rushing lineman gets to the QB and blocks the pass before the ball leaves the QB's fingertips and the ball lands behind the QB. Is that an incomplete pass or a fumble?
The correct ruling would have been that the second pass would be an illegal forward pass (at least that's the rule in the NFL - I would assume the NCAA rule is the same although I haven't specifically looked the NCAA rule up).
I answered your question.... is there a response?
I’m Not being a dick. Honest question as you always provide good info. Curious to your answer
And the defensive lineman “snuffs” the ball as his arm is moving forward, forcing the ball to go backwards onto the turf?
That's different than the way that the NCAA and NFL define it. They say a pass begins when the QBs arm starts forward not when the ball leaves his fingertips.
From a previous post "any intentional forward movement of his hand with the ball firmly in his control starts the forward pass."
No, it is what happened. Shaka Toney knocked the ball out of the QB's hand as the QB threw the ball.
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My point is that’s a moronic definition as it does not reward the defender nearly enough
Different. His arm was free and Toney only hit his arm (if I recall correctly. Please correct me if I am wrong.), forcing the ball to go backwards. That should be a fumble or a lateral.
Again, as I said earlier in this thread, by the way the rule is written in what was posted here earlier I agree that it was probably the right call. But if that is the right call, the rule is flawed.
So you want to change the rules to say add a third category to defensive linemen blocking quarterback throws. Currently, blocking a throw is a fumble if the QB's arm is moving backward and it's an incompletion if the QB's arm is moving forward. You would like to add the third category that it's a fumble if the QB's arm is moving forward but the ball lands behind him.
I don't agree with that at all.
Correct he hit the QB's arm as he was throwing the ball dislodging the ball causing it to land behind him.
What's not clear, did Shaka make contact BEFORE his arm begins going forward? All of this rule interpretation talk is assuming Shaka made contact AFTER Lewerke's arm was going forward.No, it is what happened. Shaka Toney knocked the ball out of the QB's hand as the QB threw the ball.
It doesn't matter whether Shaka's initial contact was before or after Lewerke's arm was going forward. What matters is whether the ball was under Lewerke's control as his arm started forward. The arm definitely appear to be moving forward before Lewerke lost control.of the ball. FTR I think his arm started forward before Shaka hit him, but that's not relevant according to the rule.
Adding in a bit and from old school I hate the term Backwards Pass. It just sounds stupid and maybe like flag football? It is a Lateral, The term I always heard until recently. This situation was different for sure I miss the days in College football and the wishbone QB was 20 yds downfeild and lateraled to a trailing back .
OK. Then I think by all common sense, that should either be considered a fumble or a lateral. If his arm wasn’t hit and the ball went backwards, it would be a fumble or a lateral.
What is your rationale (or I suppose, the rationale of the rules makers) for why that should be different?
Then why isn't it grounding, whether intentional or not? Seems like a double standard to me.
So it lands behind the line of scrimmage, with no receiver in the vicinity, but it's not a fumble, and the QB just gets a freebie? Seems quite logical! I mean hey, we have the booth buzzing down during TV timeouts to suggest penalties, so...
So that would make a pump fake a forward pass. Then any pass after that is a second forward pass as the arm moves forward a second time. Interesting.
