The “non lateral”

[Ceasar]

Update from referee for what it is worth: it was a fumble.

QB's hand was not moving toward the LOS when first contact was made by #18. Interestingly, he said it would have absolutely been ruled a fumble initially then reviewed post play to determine whether it was an incomplete pass (I don't recall what the ruling was on the field but he was 100% sure it should have been deemed a fumble initially because instant replay was in effect).

He focused on something I had missed: it doesn't matter if his ARM is moving forward; the question is whether his HAND was moving toward the LOS before #18 touched him. Early in this thread, someone posted the rule but the language was, I believe, the old language that referred to "arm or hand". The new language is below:

When a Team A player is holding the ball to pass it forward toward the neutral zone, any intentional forward movement of his hand with the ball firmly in his control starts the forward pass. If a Team B player contacts the passer or ball after forward movement begins and the ball leaves the passer’s hand, a forward pass is ruled regardless of where the ball strikes the ground or a player (A.R. 2-19-2-I).

The underlined section is actually underlined in the NCAA rulebook because it is "further clarification" of what constitutes a forward pass. My guess is that they removed the language about "arm or hand" so that sole focus was on his hand. This guy is certain this was a fumble. Said it would likely be addressed during the Big 10 referee conference this week and identified as an error on the field (if it was initially ruled a forward pass) and, he believes, an error on the replay review since there is nothing to suggest his hand was moving toward LOS. Remember, the default is fumble because instant replay is effect.

Interesting. FWIW this was the same guy who told me two years ago that the Big 10 would find fault with the ejection of Brandon Smith from the Michigan game and likely apologize to PSU for the error. He was correct on that one for sure.

My recollection is the on-field ruling was that the play was a backward pass/lateral, not a fumble. Interesting comments from your friend.

 

[PSUcup1]

Update from referee for what it is worth: it was a fumble.

QB's hand was not moving toward the LOS when first contact was made by #18. Interestingly, he said it would have absolutely been ruled a fumble initially then reviewed post play to determine whether it was an incomplete pass (I don't recall what the ruling was on the field but he was 100% sure it should have been deemed a fumble initially because instant replay was in effect).

He focused on something I had missed: it doesn't matter if his ARM is moving forward; the question is whether his HAND was moving toward the LOS before #18 touched him. Early in this thread, someone posted the rule but the language was, I believe, the old language that referred to "arm or hand". The new language is below:

When a Team A player is holding the ball to pass it forward toward the neutral zone, any intentional forward movement of his hand with the ball firmly in his control starts the forward pass. If a Team B player contacts the passer or ball after forward movement begins and the ball leaves the passer’s hand, a forward pass is ruled regardless of where the ball strikes the ground or a player (A.R. 2-19-2-I).

The underlined section is actually underlined in the NCAA rulebook because it is "further clarification" of what constitutes a forward pass. My guess is that they removed the language about "arm or hand" so that sole focus was on his hand. This guy is certain this was a fumble. Said it would likely be addressed during the Big 10 referee conference this week and identified as an error on the field (if it was initially ruled a forward pass) and, he believes, an error on the replay review since there is nothing to suggest his hand was moving toward LOS. Remember, the default is fumble because instant replay is effect.

Interesting. FWIW this was the same guy who told me two years ago that the Big 10 would find fault with the ejection of Brandon Smith from the Michigan game and likely apologize to PSU for the error. He was correct on that one for sure.

i recall seeing "2nd and 19" on the TV after the play, so I believe it was initially called a fumble or lateral

 

[UncleLar]

Update from referee for what it is worth: it was a fumble.

QB's hand was not moving toward the LOS when first contact was made by #18. Interestingly, he said it would have absolutely been ruled a fumble initially then reviewed post play to determine whether it was an incomplete pass (I don't recall what the ruling was on the field but he was 100% sure it should have been deemed a fumble initially because instant replay was in effect).

He focused on something I had missed: it doesn't matter if his ARM is moving forward; the question is whether his HAND was moving toward the LOS before #18 touched him. Early in this thread, someone posted the rule but the language was, I believe, the old language that referred to "arm or hand". The new language is below:

When a Team A player is holding the ball to pass it forward toward the neutral zone, any intentional forward movement of his hand with the ball firmly in his control starts the forward pass. If a Team B player contacts the passer or ball after forward movement begins and the ball leaves the passer’s hand, a forward pass is ruled regardless of where the ball strikes the ground or a player (A.R. 2-19-2-I).

The underlined section is actually underlined in the NCAA rulebook because it is "further clarification" of what constitutes a forward pass. My guess is that they removed the language about "arm or hand" so that sole focus was on his hand. This guy is certain this was a fumble. Said it would likely be addressed during the Big 10 referee conference this week and identified as an error on the field (if it was initially ruled a forward pass) and, he believes, an error on the replay review since there is nothing to suggest his hand was moving toward LOS. Remember, the default is fumble because instant replay is effect.

Interesting. FWIW this was the same guy who told me two years ago that the Big 10 would find fault with the ejection of Brandon Smith from the Michigan game and likely apologize to PSU for the error. He was correct on that one for sure.

The initial ruling on the field was backward pass.

Mike Pereira, the former official employed by employed by the BTN, said it would likely be overturned because the arm with the ball was moving forward when the QB was hit, thus it should be ruled a forward pass.. .

The BTN replay officials agreed with Pereira and overturned the backward pass ruling on the field. The on-field official cited the QB's arm moving forward as the reason for the overturn.

I agree with you that several people, perhaps even myself at times, although I have tried to correct myself when I've caught it, have referred to the arm moving forward when the proper criteria is the hand (heck even Pereira and the on field officials said arm, although Pereira clarified it by adding the ball moving forward). I would debate, however, whether the term "forward" means in relation to the line of scrimmage or in relation to the QB's body plane. It is not spelled out anywhere in the rule and I agree that the rule is ambiguous because of that. One of the reasons that I believe it is the body plane and not the line of scrimmage is because there is no possible way for video replay to provide a frame of reference when a QB's arm is moving as to whether it is moving toward the line of scrimmage or not. You can tell in relation to his body but there are many times that you have no way of telling in relation to the line of scrimmage. Also, in every replay I have ever seen where the ball has been knocked out a QB's hand the debate is always about whether the hand has stopped moving backwards and started moving forwards, not has the hand broken the plane parallel to the line of scrimmage and started moving toward the line of scrimmage (or more accurately the neutral zone as it is usually phrased in the rule book).

Also, I am not aware of any rules posting earlier which included the arm moving forward. I believe every one of the half dozen or so postings have all referred to the hand. And lastly, I have copies of old rule books and can tell you that going back to at least 2015 the rule referenced the hand not the arm.