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Super random thought I had a week before Nationals

McScoreley

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Feb 24, 2019
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I know it's been discussed but I can't help but feel Nick Lee's career goes differently if he redshirted. Scary to think because he has been damn good. But a redshirt similar to the Zain redshirt where he just bulks up and I think he would possibly be mentioned as an all timer for us. His relentless pace already compensates for what seems like a lack of size. He still manages to turn some really good opponents.

Hindsight 20/20 we could have afforded to drop his points in 2019 probably (obviously cushion is nice) I think the kid sacrificed a lot always for the team. Can't believe he's technically a senior already and if not for the free year, this would be it for him. Feels just like yesterday his gutsy run in the consolation bracket made the difference in the 2018 Team Race after getting pinned round 1.
 
I know it's been discussed but I can't help but feel Nick Lee's career goes differently if he redshirted. Scary to think because he has been damn good. But a redshirt similar to the Zain redshirt where he just bulks up and I think he would possibly be mentioned as an all timer for us. His relentless pace already compensates for what seems like a lack of size. He still manages to turn some really good opponents.

Hindsight 20/20 we could have afforded to drop his points in 2019 probably (obviously cushion is nice) I think the kid sacrificed a lot always for the team. Can't believe he's technically a senior already and if not for the free year, this would be it for him. Feels just like yesterday his gutsy run in the consolation bracket made the difference in the 2018 Team Race after getting pinned round 1.
An interesting topic. As an old-timer I’ve been giving this a lot of thought, particularly in light of how the sport has shifted over the years from one where freshmen couldn’t wrestle varsity to one with kids who should still be high school gaining early entry into college wrestling rooms plus all the redshirts, grey shirts and Olympic shirts that result in 25 year olds wrestling in college.

Along those lines I have a a couple of general questions for you regarding the concept of “bulking up”
1. For every wrestler that that successfully adds muscle, there seems to be individuals whose bodies don’t respond as well. They have the same access to trainers, diets, coaching, etc., but never seem to progress on the strength front. Do you think there are body types that simply don’t respond the same way others do? And if so, do you think the coaches sense this?
2. Bulking up seems to lead to a higher weight class for many champions - Cassar, Taylor, Dake, while a few others can do it while increasing strength but maintaining the same relative weight is the ticket for others - Nico, Zain, Nolf come to mind. While increasing strength is the real objective for all, do you think there are different outcomes for wrestlers who go down this road?
3. Do you think coaches in general (not just ours) discourage or encourage some wrestlers specific weight where they think they can perform best or the team needs them?
4. As an old-timer I’ve always viewed the original redshirt benefit as having multiple purposes for some - a chance for some (particularly us immature, late bloomers) to focus on improving skills, gaining experience in the room and physically and emotionally maturing before making the transition from wrestling boys to men. Do you think that has changed as a result of high school kids leaving their schools to jump start their training at colleges before they even graduate?
5. With the college wrestling season taking up approximately 4 months, doesn’t the offseason offer sufficient time to hit the weights if you want to improve strength? I hear people say there is no off-season anymore, but doesn’t that imply that if you want to bulk up don’t you have to change your training allocation percentages during the redshirt to focus more on conditioning and strength training than wrestling?

Back to your original question, I think Nick could benefit by taking an off year, but only if he remained focused on adding strength and staying at his current weight as he already has all the other components you mentioned.
 
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Im holding out hope that he bumps up to 149 next year. If 65kg is his target i cant understand why he would want to remain at 141.
 
I know it's been discussed but I can't help but feel Nick Lee's career goes differently if he redshirted. Scary to think because he has been damn good. But a redshirt similar to the Zain redshirt where he just bulks up and I think he would possibly be mentioned as an all timer for us. His relentless pace already compensates for what seems like a lack of size. He still manages to turn some really good opponents.

Hindsight 20/20 we could have afforded to drop his points in 2019 probably (obviously cushion is nice) I think the kid sacrificed a lot always for the team. Can't believe he's technically a senior already and if not for the free year, this would be it for him. Feels just like yesterday his gutsy run in the consolation bracket made the difference in the 2018 Team Race after getting pinned round 1.
Penn State won by 8 points and Nick Lee scored more than 8 points. Without Nick.....they would have finished 2nd. I'll take 5th place for Nick and the NCAA Championship
 
In 2019 PSU won by 41 points
Yes they did. But if Nick Lee redshirted his first year.....there would be no 2018 Championship. Of course.....after re-reading the post I see that he was suggesting Nick redshirt his 2nd year. OOOPS..... So as punishment I will be jumping in front of a bus. :)
 
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I'm not a PSU old-timer, but a relative old-timer Nick Lee fan as I have followed him and his brothers since Nick was in 7th/8th grade. In IN HS Wrestling circles, Nick is widely considered one of the best ever to only win one State Title.
3rd as a frosh, losing only to Senior Stevan Micic
1st as a sophomore
2nd as a Junior losing 6-5 to Chad Red
Spent his senior year training with the NLWC
- Those were his only 2 HS losses. Also note, for those that don't know, Indiana has one state champion among all schools, public or private, enrollments from 200 to 3k+


I have been thinking how Nick would be perceived in PSU history if he ended up with 1 or no National Titles?
 
I'm not a PSU old-timer, but a relative old-timer Nick Lee fan as I have followed him and his brothers since Nick was in 7th/8th grade. In IN HS Wrestling circles, Nick is widely considered one of the best ever to only win one State Title.
3rd as a frosh, losing only to Senior Stevan Micic
1st as a sophomore
2nd as a Junior losing 6-5 to Chad Red
Spent his senior year training with the NLWC
- Those were his only 2 HS losses. Also note, for those that don't know, Indiana has one state champion among all schools, public or private, enrollments from 200 to 3k+


I have been thinking how Nick would be perceived in PSU history if he ended up with 1 or no National Titles?
Problem is with the bar being set so high the last ten years, a wrestler can be a GREAT WRESTLER and kinda be overlooked if they don't win a National Title.
 
Problem is with the bar being set so high the last ten years, a wrestler can be a GREAT WRESTLER and kinda be overlooked if they don't win a National Title.
Then again, are you considered a "great" wrestler if you don't get to the top of the podium. IMHO I would say yes.
 
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Problem is with the bar being set so high the last ten years, a wrestler can be a GREAT WRESTLER and kinda be overlooked if they don't win a National Title.
I read where folks have indicated that a 2-3 time AA is just an "average" career.
 
I read where folks have indicated that a 2-3 time AA is just an "average" career.

Those people are being foolish in their assessment of what constitutes superior wrestling. Would Jordan Conaway be considered an average wrestler? James English? Josh Moore? Clint Musser? The drawback of being so successful the past decade is that fans lose sight of what the program once was: Never bad, but rarely challenging for a national championship. Merely qualifying for the national tournament is a huge accomplishment that most wrestlers never achieve. Of the 330 grapplers that make the field, only 24% earn All-American status.

Semantics perhaps, but the only time we should hear the word 'average' in any NCAA wrestling situation is when it's applied to a certain coach describing the competency of officials.
 
Problem is with the bar being set so high the last ten years, a wrestler can be a GREAT WRESTLER and kinda be overlooked if they don't win a National Title.
Perhaps the problem is an inaccurate metric is being used to measure greatness on what this team's objectives have been redefined to be - winning team titles. While individuals winning titles is one measure of contribution, the more accurate measure might be how many points you contribute in the NCAA's for your team every year.
If memory serves me correct, I thought years ago someone actually calculated individual performance of wrestlers over the years along these lines. This takes into consideration dominance performance in the form of factoring in bonus calculations for the team score. To my way of thinking those wrestlers that produced the most NCAA tournament team points over their career should be considered the greatest. As I recall that measure actually has a strong correlation to individual titles, nonetheless it is the most accurate measure of what this program is really focused on - winning team titles. Maybe a some kind of weighted average per year you were eligible to compete would offer additional insight by including old-timers that couldn't wrestle as freshmen and competed against smaller fields and last years anomaly that rendered wrestlers like Cenzo and Hall unable to compete while still in their prime.
 
Those people are being foolish in their assessment of what constitutes superior wrestling. Would Jordan Conaway be considered an average wrestler? James English? Josh Moore? Clint Musser? The drawback of being so successful the past decade is that fans lose sight of what the program once was: Never bad, but rarely challenging for a national championship. Merely qualifying for the national tournament is a huge accomplishment that most wrestlers never achieve. Of the 330 grapplers that make the field, only 24% earn All-American status.

Semantics perhaps, but the only time we should hear the word 'average' in any NCAA wrestling situation is when it's applied to a certain coach describing the competency of officials.
And if you count 10 starters for each team the number drops to 10% in a normal year. Count all the wrestlers in all the rooms of D1 wrestling, and it's closer to 5%. What about leadership, and setting a good example, or the other intangibles that stand out as great.
 
Yes they did. But if Nick Lee redshirted his first year.....there would be no 2018 Championship. Of course.....after re-reading the post I see that he was suggesting Nick redshirt his 2nd year. OOOPS..... So as punishment I will be jumping in front of a bus. :)
You are good as long as the thing isn't moving.
 
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There is a difference between being a great wrestler and a PSU all-time great. Everyone that starts on the team is a great wrestler. But to be mentioned as one of the greats, the NCAA title is probably going to have to be on the resume. It is part of being associated to such a successful program. Being an all-time great at Pitt doesn't require you to clear that same bar.
But I doubt any of these guys care whether we think they are an "all-time great". I'm sure their goals are loftier than ours.
 
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Problem is with the bar being set so high the last ten years, a wrestler can be a GREAT WRESTLER and kinda be overlooked if they don't win a National Title.
When I think of Nick Lee it makes me think of Morgan McIntosh's career. Just like Nick having McKenna, Yanni and now Eierman/SeaBass to contend with, Morgan had the Kyle Snyder's and Jaden Cox's to deal with. Always been a tough bracket with no easy outs. Both are great wrestlers but their timing at their respective weights has been the issue.
 
There is a difference between being a great wrestler and a PSU all-time great. Everyone that starts on the team is a great wrestler. But to be mentioned as one of the greats, the NCAA title is probably going to have to be on the resume. It is part of being associated to such a successful program. Being an all-time great at Pitt doesn't require you to clear that same bar.
But I doubt any of these guys care whether we think they are an "all-time great". I'm sure their goals are loftier than ours.
Is this anything like a good team wins 8 titles, but a great program wins 1?
 
That was always implied, what did MM wrestle in HS?
BTW, has anyone seen his parents yet??
McIntosh was a HS 189.

The legend of 184 Morgan McIntosh lives on, but in reality it was unlikely for his entire college career. At least not at PSU, where nearly everybody grows into weights.
 
The OP was talking about Lee taking a RS in 2019..... where psu won by 41 points and thus his scoring was not needed
Agreed he was, and I WAS kinda surprised Lee choose not too You woulda though at the time he woulda been considering spending a couple years with his lil brothers on same team.
 
I was wondering this Week how Spencer Lee is doing with the Knee that got tweaked at Big10s? (He never did take Injury Time).

And how our Brady Berge is doing?
 
He could of bulked up anyway without a redshirt. He could easily be a 149 guy by now. I like it tho. These six and seven year guys are a little ridiculous imo.
 
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I read where folks have indicated that a 2-3 time AA is just an "average" career.
How can you not be a great wrestler when you are one of the 8 best college wrestlers in your weight class at a given moment in time? Unless those "folks" who "have indicated that a 2-3 time AA is just an 'average' career, are guys like Cael Sanderson, Dan Gable, etc., which of course they're not, they need to shut the hell up and enjoy watching greatness every March.
 
I was wondering this Week how Spencer Lee is doing with the Knee that got tweaked at Big10s? (He never did take Injury Time).

And how our Brady Berge is doing?
Tom, I expect a presser from Iowa City any moment. And same could be said about State College...
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