So this Phil Steele "stat" on McSorley and 50-50 balls
- Thread starter michnittlion
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I don't.
We had and will continue to have talented WR's who will come down with the ball more times than not on a 'jump-ball' pass; no matter which QB of ours throws it.
Well, at least the 75% statistic got him coming in at #7 in this article.
Congrats Trace.
Chicken or egg? The receivers made plays -- they're SUPPOSED to make those plays. Because they can make those plays, at least some of those throws get made intentionally.
For sure some of the big bombs were desperation -- Irv Charles' catch at Minnesota was kind of a prayer. Maybe so was the Blacknall catch vs Minnesota. But the second one, at least, also involved a coaching call, a good read, and a well run pattern (on the latter catch, I think that was a tremendous blitz pickup from Gesicki, or Trace would have been crushed long before the pattern developed.)
Opposite of your respected opinion sir.
I hear ya my friend.
Remember, I did say this as well sir: "We had and will continue to have talented WR's who will come down with the ball more times than not on a 'jump-ball' pass; no matter which QB of ours throws it."
Well, I'll add a bit. First, with our tall, athletic, and quite talented receivers, I like our chances in any toss-up.
That said... the end of the USC game and what I observed in the BW gave me pause. It's kind of like when you're riding a hot streak at the casino and no matter how you roll, you win many more than you lose.
But what I saw in the BW game was an expectation on TM's part that all he had to do was heave it in the general direction of his guy and it's going to work.
And yeah, that bothers me a bit because every defensive coach out there is planning for it. Our receivers might just be too good and it won't matter... but there is some concern -- on my part.
Then again, we have SB in the backfield and that fixes most things
That said... the end of the USC game and what I observed in the BW gave me pause. It's kind of like when you're riding a hot streak at the casino and no matter how you roll, you win many more than you lose.
But what I saw in the BW game was an expectation on TM's part that all he had to do was heave it in the general direction of his guy and it's going to work.
And yeah, that bothers me a bit because every defensive coach out there is planning for it. Our receivers might just be too good and it won't matter... but there is some concern -- on my part.
Then again, we have SB in the backfield and that fixes most things
Well, I'll add a bit. First, with our tall, athletic, and quite talented receivers, I like our chances in any toss-up.
That said... the end of the USC game and what I observed in the BW gave me pause. It's kind of like when you're riding a hot streak at the casino and no matter how you roll, you win many more than you lose.
But what I saw in the BW game was an expectation on TM's part that all he had to do was heave it in the general direction of his guy and it's going to work.
And yeah, that bothers me a bit because every defensive coach out there is planning for it. Our receivers might just be too good and it won't matter... but there is some concern -- on my part.
Then again, we have SB in the backfield and that fixes most things
But what I saw in the BW game was an expectation on TM's part that all he had to do was heave it in the general direction of his guy and it's going to work.
Winner! Winner!
Well, I'll add a bit. First, with our tall, athletic, and quite talented receivers, I like our chances in any toss-up.
That said... the end of the USC game and what I observed in the BW gave me pause. It's kind of like when you're riding a hot streak at the casino and no matter how you roll, you win many more than you lose.
But what I saw in the BW game was an expectation on TM's part that all he had to do was heave it in the general direction of his guy and it's going to work.
And yeah, that bothers me a bit because every defensive coach out there is planning for it. Our receivers might just be too good and it won't matter... but there is some concern -- on my part.
Then again, we have SB in the backfield and that fixes most things
I've been a reader of this and the "Scout" PSU Board for many years - this one longer as it existed long before the Scout board or even its affiliation with Rivals. Your post got me to comment though as it is so outlandishly absurd and ignorant. Your implication that PSU's offense and Trace McSorley's success - I believe he was the most successful and highest "Deep Ball" completion pct. passer in all of FBS last year - is predicated on "luck" is quite preposterous and shows an extreme lack of knowledge regarding football in general and Joe Moorhead's RPO-Attack Offense specifically.
PSU won both their B1G East Division and the overall B1G Conference Championship in terms of both best record In-Conference (9-1) & winning the B1G CCG. PSU produced these "Accomplishments and Titles" with one of the best, if not the best, Offenses in the Conference. According to bigten.org PSU produced 37 ppg in B1G Games (2nd only to OSU's 38 ppg in B1G Games) and 444 ypg in B1G Games (2nd only to OSU's 458 ypg B1G ypg).....and perhaps most importantly as it relates to this topic, PSU had the #1 Passing Efficiency Rating in B1G Play:
PASS EFFICIENCY G COMP. ATT. INT. PCT. YARDS TD EFFIC.
Penn State 9 128 241 3 53.1 2184 17 150.0
Michigan 9 147 241 5 61.0 1830 11 135.7
Ohio State 9 181 295 4 61.4 1936 15 130.6
Northwestern 9 209 345 6 60.6 2265 17 128.5
Wisconsin 9 116 200 7 58.0 1445 9 126.5
Indiana 9 185 314 12 58.9 2333 12 126.3
Michigan State 9 166 305 8 54.4 2116 14 122.6
Maryland 9 136 234 8 58.1 1519 10 119.9
Iowa 9 122 211 6 57.8 1310 10 119.9
Purdue 9 233 425 18 54.8 2587 20 113
Nebraska 9 138 275 8 50.2 1769 8 108
Minnesota 9 120 229 11 52.4 1523 4 104.4
Illinois 9 121 257 8 47.1 1428 7 96.5
Rutgers 9 112 239 5 46.9 1181 6 92.5
Those numbers are a little hard to read due to the way they copy from bigten.org, but it demonstrates that PSU's passing game was appreciably more efficient than any other in the B1G. One would think that what drives this rating difference is the great TD/INT Ratio, but that is really not the case as PSU's was 17/3, while OSU's was a still outstanding 15/4. What drove PSU's rating so high is the "Yards Per Completion" and "Yards Per Attempt" which are outstanding, while OSU's numbers in these categories are mediocre-to-poor (PSU averaged 17+ yards per completion and over 9+ yards per attempt, while OSU only averaged over 10+ yards per completion and 6+ yards per attempt).
Again, claiming PSU "lucked" their way to all these documented accomplishments including the best passing game in the league in B1G Reg-Season Games is rather preposterous as proven again in the B1G Championship Game where Wisconsin was unable to stop PSU's downfield RPO passing game while selling-out to stop the run.
In an RPO-Attack, every play can be a run or a pass depending on how the defense reacts to the Offensive Alignment. The QB is taught to keep the ball on the RPO "play-action" if the defense is pressing forward and covering all eligible receivers 1-on-1 with no "cover 2" look to at least one side of the field. In addition, the QB is taught to identify the most attractive single-coverage on the defensively weak-side of the field (IOW, the one without the "Cover 2 Safety" which could be both sides) which is generally to the side of the field from which the most defenders are attacking the LOS inside "the box" and often called "the hot read". Lastly, the QB is taught to read the coverage on the "hot read" and throw the ball to the open-area opposite the defender in coverage and the Receiver is taught to read the defender and play in the same manner and "look for the ball" in an area that will be the opposite of where the single coverage defender is at. IOW, if defender's positioning is inside and underneath the receiver, the receiver should expect the ball to be thrown deep & to the outside where only they can get it (reference Gesicki catch or Barkley TD in BCG). If defender is playing deep and to the inside, the Receiver should expect a "back shoulder throw" toward the sideline as we saw many, many times. Etc.... Characterizing a throw into single-coverage just because there is a defender somewhere in the remote vicinity (but on the opposite side of where all these balls were thrown to) as being 50/50 balls as to whether they will be caught or intercepted is inane. Characterizing them as 50/50 whether they will be caught or incomplete is reasonable, but when you're averaging 17+ yards a completion, throw 17 TDs in 9 games and only 3 INTs in those same games, most coaches would be ecstatic to complete 50%, have 50% fall incomplete and effectively none intercepted of their 20+ yard throws! They'd take it all game long......just as PSU did as evidenced by the B1G CG!
In any event, your notion that PSU being the most accomplished team in the B1G last year, the B1G East Division Champs and B1G Conference Champions being predicated on "luck" is quite silly, ignorant and not based on the actual facts of the matter, just as your insinuation that they are rellying on "luck" this year is the same. PSU is not relying on "luck" this year - they're relying on the returning B1G East Division and B1G Conference Champions, who are returning more "starting" and 2-deep talent than any other team in the entire B1G Conference!
Hopefully somebody will remind you of your absurd and silly post at the end of the 2017 season, because your post is pretty pathetic imho in that it attempts to demean PSU athletes & coaches such as Trace McSorley specifically and PSU's offensive accomplishments in general with utterly inaccurate, unsupported, baseless claims and insults. Why that type of disgraceful, insulting, unsupportive and unappreciative "fan behavior" is permitted toward PSU's young-adult student-athletes and Coaches on a PSU-Dedicated "Fan Board" is a bit of mystery.
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Strong analysis. Great "first" post.
Well spoken sir but our eyes doth-not deceive us.
Not pure luck at all but just having very good WR's who indeed make a world of difference sir does help.
Many intangibles do make a successful passing attack.
This IS one of the best board responses.
Yes, the three ingredients to a great passing attack are 1) a great "Gameplan" & Coaching, 2) a good QB capable of "being coached", making the RPO reads, making the RPO throws & implementing the Gameplan in general, AND finally, 3) good WRs capable of "being coached", understanding the Playbook, making the correct read (being in sync with QB), running the correct route including "dynamic adjustments" (being in sync with QB) and finally catching the ball.
An outstanding passing attack needs all three.......and PSU has all three which is why they have one of the best returning offenses in the Country, let alone the B1G.
some people might argue to have a great passing attack, you need great pass protection, but I guess that's not really an element of a passing attack.
What were your eyes telling you on McSorley's 41 yard TD pass in the Rose Bowl to Godwin.
McSorley pinpointed the pass 6 yards deep in the back corner of the endzone where only Godwin could catch it. A 47 yard throw dead on the money while he wasn't even on his feet, and floating sideways to avoid the sack and keep his feet inbounds.
In my eyes, it was probably the single most impressive throw I've ever seen a Penn State QB make.
But I guess that's just luck in your eyes, and the eyes of other B1G fans who like to think Penn State is coming back to earth this year.
Damn, I said all that? I implied our season was based on luck? I hope you enjoyed yourself thoroughly because you've been reading my posts for decades and you know not only don't i think our season was a result of luck but you also know my post this time was more about my concern that a QB can get caught up in the expectation that he can put it up there and yhe odds are with him when he has favorable circumstances and the right go-to guys.
Trace had that last year and as mentioned, has an excellent bunch of receivers to worth with again... so it might repeat itself. But to claim the post was ignorant.. well
jeez man.. nobody is dissing Trace. He made incredible plays last year both with his arm and feet and everybody loves him. But he also threw balls up for grabs at times and our guys grabbed them. Were the odds favorable in most cases? Yup. But not always. There is no Godwin this year but there are some amazingly talented receivers who might turn our to be a more formidable crew and make even more plays. Who knows?
But we won't know that until the season cranks up.
That's not what I said, so why don't you stick to defending your own constant inanities rather than committing the clear "ad hominem logic fallacy" of attempting to put your words into my argument, loser. You clearly are a big fan of the "strawman" - attempting to equate your inserted B with C, just because A is consistent with B. IOW, just because the Passing Attack of JoMo's RPO-Attack is highly successful is not equivalent to saying it is the only type of Passing Attack that can be successful or in any way comparable to saying that a "Traditional Pro-Style" Attack, for instance, and passing game can't be successful with the right coach, gameplan and athletes dimwit.
You clearly aren't a big believer in making "content-based" posts instead preferring to focus on "ad hominem" based rhetoric - I thought that wasn't supposed to be tolerated on this board?
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The poster I was directing my response to said the WRs bail him out, "many, many, times."
That is a diss, is it not?
Yeah, I agree that Trace takes lots of risks. However, I think a lot of those were calculated based on coverages.
To give you another example, a lot of people think Blacknall's 80 yard TD against Wisconsin was a poor, under thrown ball, and more luck by Trace.
Gattis showed the sky view yesterday and where Trace threw that pass was the only opening. Blacknall broke open against the corner and the safety was bearing down on him. It was a wide open part of the field he saw and if Trace doesn't allow Blacknall to come back into the window, then he is getting drilled by the safety.
I call that vision, accuracy, and instincts to put the ball in the open spot. Not a WR bailing him out.
Yes, your implication that PSU's accomplishments last year were primarily based on luck, as well as your insinuation that they will have to rely on the same this year to be just as successful as last year, is both ignorant on its face as well as insulting to PSU student-athletes and their coaches.
I'm of the belief that actual "fans" of PSU student-athletes and coaches give credit and acknowledgement to PSU student-athletes and coaches were credit and acknowledgement are due.......not insulting bull$hit that runs completely contrary to the facts of the matter and are based on nothing more than the supposed-PSU-fan's ignorant, worthless, BS "opinion", but maybe that's just me.
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you say, "In an RPO-Attack, every play can be a run or a pass depending on how the defense reacts to the Offensive Alignment. The QB is taught to keep the ball on the RPO "play-action" if the defense is pressing forward and covering all eligible receivers 1-on-1 with no "cover 2" look to at least one side of the field. In addition, the QB is taught to identify the most attractive single-coverage on the defensively weak-side of the field (IOW, the one without the "Cover 2 Safety" which could be both sides) which is generally to the side of the field from which the most defenders are attacking the LOS inside "the box" and often called "the hot read". Lastly, the QB is taught to read the coverage on the "hot read" and throw the ball to the open-area opposite the defender in coverage and the Receiver is taught to read the defender and play in the same manner and "look for the ball" in an area that will be the opposite of where the single coverage defender is at.
so you being all knowledgeable and stuff, and on this key 3rd and 4 in the Rose bowl, why didn't they do as you said above? it is clear post snap the nickel corner comes on a blitz and blows up the play.
so you being all knowledgeable and stuff, and on this key 3rd and 4 in the Rose bowl, why didn't they do as you said above? it is clear post snap the nickel corner comes on a blitz and blows up the play.
Yes, the three ingredients to a great passing attack are 1) a great "Gameplan" & Coaching, 2) a good QB capable of "being coached", making the RPO reads, making the RPO throws & implementing the Gameplan in general, AND finally, 3) good WRs capable of "being coached", understanding the Playbook, making the correct read (being in sync with QB), running the correct route including "dynamic adjustments" (being in sync with QB) and finally catching the ball.
An outstanding passing attack needs all three.......and PSU has all three which is why they have one of the best returning offenses in the Country, let alone the B1G
That's not what I said, so why don't you stick to defending your own constant inanities rather than committing the clear "ad hominem logic fallacy" of attempting to put your words into my argument, loser. You clearly are a big fan of the "strawman" - attempting to equate your inserted B with C, just because A is consistent with B. IOW, just because the Passing Attack of JoMo's RPO-Attack is highly successful is not equivalent to saying it is the only type of Passing Attack that can be successful or in any way comparable to saying that a "Traditional Pro-Style" Attack, for instance, and passing game can't be successful with the right coach, gameplan and athletes dimwit.
You clearly aren't a big believer in making "content-based" posts instead preferring to focus on "ad hominem" based rhetoric - I thought that wasn't supposed to be tolerated on this board?[/QUOTE]
its not what you said??, this is what you said, 'Yes, the three ingredients to a great passing attack are 1) a great "Gameplan" & Coaching, 2) a good QB capable of "being coached", making the RPO reads, making the RPO throws & implementing the Gameplan in general,.....'
I just asked to if you have to have RPO's in your passing attack, to have a great passing attack, that's all.
You really are a nitwit completely incapable of nothing but "strawman, ad hominem logical fallacy" self-serving bull$hit argumentation. Saying that an "RPO"-Attack ("Run-Pass Option" Attack) has a running playing OR passing play associated with every formation predicated on the QB having the OPTION TO RUN EITHER based on what they "READ" just prior to and just after the snap..... IS NOT EQUIVALENT to saying the QB will make the correct READ EVERY SINGLE TIME you insufferable blathering idiot!
Here was your post prior to this last clear "STRAWMAN ad-hominem logic fallacy" post:
Another attempt on your part to put words into my mouth as I NEVER SAID THAT or anything remotely like it (IOW, another clear bull$hit example of contentless "strawman ad-hominem attack logic fallacy" argumentation). You are not supposed to be able to "flame" and "troll" on this board in this regard which is what making exclusively strawman ad-hominem logic fallacy posts quite clearly is, but your brain is apparently such a small troll brain, you can't even figure that out.
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so, relative to above, you are saying, that TM didn't make the correct read in that situation, is that your statement?
There are exceptions to every rule. I would be surprised if the players had the green light to pass when they are trying to kill clock. Just because it is an RPO based offense does not mean that situational football is thrown out the window. And on that play, TM is reading the opposite side of where the blitz came from on the zone read. USC dialed up the perfect play IMO. If they don't blitz right into it, then I think there is a good chance Barkley gets the first down.
Not only is your post a clear "strawman ad-hominem logical fallacy" form of argumentation, but your notion that ONE FREAKING PLAY and bad read by Trace McSorley makes a seasons worth of statistics that produced the following in regards to the "Passing" portion of PSU's RPO-Attack all "lucky results":
PASS EFFICIENCY G COMP. ATT. INT. PCT. YARDS TD EFFIC.
Penn State 9 128 241 3 53.1 2184 17 150.0
Michigan 9 147 241 5 61.0 1830 11 135.7
Ohio State 9 181 295 4 61.4 1936 15 130.6
Northwestern 9 209 345 6 60.6 2265 17 128.5
Wisconsin 9 116 200 7 58.0 1445 9 126.5
Indiana 9 185 314 12 58.9 2333 12 126.3
Michigan State 9 166 305 8 54.4 2116 14 122.6
Maryland 9 136 234 8 58.1 1519 10 119.9
Iowa 9 122 211 6 57.8 1310 10 119.9
Purdue 9 233 425 18 54.8 2587 20 113
Nebraska 9 138 275 8 50.2 1769 8 108
Minnesota 9 120 229 11 52.4 1523 4 104.4
Illinois 9 121 257 8 47.1 1428 7 96.5
Rutgers 9 112 239 5 46.9 1181 6 92.5
Who knew that every other FBS QB made perfect reads and passes on every single snap last year without exception.....I guess only a football savant troll such as yourself was smart enough to figure this out.
LOLHere troll-boy, let me put it in terms that your homer b1g slack-jaw brain and logical ability can even comprehend..... Trace McSorley and PSU's passing attack really sucked last year, but it sucked one hell of a lot less than all the other b1g programs', and the vast majority of all other FBS programs', passing attacks. Good grief are you an insufferable idiot.
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"Here troll-boy, let me put it in terms that your homer b1g slack-jaw brain and logical ability can even comprehend.....Not only is your post a clear "strawman ad-hominem logical fallacy" form of argumentation, but your notion that ONE FREAKING PLAY and bad read by Trace McSorley makes a seasons worth of statistics that produced the following in regards to the "Passing" portion of PSU's RPO-Attack all "lucky results":
PASS EFFICIENCY G COMP. ATT. INT. PCT. YARDS TD EFFIC.
Penn State 9 128 241 3 53.1 2184 17 150.0
Michigan 9 147 241 5 61.0 1830 11 135.7
Ohio State 9 181 295 4 61.4 1936 15 130.6
Northwestern 9 209 345 6 60.6 2265 17 128.5
Wisconsin 9 116 200 7 58.0 1445 9 126.5
Indiana 9 185 314 12 58.9 2333 12 126.3
Michigan State 9 166 305 8 54.4 2116 14 122.6
Maryland 9 136 234 8 58.1 1519 10 119.9
Iowa 9 122 211 6 57.8 1310 10 119.9
Purdue 9 233 425 18 54.8 2587 20 113
Nebraska 9 138 275 8 50.2 1769 8 108
Minnesota 9 120 229 11 52.4 1523 4 104.4
Illinois 9 121 257 8 47.1 1428 7 96.5
Rutgers 9 112 239 5 46.9 1181 6 92.5
Who knew that every other FBS QB made perfect reads and passes on every single snap last year without exception.....I guess only a football savant troll such as yourself was smart enough to figure this out.
Here troll-boy, let me put it in terms that your homer b1g slack-jaw brain and logical ability can even comprehend..... Trace McSorley and PSU's passing attack really sucked last year, but it sucked one hell of a lot less that all the other b1g programs', and the vast majority of all other FBS programs', passing attacks. Good grief are you an insufferable idiot.
VINTAGE!
Not only is your post a clear "strawman ad-hominem logical fallacy" form of argumentation, but your notion that ONE FREAKING PLAY and bad read by Trace McSorley makes a seasons worth of statistics that produced the following in regards to the "Passing" portion of PSU's RPO-Attack all "lucky results":
PASS EFFICIENCY G COMP. ATT. INT. PCT. YARDS TD EFFIC.
Penn State 9 128 241 3 53.1 2184 17 150.0
Michigan 9 147 241 5 61.0 1830 11 135.7
Ohio State 9 181 295 4 61.4 1936 15 130.6
Northwestern 9 209 345 6 60.6 2265 17 128.5
Wisconsin 9 116 200 7 58.0 1445 9 126.5
Indiana 9 185 314 12 58.9 2333 12 126.3
Michigan State 9 166 305 8 54.4 2116 14 122.6
Maryland 9 136 234 8 58.1 1519 10 119.9
Iowa 9 122 211 6 57.8 1310 10 119.9
Purdue 9 233 425 18 54.8 2587 20 113
Nebraska 9 138 275 8 50.2 1769 8 108
Minnesota 9 120 229 11 52.4 1523 4 104.4
Illinois 9 121 257 8 47.1 1428 7 96.5
Rutgers 9 112 239 5 46.9 1181 6 92.5
Who knew that every other FBS QB made perfect reads and passes on every single snap last year without exception.....I guess only a football savant troll such as yourself was smart enough to figure this out.
Here troll-boy, let me put it in terms that your homer b1g slack-jaw brain and logical ability can even comprehend..... Trace McSorley and PSU's passing attack really sucked last year, but it sucked one hell of a lot less that all the other b1g programs', and the vast majority of all other FBS programs', passing attacks. Good grief are you an insufferable idiot.
speaking of Ad-hominin attacks, but whatever. Here is the difference, you think TM made a bad read, I don't think he even had a read. I think TM was told to hand the ball to SB no matter what, no way they were going to risk an int in that situation, let alone an incomplete pass to stop the clock. So ramble on about whatever you want, but also know not every play is an RPO. Stick to writing prospectus for mutual funds, I am sure you are very good at that.Not only is your post a clear "strawman ad-hominem logical fallacy" form of argumentation, but your notion that ONE FREAKING PLAY and bad read by Trace McSorley makes a seasons worth of statistics that produced the following in regards to the "Passing" portion of PSU's RPO-Attack all "lucky results":
PASS EFFICIENCY G COMP. ATT. INT. PCT. YARDS TD EFFIC.
Penn State 9 128 241 3 53.1 2184 17 150.0
Michigan 9 147 241 5 61.0 1830 11 135.7
Ohio State 9 181 295 4 61.4 1936 15 130.6
Northwestern 9 209 345 6 60.6 2265 17 128.5
Wisconsin 9 116 200 7 58.0 1445 9 126.5
Indiana 9 185 314 12 58.9 2333 12 126.3
Michigan State 9 166 305 8 54.4 2116 14 122.6
Maryland 9 136 234 8 58.1 1519 10 119.9
Iowa 9 122 211 6 57.8 1310 10 119.9
Purdue 9 233 425 18 54.8 2587 20 113
Nebraska 9 138 275 8 50.2 1769 8 108
Minnesota 9 120 229 11 52.4 1523 4 104.4
Illinois 9 121 257 8 47.1 1428 7 96.5
Rutgers 9 112 239 5 46.9 1181 6 92.5
Who knew that every other FBS QB made perfect reads and passes on every single snap last year without exception.....I guess only a football savant troll such as yourself was smart enough to figure this out.
Here troll-boy, let me put it in terms that your homer b1g slack-jaw brain and logical ability can even comprehend..... Trace McSorley and PSU's passing attack really sucked last year, but it sucked one hell of a lot less than all the other b1g programs', and the vast majority of all other FBS programs', passing attacks. Good grief are you an insufferable idiot.
Yes I know that, see my other post. I doubt TM had any read at all, but was told to hand the ball to SB.
I was just trying to see if Buschwood knew that (which of course he doesn't). He likes to think of himself as a great football mind, but if isn't in Football for Dummies, he has no clue except to attack you
Your post was spot on
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Just read the first few posts in this thread. Lots of you guys don't know what the hell you're talking about on 50/50 balls.
No argument from me.. the kid is a special talent. He made plays that left many scratching their heads -- and naturally there will be the 'can he do it again' thing. Given the talented crop of receivers (big, fast, athletic jumpers) -- not to mention a superior OL and amazing RB's -- I think we'll be just fine.
But Godwin turned out to be something far more special than nayone anticipated. If we get that kind of [performance from the others, Trace really could get awayt with just chucking it up there if he wanted to to.. odds would always favor us.
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