OT: Disney Alligator
- Thread starter Black Elmo 2
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I get what you're saying but..........it's Florida. There are gators in all the lakes, rivers, canals, etc. Hell, they even get into people's backyard pools. It's not a matter of "having plenty of notice" gators were there (as if it's some rare or unexpected occurrence). It's more a matter of saying "water is wet" that gators are in lakes in Florida.
The reality here is a screw up on all sides. Why have a resort beach area on a lake with gators (much less the gator sign issue)? That said, the family (from what I've read) is from the USA, has been to Disney a few times so were aware of Florida gators, went out with the kid into knee deep water about 5-10 feet from shore after dusk which is prime feeding time. No one wants to jump on the family because of the horrible events but it was a 'poor decisions all around' case by both Disney and the family IMO.
This happened back in 1993 in JD State Park:
Alligator Kills 10-year-old In South Florida
The Youngster Was Wading When The Reptile Attacked, But Experts Stress That Fatal Incidents Are Rare.
June 20, 1993|By D. Aileen Dodd Fort Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel
HOBE SOUND — A 10-year-old boy on a river outing with his family and friends was mauled to death by an 11 1/2 -foot alligator Saturday after the youngster got out of a canoe to go wading.
Bradley Weidenhamer of Lantana, was on a canoe trip with his parents and some members of his Little League team on the Loxahatchee River in Jonathan Dickinson State Park when the incident occurred shortly after 1:30 p.m.
His parents, Donna and Gary Weidenhamer, and team manager Miguel Estrada were lifting canoes over fallen logs in the river when the boy, a fourth-grader at Lantana Elementary School, strayed away to play in shallow water.
Officials with the state Game and Fresh Water Fish Commission said Bradley was knee-deep in the river, about 20 miles north of Palm Beach, when the gator attacked.
''The alligator . . . took the boy's head in its mouth and pulled him underwater,'' said Lt. Jim Huffstodt, commission public information officer. ''He . . . suffered severe puncture wounds.''
While Bradley's mother and four teammates and about 11 others watched in horror, Gary Weidenhamer and Estrada moved toward the alligator and pounded its head with canoe paddles and tried to pull the boy from the animal's jaws, witnesses told officials.
Weidenhamer grabbed his son, but the alligator pulled him away again and held him underwater for three to five minutes, said Kurt Erhard, a spokesman for the family.
After a second attempt, Weidenhamer freed Bradley from the alligator put his limp body into the canoe. The youngster was bleeding profusely from severe head injuries.
Estrada and Weidenhamer frantically paddled for 20 minutes to reach Trapper Nelson's, a picnic site on the river, where they performed cardiopulmonary resuscitation on the boy and called for help.
Bradley was airlifted to Jupiter Hospital where he was pronounced dead.
This was the first alligator-related death in Florida in five years and the ninth since 1948.
The game and fish commission sent a professional trapper to the park, and the alligator was killed.
''It was an 11 1/2 -footer,'' said commission duty officer Molly Williams. ''It was too big for our scale, but it weighed about 350 to 400 pounds.''
Gary and Donna Weidenhamer declined to comment on the accident.
''They were pretty shaken up,'' Erhard said.
Commission officials said alligator attacks are rare. But most of them occur during the summer months when the animals mate and are protective of their nests.
Alligator Kills 10-year-old In South Florida
The Youngster Was Wading When The Reptile Attacked, But Experts Stress That Fatal Incidents Are Rare.
June 20, 1993|By D. Aileen Dodd Fort Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel
HOBE SOUND — A 10-year-old boy on a river outing with his family and friends was mauled to death by an 11 1/2 -foot alligator Saturday after the youngster got out of a canoe to go wading.
Bradley Weidenhamer of Lantana, was on a canoe trip with his parents and some members of his Little League team on the Loxahatchee River in Jonathan Dickinson State Park when the incident occurred shortly after 1:30 p.m.
His parents, Donna and Gary Weidenhamer, and team manager Miguel Estrada were lifting canoes over fallen logs in the river when the boy, a fourth-grader at Lantana Elementary School, strayed away to play in shallow water.
Officials with the state Game and Fresh Water Fish Commission said Bradley was knee-deep in the river, about 20 miles north of Palm Beach, when the gator attacked.
''The alligator . . . took the boy's head in its mouth and pulled him underwater,'' said Lt. Jim Huffstodt, commission public information officer. ''He . . . suffered severe puncture wounds.''
While Bradley's mother and four teammates and about 11 others watched in horror, Gary Weidenhamer and Estrada moved toward the alligator and pounded its head with canoe paddles and tried to pull the boy from the animal's jaws, witnesses told officials.
Weidenhamer grabbed his son, but the alligator pulled him away again and held him underwater for three to five minutes, said Kurt Erhard, a spokesman for the family.
After a second attempt, Weidenhamer freed Bradley from the alligator put his limp body into the canoe. The youngster was bleeding profusely from severe head injuries.
Estrada and Weidenhamer frantically paddled for 20 minutes to reach Trapper Nelson's, a picnic site on the river, where they performed cardiopulmonary resuscitation on the boy and called for help.
Bradley was airlifted to Jupiter Hospital where he was pronounced dead.
This was the first alligator-related death in Florida in five years and the ninth since 1948.
The game and fish commission sent a professional trapper to the park, and the alligator was killed.
''It was an 11 1/2 -footer,'' said commission duty officer Molly Williams. ''It was too big for our scale, but it weighed about 350 to 400 pounds.''
Gary and Donna Weidenhamer declined to comment on the accident.
''They were pretty shaken up,'' Erhard said.
Commission officials said alligator attacks are rare. But most of them occur during the summer months when the animals mate and are protective of their nests.
I respectully disagree. There is no way that Disney could successfully defend a claim from these parents by arguing that their son's death was an Act of God. Disney had a big hand in causing this kid's death.
Consider. Disney has had multiple former guests tell them that they had spotted gators in this lake and adjacent to this beach. Further, multiple former guests have reported witnessing people feeding gators from the Disney grounds. Disney's response? Continuing to maintain a beach leading right down to the water's edge, dragging it nightly, putting in chaise lounges, tables and umbrellas.. In other words, inviting people to use this beach. No wall or fence at the water's edge, no specific warning about alligators. Just a "No Swimming" sign. .
I guess your lightning analogy would be appropriate if Disney handed its guests long metal poles and told them to go outside during a thunderstorm and wave them around over their heads.
totally agree. I am sure Disney will fork out a few bucks to make this go away, but its really just a series of unfortunate events. you can't account for every possibility, unless this signs are written in paragraphs, then you'll be sued because nobody could be reasonable expected to read and digest all of that information.
bwifan
Well-Known Member
1 thing for folks who live around Orlando... talking to people who grew up in that area said it's common to have sand beaches on the ponds and lakes there since it's not near the ocean.... Is that true? So numerous lakes/ponds around Orlando have sand beaches?
Have you been to this beach? I have. It is very VERY clear there is no swimming. Additionally Disney pulls gators from the water on a regular basis so there are none in guest areas.
I've never seen a "sharks" sign at the beach here in Florida. Yet people get bit several times a year. Some even die.
How do you figure one is different from the other?
If these were guests who were at the park then walked to the water while between parks I think they would have a stronger case. But as it stands they will be able to get money. Just like any other death at Disney.
LdN
bwifan
Well-Known Member
bwifan
Well-Known Member
You beat me to it! LOL
* don't forget the signs about black widows and tarantula and recluse spiders...
Well:
1. This lake is big, but it was man made. Disney owns the whole lake and the surrounding area. Maybe eliminating alligators from invading Disney's lake is virtually impossible, but it is obviously possible to put up a wall or fence to prevent people from going in the water. It is also possible to warn about the presence (whether actual or suspected) of alligators in a man made lake which people might otherwise assume to be devoid of apex predators..Disney is, in virtually all respects, the epitome of a controlled environment. By contrast, no private party owns the ocean or the coastline. How do you fence the entire coastline? No reasonable person could ever enter the ocean believing that there is zero risk of being attacked by a shark.
2. I can't speak for Florida, but California and Australia routinely post "Warning: Shark" signs at beaches where they spot white sharks in the water. Particularly if they are not mere juveniles. Forget the legal niceties for a moment; doesn't that seem like a logical thing to do?
There are shark attacks regularly outside my apartment on the beach. Within 5 miles. I've never seen a shark warning sign anywhere lose to the water. Every once in a while the lifeguards (if they are on duty at the time) will pull people from the water due to a shark sighting.
Most lakes in Florida are man made. They are made because any construction requires a lake nearby for the runoff. Not sure the fact that Disney's was built 70 years ago makes it special.
You have a point with the "reasonable person". However these people were checked into the hotel. They were told multiple times do not go into the water.
LdN
The ocean is not private property. The Disney lake is private. I'm sure liability comes with ownership.
LDN: Are you on the Gulf side of Florida? I have seen footage of people in the water at Gulf beaches with Bull Sharks swimming all around them. Bull Sharks are aggressive and nasty. Blows my mind that there are people stupid enough to do that. It recalls George Carlin's expression about how stupid the average person is, and that half the population is even dumber than that.
I have snorkeled with bulls around Navarre, Pensacola and Fort Pickens. You have to respect them and know what to do. If you're an ass, stay out of the water.
I guess you missed the Disney promotional video which shows kids wading at this very beach. Disney knew, encouraged, and invited people to water's edge knowing it was infested with prehistoric man-eating reptiles laying in wait to attack. I think the least they could have done is warn guests who are paying over $600/night to stay at this luxury hotel that DisneyWorld is home to these vile monsters that might devour your child at any minute.
Bull sharks are also capable of living in brackish and fresh water. There was a River Monsters episode filmed here in FL on the Indian River (brackish). The mommas come in through the inlets, have their pups and go back into the ocean. The pups hang out in the river for a few years before heading out to the ocean. The inlet becomes a shark highway.
What makes you say that? I've not seen it reported anywhere that they were told anything about staying out of the water. There are certainly no signs that state that. Please enlighten us as to your source.
Australia put out nets in the ocean to keep deadly jelly fish from invading swimming areas. These are seasonal invaders and people generally avoid swimming during times they are present.
Are you certain? My source is having visited the parks several times.
What makes you so certain?
I have no idea if this is in fact the case. But if I were Disney's legal counsel, I sure would not want to rely on the word of some hotel employee that he or she gave the requested warning. Could turn into one of those he said/she said pissing contests about whether it happened at all. I would want appropriate signage, at minimum. Maybe a welcome pamphlet or video that could contain some kind of note about the presence of wildlife in the lake.
I won't argue that the parents might have done better. Have their two year old in bed by 9:30. Educate themselves a bit about Florida wildlife. Use the frickin' pool. They will suffer self recrimination for the rest of their lives. But the level of negligence in this case by Disney is just mind blowing. So uncharacteristic of a company that normally thinks of everything when it comes to amusement parks, hotels, and guest amenities.
No I'm in Jacksonville with our friend Felli. There are bites here fairly often.
I was told growing up (and to this day depending on who I talk to) that God has a plan for every single one of us. If this is indeed the case, why is anyone to blame?
If this was truly God's plan, there was nothing anyone could do to stop it.
Serious question. Interested in hearing some answers as to why Disney is at fault if this was God's plan for the young boy.
If this was truly God's plan, there was nothing anyone could do to stop it.
Serious question. Interested in hearing some answers as to why Disney is at fault if this was God's plan for the young boy.
Jim: I'm wondering if that was intended as a serious reply, or as humor. Would you really maintain that the proper response to any case of tragic injury or death, whether caused by negligence or intentional act, is that "it must have been God's plan?"
Regardless of whether or not you're right about this being God's will, legally this doesn't hold water. We're a nation of laws. If you give God's will any legal credence, then you are arguing that there is no free will and then all personal responsibility goes out the window. "The guy ran the red light and ran over that mother and her baby, killed them right there in the intersection." "It's God's will. NEXT!" Doesn't work that way.
I'm willing to bet that some people would say that, then the next day turn around and say someone is to blame.
The point of my post is far from humorous. I'm pointing out that the double standards on this planet drives life batshit crazy.
I attended catholic school for 12 years and that is what I was told every day so why should I believe that anyone else other than God is at fault?
Do I believe that God has a plan for everyone? I'm not going to comment, but I'm willing to bet that some people here posting probably feel that way, yet those same people say disneys to blame.
Just some thought provoking dialogue and curious to hear what people's thoughts are on this if people truly feel that life works that way but why it's also ok to cast blame on Disney.
When I see people getting defensive over my question while completely avoiding it, well, I guess it proves my point that ideals amongst people are twisted.
Can't have t both ways so which way is it. Plan or disneys fault?
Florida statute controls what can be recovered in a wrongful death scenario. See it here. Now, can a lawyer find enough dirt to get a judge to grant an amendment to the complaint for punitive damages so it can go beyond the statute? If so, then look out. We usually value the life of an individual at $1 million. It goes up or down depending on age, income, health, number of dependents, etc.
The other issue to keep in mind is this: Orlando lives off of tourism. I think over 70% of people there depend on tourism to keep the lights on. It may be a hard sell to convince 6 local people to hit a major regional employer for anything over $100 million, even with punitive damages. My guess is settlement of something north of $25 million, but under $50 million. If it were my kid, no amount of money would fix anything; but the lawyers wouldn't let it go to trial once it got over $30 million. The parents are unlikely to want to stay in the news and have it all played out again during a public trial, so they'll settle. Mom and Dad will get their chance to privately yell at someone from Disney during depositions and mediation, so that should put an end to it. Awful situation.
I don't dispute that you have a point to make, Jim, but this thread will take on quite a different tenor if the discussion turns to free will vs. determinism. That discussion could go on for days.
Nothing. You can worship a God and at the same time be made responsible for your own actions. We're not all Reggie Jackson with intentions to kill Queen Elizabeth in "The Naked Gun." We're not puppets.
Agreed. But the common sense versus Disney being at fault issue has gone on for days.
Why can't it be considered a tragic accident? Why must someone always collect millions of dollars?
Don't get me wrong, I feel terrible for the child and his family. Nobody purposely feeds their child to a reptile and I'm sure Disney didn't want this to happen either.
Unfortunately, from Disneys standpoint, it's time for them to consider all guests stupid and illiterate and lacking of common sense.
How about this one... What happens if someone (who doesn't know they're allergic thus is absent of an epi pen) is stung by a bee and has an allergic reaction on disneys property? The idiot argument could be that had Disney not planted flowers there would be no bees and there would not have been a bee sting and hypothetical death never would have happened.
Point is whether the God thing, signs, or whatever, this was an accident. I don't need a sign to tell me to stay out of the water. Apparently some do. Why is stupidity never an excuse?
I hear you. That said, at what point is the father held responsible for his irresponsible actions?
Well....lets see.... maybe its the photos of the beach that don't contain any signs that say stay out of the water. Maybe its the promotional video that Disney themselves produced which shows kids wading in the lagoon at this very beach. Maybe its the fact that dozens of guests have come forward denying they were ever advised of alligator danger or told to stay out of the water. Maybe its the fact that not a single person has come forward to confirm the warning that only you say was given. But you've been to the park several times.... a-ha.
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