OT: Disney Alligator

[LionJim]

I hear you. That said, at what point is the father held responsible for his irresponsible actions?

I don't know if those actions were irresponsible. Regardless, I'm not going to judge the father. Imagine the torment he's putting himself through right now. Every day for the rest of his life he's going to think of how he could have prevented this from happening. That's the definition of hell on earth.

 

[Black Elmo 2]

The only irresponsible one here is the Disney Corp.

 

[coveydidnt]

Well....lets see.... maybe its the photos of the beach that don't contain any signs that say stay out of the water. Maybe its the promotional video that Disney themselves produced which shows kids wading in the lagoon at this very beach. Maybe its the fact that dozens of guests have come forward denying they were ever advised of alligator danger or told to stay out of the water. Maybe its the fact that not a single person has come forward to confirm the warning that only you say was given. But you've been to the park several times.... a-ha.

There also isn't any eyewitness that corrobotates the alligator story. And the body is intact. So how do we know what happened?

 

[irncty]

There also isn't any eyewitness that corrobotates the alligator story. And the body is intact. So how do we know what happened?

It is very common for alligators to drown their prey and tuck it away underwater for a period of time to begin decaying before they eat it. That would explain the 'intact' part.

 

[wbcincy]

How do you know there was only one prior attack (which, BTW, was sufficient to put Disney on notice of the danger)?

Are you relying on what Disney says? Disney is very protective of all information concerning incidents at their parks. You can't just go and look it up. So this "only one prior attack" statement could simply be Disney propaganda.

Then ask yourself how is Disney defining "attack?" Are they only including incidents where a gator caused injury to a guest? Do they consider times when gators were reported to them as having chased guests, hissed at guests, startled guests, were observed on or near beaches and other guest facilities? I suspect there were many more such incidents that Disney chose to ignore.

I admire the Disney success, but they are in deep do-do with this one.

Disney, as with all Florida theme parks, is required to report all incidents involving harm to guests on their property. These reports are discussed regularly in the Orlando papers. You don't have any idea what you're talking about with Disney being protective of into. It's just blatantly false and they'd be paying millions in fines if it weren't.

 

[wbcincy]

As I write this. Disney employees are putting up signs with a warning about both alligators and snakes on them. So, there's that.

Well of course they are. What exactly does that prove, other than they had no choice following this tragedy? You never seem to answer me on this, but should Disney also put up warning signs for every single potential risk that is so remote it occurs one time every 45 years?

 

[demlion]

Well of course they are. What exactly does that prove, other than they had no choice following this tragedy? You never seem to answer me on this, but should Disney also put up warning signs for every single potential risk that is so remote it occurs one time every 45 years?

Thing which will kill 2 year Olds need to be wI thin the knowledge of your guests, their parents. Especially when you have full time employees whose job it is to capture and kill gators, as Disney does. Keep flogging those stats. They are worthless.

 

[wbcincy]

Thing which will kill 2 year Olds need to be wI thin the knowledge of your guests, their parents. Especially when you have full time employees whose job it is to capture and kill gators, as Disney does. Keep flogging those stats. They are worthless.

So yes is your answer. Every business should be required to post warning signs for every risk that could possibly kill someone every 45 years. Got it.

 

[Black Elmo 2]

There also isn't any eyewitness that corrobotates the alligator story. And the body is intact. So how do we know what happened?

Hmmmmm.....you might have a point. Are you thinking something supernatural? Paranormal? Aliens?

 

[Hero17]

Think about it, the court gave an elderly woman close to a million for spilling McDonald's coffee on herself cause it was too hot. How sympathetic will a jury be to this? Disney will probably settle out of court for $10-20 million is my guess.

 

[LafayetteBear]

I hear you. That said, at what point is the father held responsible for his irresponsible actions?

So, Jim: Your apparently religious instincts tell you to put the blame on the father for his irresponsible actions? C'mon. What happened to God's plan?

 

[demlion]

So yes is your answer. Every business should be required to post warning signs for every risk that could possibly kill someone every 45 years. Got it.

It should NEVER happen.
Btw, I caught you out on this 24 million bs once. It's just useless. Alligators, no warnings, it is not a close case.

If the signs would make no difference, why put them up now?

 

[LafayetteBear]

So yes is your answer. Every business should be required to post warning signs for every risk that could possibly kill someone every 45 years. Got it.

No, not every risk. But yes, they DO have to warn against the risk of alligators. Hope that helps.

 

[coveydidnt]

Hmmmmm.....you might have a point. Are you thinking something supernatural? Paranormal? Aliens?

Or, eyes were off the 2 yr old for a few seconds & he slipped and drowned.

It happens everyday somewhere, in bathtubs, ponds, pools, lakes, and puddles.

There's yet no public evidence of an alligator that attacked. 2 year olds need no help to drown.

In fact it has happened at least twice before at Disney without any alligators being implicated.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...dohAAAAIBAJ&sjid=qp8FAAAAIBAJ&pg=1400,3734517

 

[demlion]

No, not every risk. But yes, they DO have to warn against the risk of alligators. Hope that helps.

Haa! And, let us say, other well known sources of sudden death for children.

 

[LafayetteBear]

Haa! And, let us say, other well known sources of sudden death for children.

Dem: SMH, brother. This is not even close from a legal standpoint. And the blaming of the poor parents; that REALLY blows.

 

[jim cummings]

So, Jim: Your apparently religious instincts tell you to put the blame on the father for his irresponsible actions? C'mon. What happened to God's plan?

It's the grand Floridian. You mean to tell me there wasn't a pool to swim or "wade" in? I'm sure his life is upside down but it doesn't change the fact that the guy was an idiot.

Would you let you let your 2 year old wade in a lake after dark in Minnesota?

Do you need a sign to tell you to beware of lions on an African Safari?

The guy is an idiot. Simple.

 

[LafayetteBear]

It's the grand Floridian. You mean to tell me there wasn't a pool to swim or "wade" in? I'm sure his life is upside down but it doesn't change the fact that the guy was an idiot.

Would you let you let your 2 year old wade in a lake after dark in Minnesota?

Do you need a sign to tell you to beware of lions on an African Safari?

The guy is an idiot. Simple.

You have a rewarding career awaiting you in grief counseling....

 

[Black Elmo 2]

The guy is an idiot. Simple.

I am reminded of the old adage: It takes one to know one.

 

[irncty]

It's the grand Floridian. You mean to tell me there wasn't a pool to swim or "wade" in? I'm sure his life is upside down but it doesn't change the fact that the guy was an idiot.

Would you let you let your 2 year old wade in a lake after dark in Minnesota?

Do you need a sign to tell you to beware of lions on an African Safari?

The guy is an idiot. Simple.

Like the article I posted earlier in this thread, go to the kids funeral and tell the dad he's an idiot. See if it helps the situation.

 

[jim cummings]

Like the article I posted earlier in this thread, go to the kids funeral and tell the dad he's an idiot. See if it helps the situation.

I get it. It's always someone else's fault.

 

[jim cummings]

I am reminded of the old adage: It takes one to know one.

And yet you continue to remind me how much of a punk you are.

 

[demlion]

It's the grand Floridian. You mean to tell me there wasn't a pool to swim or "wade" in? I'm sure his life is upside down but it doesn't change the fact that the guy was an idiot.

Would you let you let your 2 year old wade in a lake after dark in Minnesota?

Do you need a sign to tell you to beware of lions on an African Safari?

The guy is an idiot. Simple.

I played with my kids after dark in the water in Canada. Many times. No alligators, no sharks. Unless they put some in and never WARNED me.

 

[LionFan87b]

Think about it, the court gave an elderly woman close to a million for spilling McDonald's coffee on herself cause it was too hot.

That is the most misunderstood case. In order to make coffee, water only needs to be heated to a certain temperature. Normally, if you spill coffee on yourself, it won't be pleasant, but you also won't get third-degree burns. According to the plaintiff, McDonald's heated the water far above what is necessary for coffee, thus causing third-degree burns. The customer was exposed to a risk far beyond what one would reasonably assume when purchasing coffee. If those facts are true, then the decision was fair.

 

[Monlion]

It's the grand Floridian. You mean to tell me there wasn't a pool to swim or "wade" in? I'm sure his life is upside down but it doesn't change the fact that the guy was an idiot.

Would you let you let your 2 year old wade in a lake after dark in Minnesota?

Do you need a sign to tell you to beware of lions on an African Safari?

The guy is an idiot. Simple.

It's Disney world, they purposely create an artificial other worldly environment, why would anyone in a Disney property hotel think there would be alligators in the water that could kill their child? We took our kids to Disney World a half a dozen times, it's set up to make you believe it is a safe fantasy land.

 

[jim cummings]

It's Disney world, they purposely create an artificial other worldly environment, why would anyone in a Disney property hotel think there would be alligators in the water that could kill their child? We took our kids to Disney World a half a dozen times, its set up to make you believe it is a safe fantasy land.

its an amusement park to make KIDS believe it's a safe fantasy land. Nothing on this planet is 100% safe.

If you're gullible enough to let your guard down and let the magic come to life, then you have more faith in others than I do.

How many people enter through disneys gate everyday? How many of those would you say are pedophiles?

A child is abducted/assaulted in the magic kingdom, people will claim Disney didn't do enough to keep kids safe. What could they do?

This whole somebody has to pay for everything every time has gotten out of hand.

 

[rohrmd9]

It's the grand Floridian. You mean to tell me there wasn't a pool to swim or "wade" in? I'm sure his life is upside down but it doesn't change the fact that the guy was an idiot.

Would you let you let your 2 year old wade in a lake after dark in Minnesota?

Do you need a sign to tell you to beware of lions on an African Safari?

The guy is an idiot. Simple.

I get that parents are ultimately responsible but you can say that about every decision we make. I don't consider this guy an idiot. We all assess risks with everything we do and make decisions for our young ones according to what we know/are informed of.

The point is I guess we are all idiot parents for letting our kids walk out the door every day and exposing them to risks we may not be fully aware of.

 

[LionFan87b]

Have you been to this beach? I have. It is very VERY clear there is no swimming. Additionally Disney pulls gators from the water on a regular basis so there are none in guest areas.

I've never seen a "sharks" sign at the beach here in Florida. Yet people get bit several times a year. Some even die.

How do you figure one is different from the other?

If these were guests who were at the park then walked to the water while between parks I think they would have a stronger case. But as it stands they will be able to get money. Just like any other death at Disney.

LdN

Why does Disney spend the money to pull gators from the water on a regular basis? Maybe it's because gators are a known threat to guests. If so, then why not warn the guests? A "No Swimming" sign simply doesn't cut it. The boy was not swimming, and this could have happened even if he was near the water. If Disney took the time to post "No Swimming" signs, then they just as easily could have posted a more intelligently thought out sign that said "Stay away from water" with a picture of an alligator and an exclamation point. Then, the boy would probably be alive today. (Also, some of the arguments in this thread that Disney would have to have sings warning of every potential danger in the water are ludicrous. A simple, but more intelligent sign would have been enough.)

As for sharks, you cannot compare an ocean to a small, man-made lagoon. Nobody could reasonably expect an ocean to be a controlled environment, free of predators. Furthermore, at beaches like New Smyrna, with higher than normal shark infestation, maybe people should be warned, as they are at other beaches.

 

[LionFan87b]

I get it. It's always someone else's fault.

Nobody is saying it is always someone else's fault or that someone always must pay millions. But in this case, yes.

 

[Monlion]

its an amusement park to make KIDS believe it's a safe fantasy land. Nothing on this planet is 100% safe.

If you're gullible enough to let your guard down and let the magic come to life, then you have more faith in others than I do.

How many people enter through disneys gate everyday? How many of those would you say are pedophiles?

A child is abducted/assaulted in the magic kingdom, people will claim Disney didn't do enough to keep kids safe. What could they do?

This whole somebody has to pay for everything every time has gotten out of hand.

Parents are aware of the possibility of their child being abducted and know to protect their children from that, but unless you are from a place where alligators are common you would have no idea that they could even be there much less be a threat to your child. The common perception is that alligators are in the Everglades not in a Disney property.

 

[LionFan87b]

How many people enter through disneys gate everyday? How many of those would you say are pedophiles?

That's not a very intelligent analogy. No reasonable person could think that Disney has the ability to identify potential pedophiles who might enter the park. But a reasonable person might expect that gators could be kept out of a man-made lagoon and that, if not, guests would not be enticed to go the water's edge. The fact that it's impossible to keep the gators out is irrelevant. The average person can't be expected to know that.

 

[jim cummings]

That's not a very intelligent analogy. No reasonable person could think that Disney has the ability to identify potential pedophiles who might enter the park. But a reasonable person might expect that gators could be kept out of a man-made lagoon and that, if not, guests would not be enticed to go the water's edge. The fact that it's impossible to keep the gators out is irrelevant. The average person can't be expected to know that.

Ok

 

[Black Elmo 2]

And yet you continue to remind me how much of a punk you are.

Ohhh.....tough guy!! I'm a-scared!!

 

[jim cummings]

Ohhh.....tough guy!! I'm a-scared!!

Cute

 

[wbcincy]

It should NEVER happen.
Btw, I caught you out on this 24 million bs once. It's just useless. Alligators, no warnings, it is not a close case.

If the signs would make no difference, why put them up now?

Caught me out? I spoke of a 1 in 24 million risk of death I read, then you asked about risk of attack, so I quoted you a 1 in 2.4 million risk of attack with harm. So what did you catch me doing again?

And don't ask questions so blatantly obvious. If a kid just got bit by a cottonmouth and died, they'd be putting out snake signs. That doesn't mean they shouldve put them out before.

 

[wbcincy]

No, not every risk. But yes, they DO have to warn against the risk of alligators. Hope that helps.

What about poisonous snakes of the region? Or black widow spiders around their plants? I imagine those pose the risk of killing someone once every 40 years or so as well, should they have signs? Not trying to sound sarcastic, genuinely interested where the line is in your mind for a risk great enough to warrant warning, Hopefully you won't just say "the line is alligators" because that's a non-answer.

 

[LionFan87b]

What about poisonous snakes of the region? Or black widow spiders around their plants? I imagine those pose the risk of killing someone once every 40 years or so as well, should they have signs? Not trying to sound sarcastic, genuinely interested where the line is in your mind for a risk great enough to warrant warning, Hopefully you won't just say "the line is alligators" because that's a non-answer.

It's a question of actionable information. If you warn me of gators, I can avoid the water. If you warn me of spiders, what can I do?

 

[demlion]

Caught me out? I spoke of a 1 in 24 million risk of death I read, then you asked about risk of attack, so I quoted you a 1 in 2.4 million risk of attack with harm. So what did you catch me doing again?

And don't ask questions so blatantly obvious. If a kid just got bit by a cottonmouth and died, they'd be putting out snake signs. That doesn't mean they shouldve put them out before.

Were e 24 million people on that beach? No. 2.4 million? Not even that. I am sure the parking lot alligator death rate is pretty low, but this kid was not in the parking lot. BTW, the new signs do have a snake on them. It is not that tough or that costly to warn people. They only have to put the signs on the beach, not everywhere those 24 million people go.

Somewhere somebody already told Disney to change those signs before this happened. THAT is why they will settle--because some working mom who rakes sand on that beach saw a gator and warned them to warn others, and they never did it. They will pay because that story is out there and they know it. It may even be in writing--which means they will settle.

Remember PSU is estimated to have paid 20 million to one victim, not because he was the most injured, but because he was about to get his hands on the Freeh source docs. Money to hide the truth, that is what they will pay.

 

[wbcincy]

Were e 24 million people on that beach? No. 2.4 million? Not even that. I am sure the parking lot alligator death rate is pretty low, but this kid was not in the parking lot. BTW, the new signs do have a snake on them. It is not that tough or that costly to warn people. They only have to put the signs on the beach, not everywhere those 24 million people go.

Somewhere somebody already told Disney to change those signs before this happened. THAT is why they will settle--because some working mom who rakes sand on that beach saw a gator and warned them to warn others, and they never did it. They will pay because that story is out there and they know it. It may even be in writing--which means they will settle.

Remember PSU is estimated to have paid 20 million to one victim, not because he was the most injured, but because he was about to get his hands on the Freeh source docs. Money to hide the truth, that is what they will pay.

Well we certainly agree Disney will pay, and perhaps rightfully so. You say a sign is easy to make, and of course that's true. The question is, how likely does a risk have to be to warrant such a sign? They could put up a million warning signs that are really easy to put up, but how many of them are necessary? This event didn't happen for 45 years. Is a once every 45 years type event deserving of warning signs? I assume your answer is yes, and maybe you're right, I'm just concerned how many other once every 45 year risks deserve an easy sign then,

 

[wbcincy]

It's a question of actionable information. If you warn me of gators, I can avoid the water. If you warn me of spiders, what can I do?

Well if a child died of a spider bite, people would say a sign at least alerted parents to be on the lookout. Again, my concern is simply, what level of risk requires a sign? Once every 45 years deserved a sign? Maybe so.