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Mid season coaches rankings out — someone is manipulating the rankings

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Fink

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Jul 30, 2001
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Today the NCAA released the mid season coaches ranking and first RPI. https://www.ncaa.com/_flysystem/public-s3/files/D1MenRanking_020923.pdf

Some funny (not really) business. They should’ve been out yesterday but were delayed. I think we can tell why. Manipulated.
RBY is 3rd and Kerkvkliet is 4.

RBY is behind Fix which is dubious given his two prior victories but also behind Vito who has one loss.
Kerk is behind Cassioppi And Davison.
 
Fink said:
Today the NCAA released the mid season coaches ranking and first RPI. https://www.ncaa.com/_flysystem/public-s3/files/D1MenRanking_020923.pdf

Some funny (not really) business. They should’ve been out yesterday but were delayed. I think we can tell why. Manipulated.
RBY is 3rd and Kerkvkliet is 4.

RBY is behind Fix which is dubious given his two prior victories but also behind Vito who has one loss.
Kerk is behind Cassioppi And Davison.
Click to expand...
i am confused as well.

it's not psu specific btw. yianni is behind sasso. both brands and warner are 1 spot behind guys they beat head to head. murin immediately precedes milner and paniro, who both beat him hth.

the fact they still have coaches doing this is insane. none of them want to do it anyway. let a media service or a committee of rankers do it.
 
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I agree. I took a quick look and was surprised By PSU’s guys. Hadn’t checked everyone out. Yianni at 3 is crazy.
 
The common thread in all of these: # matches. For example: Yianni has 10 fewer matches than Sasso.

These are idiotic, but at least that's the likely culprit.

Also there will be rankings updates that actually matter, so these are just cannon fodder.
 
Psufan2427 said:
Nomad claims it has to be coaches leaving RBY and Kerk completely off the ranking
Click to expand...

Is this the one with a 10 match requirement? Maybe some coaches filled it out ahead of time when RBY and Kerk were sitting at 9 so they weren't included? Both were still at 9 as of 2/2. Fits my Hanlon's Razor picture of the world.

RPI says a 15 match requirement and is missing a bunch, if coaches/whatever assistant AD they have filling the rankings are working from a bad list, it could happen
 
js8793 said:
i am confused as well.

it's not psu specific btw. yianni is behind sasso. both brands and warner are 1 spot behind guys they beat head to head. murin immediately precedes milner and paniro, who both beat him hth.

the fact they still have coaches doing this is insane. none of them want to do it anyway. let a media service or a committee of rankers do it.
Click to expand...
God god yes, we might as well have Wrestlestat do them 😉
 
SpikingWhamos said:
Is this the one with a 10 match requirement? Maybe some coaches filled it out ahead of time when RBY and Kerk were sitting at 9 so they weren't included? Both were still at 9 as of 2/2. Fits my Hanlon's Razor picture of the world.

RPI says a 15 match requirement and is missing a bunch, if coaches/whatever assistant AD they have filling the rankings are working from a bad list, it could happen
Click to expand...
Eight match requirement. Glory has nine at 125, so that'd be inconsistent.
 
Here's the coaches/staff that vote for the three weight classes; 133, 149 and 285;

133
Tony Robie
Steve Garland
Damion Hahn
Doug Schwab
Tony Ersland
Cael Sanderson
Zach Tanelli
Jason Borelli
Marcus Gordon
John Stutzman
Zeke Jones
Luke Smith
Scotti Sentes
JohnMark Bentley

149
Pat Popolizio
Glen Lanham
John Smith
Tim Flynn
Mark Manning
Brandon Eggum
Jordan Leen
Roger Reina
Tom Borelli
Keith Ferraro
Zeke Jones
Rob Koll
Jim Gibson
Daniel Eliott

285
Coleman Scott
Pat Popolizio
Sam Barber
Roger Kish
Tom Ryan
Matt Storniolo
Dennis Papadatos
Mike Grey
Ryan Ludwig
Joel Greenlee
Zeke Jones
Jon Sioredas
Ryan Leblanc
JohnMark Bentley
 
RoarLions1 said:
Here's the coaches/staff that vote for the three weight classes; 133, 149 and 285;

133
Tony Robie
Steve Garland
Damion Hahn
Doug Schwab
Tony Ersland
Cael Sanderson
Zach Tanelli
Jason Borelli
Marcus Gordon
John Stutzman
Zeke Jones
Luke Smith
Scotti Sentes
JohnMark Bentley

149
Pat Popolizio
Glen Lanham
John Smith
Tim Flynn
Mark Manning
Brandon Eggum
Jordan Leen
Roger Reina
Tom Borelli
Keith Ferraro
Zeke Jones
Rob Koll
Jim Gibson
Daniel Eliott

285
Coleman Scott
Pat Popolizio
Sam Barber
Roger Kish
Tom Ryan
Matt Storniolo
Dennis Papadatos
Mike Grey
Ryan Ludwig
Joel Greenlee
Zeke Jones
Jon Sioredas
Ryan Leblanc
JohnMark Bentley
Click to expand...
Cael left RBY off his ballot. Wants him to be 2 or 3 seed so he can beat Vito and Fix on his way to his 3rd title.
 
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My question about this is simple - what has changed? The three situations listed above, for RBY, Diakomihalis and Kerkvliet, and there might be others as I really didn't do a full look-see, don't align with past voting. There's always been questions, but these are more egregious than ever before.
 
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Based on vote totals (which typically aren't released but were this time), two coaches left RBY and Kerk off their ballots.

The vote totals report points from 12 of 14 coaches
 
@RoarLions1

I was always curious on which coaches were assigned for the voting, but wasn't able to find it. Are you able to share the coaches list for all weights and team rankings? Or maybe point me in the direction of where I can find the info?
 
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Fink said:
Based on vote totals (which typically aren't released but were this time), two coaches left RBY and Kerk off their ballots.

The vote totals report points from 12 of 14 coaches
Click to expand...
Appears two coaches at every weight class didn't vote at all, so there is no impact on any one specific wrestler, there's simply 12 ballots instead of 14. Keep going with your explanation...maybe we'll get to the bottom of this :rolleyes: .
 
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jrod65 said:
@RoarLions1

I was always curious on which coaches were assigned for the voting, but wasn't able to find it. Are you able to share the coaches list for all weights and team rankings? Or maybe point me in the direction of where I can find the info?
Click to expand...
Madden already jumped on this. Also of interest, the link below will take you to the NCAA page where lots of interesting info resides.

www.ncaa.org

Division I Wrestling

Division I Wrestling
www.ncaa.org www.ncaa.org
 
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More data re. the thought that # of matches affect the Coaches Ranking. Not sure what to think...

125 Brandon Courtney, 7th. 10 bouts.
133 RBY, 3rd. 11 bouts.
141 Real Woods, 2nd. 11 bouts.
149 #1 Gomez beat #3 Diakomihalis during the season, so I don't see this as too bad. Regardless, both Gomez and Diakomihalis have 12 bouts.
165 Cam Amine, 6th. 11 bouts.
184 Aaron Brooks, 1st. 9 bouts.
 
Should votes be made public? Would reduce shenanigans if coaches knew their peers would see the results. I recall in Olympic figure skating the voting of each judge is known.
 
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RoarLions1 said:
Appears two coaches at every weight class didn't vote at all, so there is no impact on any one specific wrestler, there's simply 12 ballots instead of 14. Keep going with your explanation...maybe we'll get to the bottom of this :rolleyes: .
Click to expand...
So, per Nomads thread, they throw out the highest and lowest totals which explains the 12 coaches. Also, per Nomad, RBY received 363 points which indicates 11 first place vote and a no vote, so 2 coaches had to leave him totally out of the rankings. Same thing with Kerk, he had the equivalent of 11 2nd place votes and one no vote, so 2 coaches also left Kerk off their ballots.
 
Rocky_Smith said:
Should votes be made public? Would reduce shenanigans if coaches knew their peers would see the results. I recall in Olympic figure skating the voting of each judge is known.
Click to expand...
They should be but at different times in years past both Willie and the Flo guys have said they know that some coaches do not even do their rankings, they pass it off to others like assistants or even their SID's or AD's.
 
rmg78 said:
So, per Nomads thread, they throw out the highest and lowest totals which explains the 12 coaches. Also, per Nomad, RBY received 363 points which indicates 11 first place vote and a no vote, so 2 coaches had to leave him totally out of the rankings. Same thing with Kerk, he had the equivalent of 11 2nd place votes and one no vote, so 2 coaches also left Kerk off their ballots.
Click to expand...
Same for Yianni, it seems.
 
rmg78 said:
They should be but at different times in years past both Willie and the Flo guys have said they know that some coaches do not even do their rankings, they pass it off to others like assistants or even their SID's or AD's.
Click to expand...
True, I know this to be fact. Never heard AD's, but Assistant Coaches yes. Still doesn't explain the voting.
 
RoarLions1 said:
True, I know this to be fact. Never heard AD's, but Assistant Coaches yes. Still doesn't explain the voting.
Click to expand...
Truth. I had a D1 asst. coach tell me this. He also told me coaches place calls to each other every year to work out "deals for their guys. That mostly happens for the kids on the fringe at last coaches ranking.im glad it only holds 15% weight. I wished they'd take out coaches ranking to be honest. These guys gamed the system with their last chance tourneys and other things. I'm sure they gamed it with this as well. I still wonder if Creighton Edsell got screwed last year because of it.
 
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Zeke Jones seems to be the common thread here as he is the only one who votes on the three messed up weights, those being 133, 149, 285. He's also on the 125 voting ballot, of which we have the least amount of interest.
 
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johnstownsteel said:
Truth. I had a D1 asst. coach tell me this. He also told me coaches place calls to each other every year to work out "deals for their guys. That mostly happens for the kids on the fringe at last coaches ranking.im glad it only holds 15% weight. I wished they'd take out coaches ranking to be honest. These guys gamed the system with their last chance tourneys and other things. I'm sure they gamed it with this as well. I still wonder if Donovan Ball got screwed last year because of it.
Click to expand...
Creighton Edsell?
 
Coaches leaving RBY and Greg off their ballots are coaches with panty bunch issues. Make ballots public so a couple idiots can be told to put their women's panties away and start wearing men's undergarments.
 
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None is more egregious than RBY.

Two-time returning champ and undefeated for the season. Third place?

Hard to fathom.
 
Looks like a totally arbitrary and capricious process with no transparency.

It's no way to grow the sport.

Smacks of cronyism and rascalism. But it is what it is, and what goes around comes around.
 
RBY would figure it out on Friday night but it'd be BS if he had to go through Vito or Fix in the semis. This needs to be addressed assuming all goes well and he finishes undefeated.
 
98lberEating2Lunches said:
Looks like a totally arbitrary and capricious process with no transparency.

It's no way to grow the sport.

Smacks of cronyism and rascalism. But it is what it is, and what goes around comes around.
Click to expand...
1*L9dLYpaSwo7cXrpR8-poxg.jpeg
 
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johnstownsteel said:
Truth. I had a D1 asst. coach tell me this. He also told me coaches place calls to each other every year to work out "deals for their guys. That mostly happens for the kids on the fringe at last coaches ranking.im glad it only holds 15% weight. I wished they'd take out coaches ranking to be honest. These guys gamed the system with their last chance tourneys and other things. I'm sure they gamed it with this as well. I still wonder if Creighton Edsell got screwed last year because of it.
Click to expand...
I hear ya, but in the case of our guys that should be consensus #1 (RBY) and #2 (Kerkvliet) earned by their body of work, something else is amok here.

I've now concluded, after reading more, that the idea of someone (or more than one, would that be sometwo?) intentionally leaving either guy completely off of a list of 33 wrestlers just doesn't make sense, and the idea of collusion, where a bunch of coaches rank them low doesn't make sense.

What does make sense is that the manual process of adding guys into the model that were not in the 1st Coaches Ranking is a situation ripe for human error. It appears the same coaches or staff that missed RBY or Kerkvliet did not miss Brooks.

I'd be shocked if the CR is not corrected upon its third installment.
 
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