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Italy still on figurative fire (USA in trouble)


Of course Italy has deep trade ties with China, so does the US. It proves nothing. As of today there is exactly zero evidence that Chinese immigrant workers and trade have anything to do with the outbreak there.

This bit of fake news started with an Alt Media twitter post. They lied about direct flights from Wuhan to Northern Italy, they lied about significant Chinese workers in Northern Italy (Prato is in Central Italy) and ignore the fact that NO CHINESE WORKERS were connected to the first cluster. Further, they ignore that the strain running through Italy traces back to Germany and is a unique mutation from the strain in Wuhan.

If you want to argue the downside of global business, have at it. I think it’s a major issue. But don’t try to blame Italy’s calamity on trade and immigration when there is no evidence that it’s to blame. Tourism is much more of a risk - should Italy shut that down permanently?

Every country in the world will ultimately have this virus. Hell, North Korea has it. Isolationism will help no one.
 
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Russia is reporting comparatively very few cases. I’m unsure whether or not to believe their reports.

I’ve seen a few pages on this issue but will let others chime in or else watch this post die on the vine.
 
They researched the supposed Patient #1 in Italy who was a Chinese national, but couldn't find any evidence to support it.
 
So you’re saying every person in the US is going to get it?
No. I am saying that 1% and change who get it may die. Who knows where that figure lands. Hopefully, that is way over stated. Some of the latest data indicates there are many fold the official number of cases who already have it with mild symptoms. That would indicate a much lower mortality rate than originally thought.
 
No. I am saying that 1% and change who get it may die. Who knows where that figure lands. Hopefully, that is way over stated. Some of the latest data indicates there are many fold the official number of cases who already have it with mild symptoms. That would indicate a much lower mortality rate than originally thought.
In the U.S. as testing goes up and there are more diagnoses the fatality rate has started to drop significantly.
 
That fact is the most problematic thing in this entire mess. THIS is where the failure to test in massive numbers has CAUSED the widespread destruction of our economic activity.

The failure to test will be marked in the history books as THE biggest cause of the contagion which is eating our economy.
lol - hot off the fax machine talking points?

You're pathetic.
 
Agreed if those projections are correct, then Q3 is the key.

But everything is shut down. Completely. How does that cause only a 1 percent decline in GDP? Someone spreadsheets it out and says it is so, but we will see.

Delivery workers need to be classified as essential workers!
 
That fact is the most problematic thing in this entire mess. THIS is where the failure to test in massive numbers has CAUSED the widespread destruction of our economic activity.

The failure to test will be marked in the history books as THE biggest cause of the contagion which is eating our economy.

No, no, no ...... THE SINGLE BIGGEST FAILURE HERE was China and their lack of transparency as this virus bubbled up over there in November and December.

THAT is the root cause of everything that has followed.

Yes, we could have rolled out testing here better. But, the virus was already here anyway. We could have had 330,000,000 tests ready and "at the go" on February 1st, and the virus would have still gotten here and community spread would have occurred.

It would have occurred because of the high amount of asymptomatics - even if we had 330,000,000 tests ready, those people would have never been tested (because they would have never suspected having the virus)!
 
14000 new cases in the US. Deaths still haven’t jumped, but not holding my breath on that.

This week is going to be depressing for sure.
 
I'm not buying that 14k new cases. NY announced about 5k new cases today. Where are the other 9k?
 
No. I am saying that 1% and change who get it may die. Who knows where that figure lands. Hopefully, that is way over stated. Some of the latest data indicates there are many fold the official number of cases who already have it with mild symptoms. That would indicate a much lower mortality rate than originally thought.
You said 3 to 5M Americans could die earlier in the thread. That means everyone gets it and the rate stays above 1%
 
Yes, it did. I jumped from 6,000 to around 14,000 then down to 8,000
Yeah, it shocked me. maybe just fat fingers on the controls

This week will be “monkey on crack” time for me on that site - like during a coaching search or a 5 star verbal presser ;):(
 
Yes, it did. I jumped from 6,000 to around 14,000 then down to 8,000
I could be wrong but as I watch things unfold I think there were so many undiagnosed and asymptomatic patients in our country that the death rate is going to be around .005. Still higher that the flu at .001 but way lower than we have been lead to believe. I don’t buy the BS that this crap wasn’t here already in December or January. With China’s woeful lack of transparency early on and the thousands and thousands who flew over here before the travel ban was activated and tests were given. There is no way it wasn’t here earlier.
 
No, no, no ...... THE SINGLE BIGGEST FAILURE HERE was China and their lack of transparency as this virus bubbled up over there in November and December.

THAT is the root cause of everything that has followed.

Yes, we could have rolled out testing here better. But, the virus was already here anyway. We could have had 330,000,000 tests ready and "at the go" on February 1st, and the virus would have still gotten here and community spread would have occurred.

It would have occurred because of the high amount of asymptomatics - even if we had 330,000,000 tests ready, those people would have never been tested (because they would have never suspected having the virus)!
If you quarantined the positives there would have been NOWHERE NEAR the community spread.

TO THIS DAY, in the US of A, we are not testing those without symptoms. Hell in rural areas there are lots of people who are not being tested even if they have the symptoms, TODAY, if they have not been out of the country. The failure to test is what is driving this, even now.
 
If you quarantined the positives there would have been NOWHERE NEAR the community spread.

TO THIS DAY, in the US of A, we are not testing those without symptoms. Hell in rural areas there are lots of people who are not being tested even if they have the symptoms, TODAY, if they have not been out of the country. The failure to test is what is driving this, even now.

Isn't the whole definition of a rural area one that doesn't have lots of people?
 
Yeah, it is. But they still get the virus, and the health care system they pay for is supposed to serve them.
Never could have had 330 million tests ready before it got here. Physically impossible. China slow-played the world about this for 6-8 weeks at a minimum. Revisionist history.
 
Never could have had 330 million tests ready before it got here. Physically impossible. China slow-played the world about this for 6-8 weeks at a minimum. Revisionist history.
I did not say we could, Michnittsaid that. But we damned sure could have 50x what we did have. My whole state had 500 tests until 10 days ago. You must be high.
 
You said 3 to 5M Americans could die earlier in the thread. That means everyone gets it and the rate stays above 1%
If this is 1% to 1.5% mortality and if 60% to 75% of the population eventually gets it, then that math isn’t terribly far off. 3-5 million is high. I admit that and will accept full responsibility for quickly typing a response without fully vetting each and every figure calculated in my mind abruptly on a football message board.

320 million people times 75% times 1% is 2.4 million people. Thankfully, the mortality rate appears to be rapidly declining as more asymptomatic people are testing positive. I do believe the 60% to 75% infection rate is possible over 18 months, sadly.
 
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I did not say we could, Michnittsaid that. But we damned sure could have 50x what we did have. My whole state had 500 tests until 10 days ago. You must be high.
I don’t disagree that we could have tested more somewhat earlier but I think it is naive to think that would have done enough to stop it. I think it was here much earlier than thought ( thanks China) and we are not South Korea geographically, culturally or in population.
 
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My 70+ year old neighbor is Italian and he has 80+ year old cousins over there that he talks to regularly wrt all this. They claim the people over there are just not very cleanly and are always touching and even kissing everyone even as they are told not to. Not the only reason but they admit it is a big reason for the total cases number
 
No, no, no ...... THE SINGLE BIGGEST FAILURE HERE was China and their lack of transparency as this virus bubbled up over there in November and December.

THAT is the root cause of everything that has followed.

Yes, we could have rolled out testing here better. But, the virus was already here anyway. We could have had 330,000,000 tests ready and "at the go" on February 1st, and the virus would have still gotten here and community spread would have occurred.

It would have occurred because of the high amount of asymptomatics - even if we had 330,000,000 tests ready, those people would have never been tested (because they would have never suspected having the virus)!

Add to that the fact that you could be negative today and the positive later on requiring many people to have multiple tests. Heck, some of those on the cruise ships were tested daily for several days past the 14 days before they were released from quarantine.
 
I could be wrong but as I watch things unfold I think there were so many undiagnosed and asymptomatic patients in our country that the death rate is going to be around .005. Still higher that the flu at .001 but way lower than we have been lead to believe. I don’t buy the BS that this crap wasn’t here already in December or January. With China’s woeful lack of transparency early on and the thousands and thousands who flew over here before the travel ban was activated and tests were given. There is no way it wasn’t here earlier.
https://amgreatness.com/2020/03/19/dangerous-curves/
If you weren’t very ill in late January or February, you probably know someone who was. The complaints often sounded the same: A fever for days, a stubborn and unusual-sounding cough, a persistent sore throat—the severity of the symptoms seemed worse than the usual influenza.

Doctors, assuming it was a version of the seasonal flu, administered flu-fighting drugs without testing. (My college daughter was very sick with the same symptoms; her flu test was negative.) Plenty of afflicted Americans just stayed in bed without ever seeing a physician.
Obviously, anecdotal evidence that the COVID-19 illness has been around for at least the past few months isn’t enough to make the case that there’s a chance the worst days of the outbreak are behind, not ahead, of us. But data from the Centers for Disease Control seems to support the possibility that the country has been besieged by the novel coronavirus since the start of 2020.

And while political leaders and medical experts push for more and more draconian measures to “flatten the curve,” it raises some questions. Are we looking at the right “curve?” And how accurate is the current curve if it doesn’t include possible cases before the height of the hysteria began in late February and early March?

The curve, according to one report, “refers to the projected number of people who will contract COVID-19 over a period of time.” To date, the novel coronavirus curve undoubtedly looks ominous. Only a smattering of coronavirus cases was reported in the U.S. during January and February; that figure jumped at the beginning of March due to testing availability.


The first known American victim, a Washington resident who had traveled back from Wuhan, the epicenter of the outbreak, was confirmed on January 21. The U.S. coronavirus graph basically flatlines from that date until the last few days of February.

But since the disease originated in China in December at the latest, it’s highly unlikely the number of reported cases in the United States between January 1 and late February is accurate. (It’s important to note that in its order prohibiting most noncitizens from entering the United States from China, the White House confirmed that an average of 14,000 people per day traveled between the two countries in 2019. That means tens of thousands of potentially infected people entered the country for weeks prior to the travel stop.)

Therefore, how could a highly-contagious virus remain nonexistent in a free-moving society for several weeks?


The answer is, it probably did not.
The CDC tracks a category called “influenza-like illness,” or ILI. Since symptoms of the flu and coronavirus are very similar, it’s instructive to look at this data, which is based on visits to health care providers in all 50 states, Washington D.C. and Puerto Rico. “For this system, ILI is defined as fever (temperature of 100°F or greater) and a cough and/or a sore throat,” reads the CDC webpage on influenza-like illness.

“What influenza-like illness is saying to us is that you have a virus likely affecting your respiratory system that is making you feel crummy and, currently aside from influenza, there aren’t good therapies for these other viruses, so we just treat the symptoms,” Dr. Michael Ison, a professor of infectious diseases at Northwestern University in Chicago, told WebMD.com in January. The underlying cause could be any number of undetected respiratory viruses.

During the week of January 18, 2020, the number of people complaining of ILI started to spike dramatically. That week, nearly 90,000 Americans visited a health care provider with ILI symptoms; by the following week, that figure jumped to more than 107,000. For the next two weeks, into mid-February, the number stayed about the same. And that doesn’t include people with symptoms who didn’t see a doctor.

During the same period, testing for influenza A and B also spiked. Positive tests for both flu strains began to climb during late January and plateaued in mid-February before declining. At its peak, about 20,000 people per week were diagnosed with influenza—but it also represented a positive rate of around 30 percent. That means lots of people were tested for the flu, had flu-like symptoms, but did not have the flu.

WHONPHL10_small.gif



Now, again, one can dismiss those figures as the usual discrepancies in any given flu season. But another CDC chart shows that, with the exception of the highly virulent 2017-2018 flu season, this year’s measurement of ILI reports from January 1 until mid-February is the second-highest in the past decade. Then, from the third week of February until now, nationwide reports of influenza-like illness surpassed the 2017-2018 season and now have leveled off.

ILI10_small.gif


Again, that too could be written off as a fluke and unrelated to coronavirus. But the CDC acknowledges a connection between coronavirus and reports of influenza-like illnesses: “Clinical laboratory data remain elevated but decreased for the fourth week in a row while ILI activity increased slightly. The largest increases in ILI activity occurred in areas of the country where COVID-19 is most prevalent. More people may be seeking care for respiratory illness than usual at this time.”

So to recap: The current coronavirus “curve” cannot be accurate since it does not include suspected cases of the illness before late February. (It’s unclear why scientists have not yet produced any models that attempt to calculate the virus’ presence here until testing was available.) A big increase in symptoms very similar to coronavirus occurred a few weeks after the first case was recorded, a timeline in accordance with the estimated trajectory of the illness’ spread. And roughly 70 percent of those expressing flu-like symptoms did not have the flu. So what was it?

It’s not unreasonable, in fact, it’s necessary and responsible, to consider that COVID-19 has been in the states since the first of the year; that people suffering similar symptoms to the flu actually had COVID-19; and that the peak of the outbreak occurred last month. The number of people now testing positive for the virus does not mean that the outbreak is accelerating because the data is incomplete.

That’s not the only concern about the veracity of data related to the transmission, spread, and fatality rate of the disease. Experts are cautioning that the available data is not sound and should not be used to justify draconian government measures now enacted at the federal, state, and local levels at a tremendous cost.

“The data collected so far on how many people are infected and how the epidemic is evolving are utterly unreliable,” Dr. John Ioannidis, a professor of medicine and epidemiology at Stanford University, wrote this week. “Given the limited testing to date, some deaths and probably the vast majority of infections due to SARS-CoV-2 [the virus that causes COVID-19] are being missed. We don’t know if we are failing to capture infections by a factor of three or 300.”


The encouraging news, for now at least, is that the coronavirus does not appear to be as deadly as the seasonal flu in terms of sheer numbers. Based on CDC estimates—again, important to note that even the detection of influenza-caused hospitalizations and deaths is not an exact science—between 36 and 52 million Americans have contracted the flu since last October and anywhere between 22,000 and 55,000 have died.

While the number of detected coronavirus cases continues to rise due to widespread testing, about 150 people reportedly have died from the infection. Nearly half lived in the state of Washington; many states are reporting single-digit fatalities. Further, hospitals are not yet overrun with coronavirus patients and, according to the CDC, hospitalizations this year due to the flu “is lower than end-of-season total hospitalization estimates for any season since CDC began making these estimates.” Good news if indeed the number of coronavirus sufferers requiring hospitalization actually materializes.

This is a dangerous time and not just because of the threat of a treatable disease. Americans are willingly surrendering to government their freedom, their livelihood, their long-term economic security, and their mental well-being over unjustified panic about a virus that might have already spread and now is abating. If this is the new normal, where incomplete data and media-fueled panic rule the day, that is an even more frightening prospect than what’s happening right now.
 
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If you quarantined the positives there would have been NOWHERE NEAR the community spread.

TO THIS DAY, in the US of A, we are not testing those without symptoms. Hell in rural areas there are lots of people who are not being tested even if they have the symptoms, TODAY, if they have not been out of the country. The failure to test is what is driving this, even now.

I disagree 100% with your first paragraph.

China let the damn cat out of the bag. They had positive cases on 17-November. They let the WHO (and the world community) know about this on 31-December.

That's SIX WEEKS. SIX WEEKS!

Six weeks where people could have been moving from Wuhan to the rest of China and to the rest of the world.

Also, one of the busiest travel times of the year is in the midst of that 6 week window.

The Coronavirus was likely Stateside by mid-December. Community spread within America was likely beginning then - a considerable time before we even knew the virus was something we needed to be on the lookout for.

I'd virtually guarantee that there are American deaths that occurred in December and January that were because of Coronavirus (that haven't officially been recorded as being due to Coronavirus).

Those deaths aren't Trump's fault. They are 100% CHINA's FAULT.
 
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Has anyone seen what the statistics are for flu deaths in Italy and Spain in the recent years?

Italy, as of this 3-January article, had a flu season that was "similar to that of the last flu season, which was the worst in 14 years."

The worst-hit regions, as of then, were in the North, including Lombardy.

https://www.thelocal.it/20200103/flu-outbreak-in-italy-should-you-get-vaccinated

I couldn't find anything for Spain specifically. But as for America - even our flu season was looking pretty severe as of 4-January:

https://time.com/5758953/flu-season-2019-2020/
 
Has anyone seen what the statistics are for flu deaths in Italy and Spain in the recent years?

I got this from Barnhart not sure if it is accurate.
2015-2016 season: 15,801 dead of flu in Italy
2016-2017 season: 24,981 dead of flu in Italy
 
My sister-in-law is an RN and she’s convinced that China has been holding back on the number of childrens’ deaths. You see more and more instances here in the US of children dying and she thinks that China hasn’t been transparent about this.

More and more? Where are you getting this from? I've seen one death of a child plus one teenager (both In California). There are probably others but I'm betting no more than a handful.
 
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There is now increased concern and experts are taking a closer look at the statistics on how this is affecting younger people In the US.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/po...-severe-coronavirus-symptoms-younger-n1166026

That's the proper way to phrase it. Not by exaggerating and making false statement like "You see more and more instances here in the US of children dying". That's just not true and it's not the least bit helpful to make up stories like that.
 
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My 70+ year old neighbor is Italian and he has 80+ year old cousins over there that he talks to regularly wrt all this. They claim the people over there are just not very cleanly and are always touching and even kissing everyone even as they are told not to. Not the only reason but they admit it is a big reason for the total cases number
If my memory serves me right. Water runs from 7am - 9am and then again from 3pm - 5pm. There is a large tank on top of each home that fills up based on need. In a perfect world the average Italian homeowner would allow for his hot water heater (located on the floor below the roof) to fill up and warm the water up for a comfortable morning shower, but this would require turning on the gas ($$). Warm showers result in longer showers and heavy usage of water ($$). I never remember taking a warm shower in Italy. Instead I would get under the frigid water for a moment, shut the water off, lather up with soap and shampoo, turn the water on and rinse off. The entire shower would take less than five minutes. During the summer months they flip the lid on the water tank in the morning to allow the hot sun to warm the water up which makes it more tolerable. Also, the government sets X number of liters of water to be used annually, for every liter of additional water used the homeowner gets hit with a painful usage fee. Yes, you are correct, people do not shower every day but it is not because people are opposed to showering everyday, the issue is an antiquated infrastructure as well as an economic issue.
 
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