I think this Navy Captain deserves a medal
- Thread starter Nitt1300
- Start date
It absolutely did disclose information that is supposed to be classified. He did it to protect his sailors, but that doesn't change the facts about what he disclosed and how he did it.
Here’s another guy who went around the chain of command and was ostracized for it:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Thompson_Jr.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Thompson_Jr.
I’m sure the infection of the people on the island was part of the calculus. The alternative, which you seem to endorse, is that those in Washington were willing to sacrifice sailors just to save themselves an embarrassment. It’s good conspiracy theory stuff.
I never suggested they were getting off to go run around. You do realize that you can spread the infection even if you are being treated in a hospital, right? If you let them out, for whatever reason, then you put those on the island at risk.
I understand the chain of command. This man seemed to have aired grievances in an open forum outside of the military. Where does that fit into the chain of command? I think it’s ironic that you criticize me for painting a reasonable scenario (not infecting the islanders) and then submit your scenario of him thinking it was an unlawful order.
The greater threat to national security is rouge officers who think they know better. In the military people are given orders for a reason. You may not understand them because you don’t have the bigger picture. However, it’s not up to you to determine the efficacy of the order. In the end, it boils down to an officer breaking chain of command. Sometimes, like in this case, it really is cut and dry.
A prime example of poor leadership in the face of adversity. I suspect there is more to this story than the MSM can craft.
Right as the folks in DC or in the military love egg on their face. Like that hasn't happened before. Again, I get why he was removed....stated that in this thread, but this isn't your ordinary "war time" circumstance. You sure as sh!t cannot contain this virus, let alone inside one big steel structure. If you think every order is lawful or a good order...that is fine. I've seen senior military looking out for their own first hand and it was clear as day. It's not a black and white case...yes they had every right to remove him, but I suspect he doesn't give 2 sh!ts as he was looking out for his crew. Let's see....how many times have you seen this on a carrier or at any command? I never have.
my neighbor who was career navy (officer) believes they made an error relieving that Capt. He believes he was taking care of his men. He should be applauded.
It's not a black and white thing, but people will make it out to be. There are protocols and he broke them so there are consequences, but we don't have the entire story....that much is true. No doubt he was looking out for his crew...click on the video and see what his crew thought of him. If you ever had a senior officer or even senior enlisted go to bat for you, you appreciate what he did. Military leaders are humans too and this is a different time, but people forget that. You don't usually get selected to run a carrier based upon a bad career or lack of military bearing....quite the opposite.
BTW....for those thinking this is a black and white case...this is what berthing looks like. Picture this with a few thousand men (don't know if the air squadrons were on or not) and knowing what we know about this virus....anyone see why their may be some anxiety onboard that ship? You don't get your own suite out there.
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If he "leaked" a letter to the press, he should be relieved until a board of inquiry can determine fit punishment. E-mails are not secure, much less if copied to dozens of people. He could have informed SecNav in a secure manner. You cannot broadcast to the world your military vulnerability. I think a severe reprimand and return to his command would be in order. We all know that the Navy is never wrong, but sometimes they are a little short on being right.
Note: last sentence taken from movie "In Harm's Way" after Rock Torrey was returned to his lost command.
Note: last sentence taken from movie "In Harm's Way" after Rock Torrey was returned to his lost command.
I have no doubt as soon as one person tested positive...let alone the first dozen this was known up the chain of command. Take a look at the berthing pic I posted, of course they had to notify the battle group commander at least. If it spreads throughout the ship like wildfire which is quite possible there...you are basically bringing a carrier down to it's knees. There is more to this story....just a hunch.
Agreed. with the various things I've read, his humanitarian decision isn't being questioned. His process is. The articles I've read have very clear quotes that he used nonsecure channels and to a wide array of endpoints (CC and BCC). It is unclear how the press got it, to me, so far.
I totally agree. But if someone on every ship gets it, are we out of the "navy business" until this is over? And if so, might someone take advantage of that situation?
No easy choices.
he did not suggest that the ship was not ready to fight- in fact he made the opposite point, that was the point we were discussing
He gave his recommended course of action, which was to cease operations and disembark the crew for multiple weeks - any mention of doing that is classified for multiple OPSEC reasons.
I suggest you read the entire four page letter, then ask yourself why an experienced senior officer would write it. (maybe also ask yourself IF you think he wrote it unassisted, though he took all of the responsibility for it). If you really believe that he went outside the chain of command first, we just don't see the same thing.
He fell on his sword to save his crew.
I totally agree. That doesn't change the facts that he ultimately went outside the chain of command and included information that is definitely classified. He could be the best Navy officer in the history of the Navy, it doesn't matter now.
you can read the actual letter here:
https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/Exclusive-Captain-of-aircraft-carrier-with-15167883.php
https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/Exclusive-Captain-of-aircraft-carrier-with-15167883.php
I've read his memo and I do emphasize with him. I also completely understand your points and agree with some. However, I can assure you that he is not the only senior level U.S. military officer dealing with this exact same issue on their bases or ships. You don't hear about any of them because they are classified. You shouldn't be hearing about this issue either.
From the article -
"The Navy did not respond to The Chronicle’s requests for comment Monday, but on Tuesday morning as the news spread, the Acting Navy Secretary Thomas Modly spoke to CNN.
“I heard about the letter from Capt. Crozier (Tuesday) morning, I know that our command organization has been aware of this for about 24 hours and we have been working actually the last seven days to move those sailors off the ship and get them into accommodations in Guam. The problem is that Guam doesn’t have enough beds right now and we’re having to talk to the government there to see if we can get some hotel space, create tent-type facilities,” Modly said.
“We don’t disagree with the (captain) on that ship and we’re doing it in a very methodical way because it’s not the same as a cruise ship, that ship has armaments on it, it has aircraft on it, we have to be able to fight fires if there are fires on board the ship, we have to run a nuclear power plant, so there’s a lot of things that we have to do on that ship that make it a little bit different and unique but we’re managing it and we’re working through it,” he said.
“We’re very engaged in this, we’re very concerned about it and we’re taking all the appropriate steps,” Modly said."
Then there is this -
"But by Monday, a senior officer on board the massive aircraft carrier, who wished to remain anonymous because they are not authorized to speak to the media, said between 150 and 200 sailors had tested positive. None had been hospitalized — yet, the source said. The Chronicle agreed to withhold the officer’s name based on its anonymous sources policy."
Absolutely not acceptable for a senior naval officer to anonymously report this type of thing to the press. The UCMJ will come down hard on this person, if they are identified.
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anon_xdc8rmuek44eq
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The thing is there are 100+ sick sailors....do you think he waited until then to inform his chain the the virus was on the ship? Of course not, so I think it's a good idea to wait for more info to come out as there was more than just that letter in terms of a timeline and communication. I can see why they removed him but he will get a hearing and there may be things that come out to change peoples minds either way. Either way he was in a sh!t position and was trying to protect his sailors....most sailors and regular people will get that.
Well if the crews vote means anything, they cheered their ousted captain.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...tain-crew-risk-leaked-coronavirus-letter.html
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...tain-crew-risk-leaked-coronavirus-letter.html
I mostly agree with you. It is a complex situation and I'm conflicted. I have differing personal and professional opinions - it's difficult to square the two.
there is a video of his "send off" as he is relieved of command. The sailors are amass changing his name and clapping. Pretty moving and clear that they think highly of him. At the same time, not practicing social distancing!
Seems somewhat simple to me... IMHO, He acted too late and by the time he did, he was overwhelmed and needed a timely response; which he didn't funnel up the right chain of command. In this area, that is VERY important to be able to follow orders and protocol. While he may have acted appropriately given his situation at the time, he shouldn't have let it get to that point.
If I've learned anything in my time of 'High-level' management, it's get clear orders in writing from your supervisors and keep them informed of what's going on... as often as necessary.
If I've learned anything in my time of 'High-level' management, it's get clear orders in writing from your supervisors and keep them informed of what's going on... as often as necessary.
who says that the men were not being cared for? You just can’t pull a carrier into any port and unload 5000 men on a community without considering housing, meals, etc. not to mention the difficulty of containment.
this Captains superior was also on the ship btw.
Yes you can pull the carrier in to a port. That’s not the issue. The South China Sea is the issue.
Orders are presumed lawful. The onus is on the one choosing not to obey the order to show that the order is unlawful.
Trust me I am will aware of the military code of justice, following orders and the chain of command. The bigger question is who leaked the memo?
my understanding is that it was sent via regular email with no classification to a large number of people. Since there was no classification, wouldn't it be the Capt who leaked the memo, technically? I mean, sent that way, it is in the public domain.
I didn’t hear that. Then in my opinion that is on the Captain. The status of a US Navy warship and its readiness is first and foremost. The South China Sea is a hotspot. He should have never sent it through a public domain.
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I heard it was an e-mail sent to between 20 and 30 people. The full story will come out eventually.
He leaked the letter he sent to his commander. He let C
He leaked secret info to the media. He let our enemies know we had a carrier dead in the water. He should have called his commander. The Navy dies not abandon their own. It has nothing to do with the virus. He cracked under pressure of a crisis. Not what you want in a captain.
Why didnt he speak to his superior Rear Adm. Stuart Baker, about his concerns before sending the memo? Baker was on the carrier and his quarters were next to the Captains?
I've read the Navy was well aware of the virus on the ship and was developing a strategy and plan for the ship and crew when the Capt sent the letter.
I've read the Navy was well aware of the virus on the ship and was developing a strategy and plan for the ship and crew when the Capt sent the letter.
You have no clue what he did. If you think his chain didn’t know already after one tested positive, let alone 100, you’re clueless. He did not directly leak the email but didn’t mark his email and included too many people which opened the door for the leak. How many classified emails have you sent?
If people think his chain wasn’t aware already, they are clueless. This is about letting it get out as there is no way his superiors didn’t know sailors had tested positive already. He was in a no win situation and there will be more to come out on this. Removing him was inevitable, but I can guarantee you there will be more to this.
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How many Navy Captains have you ever served under? The rank of captain in the USN is a great achievement. He has not lost that rank. He was not court martial. I went to the academy I served during the Cold War he did not break the chain of command some one else did.
