The odds are you will still be living in basements playing computer games and whining about how unfair the world is.
"How the college debt debate shifted with one big idea"
- Thread starter BobPSU92
- Start date
Yep. And you will still be ignorant in hell. Now go back to Bucknuts and jerk off to Urban Meyer.
Not true on the “I got mine” theory. I am no longer in a position where my degree will get me any further ahead or behind my co-workers or others in my field, experience is the dictating factor there. I am open to anyone else getting their as well.
But the point of “everyone” getting a college education dilutes the solution. I want everyone to be more educated, that can only benefit society, but if everyone has a degree, nothing makes it special for anyone to have a degree, and thus, you now need even more accreditation to set yourself apart. So what is next, free MBA’s? Doctorates? At what point do people have to start working for something instead of having it handed to them?
I agree the tuitions are ridiculous and at some point they hit the point of the return not being worth the investment. With some financial planners no, you can save the six figures, get a job out of HS, or better an apprenticeship, and be more financially stable than the 22 year old who will possibly get to break even when they are in their mid-30s and trying to start a family, etc
My 529 are for my kids. And I was just curious on the ramifications. My wife and I have gone without some things we have worked for in order for our kids to not be stuck in the college debt. If college is free, then that money should also be able to be ear-marked for something else without taxation.
If companies are smart, they will begin apprenticeship programs for those who show ability at high school age. Pay for someone’s education and let them grow in your company. This is the true way out of the college debt hell. Let the universities choke on the fat of their own greed. Cut off their supply
That's all true.
The issue is whether the benefits of a more educated population are greater than likely alternative uses of the money. That is a very complicated question, dealing with the relative value of education to society as a whole, the dangers of national debt, public vs.private expenditures, and the value of alternative programs that would be cut, though I trust you have an extremely simple-minded answer to it.
Very thoughtful and reasoned reply. Great evidence that you will solve the world's problems.
It's not lazy, irresponsible people, but it's also not what you stated above which is "high interest loans" that keep compounding. In fact, it's just the opposite. CHEAP money has driven demand for education through the roof. Cheap money means students can afford "more" education. Universities have gone on building sprees to keep up and compete for tuition dollars. The result is students have more debt at cheap rates, all underwritten by the tax payer.
Unfortunately we've been told a lie for the last generation that a college degree is needed to succeed so students keep borrowing more money to pay ever-increasing tuition. Further, as a society, employers have been able to shift their hiring practice to requiring a degree for positions that previously did not. Requiring a degree effectively outsources a percentage of training and filters candidates to those that have managed to stick with something for 4 years and follow through to a degree.
In the end, this lie has hurt everyone.
- graduates have piles more debt
- many go to college because they "have to," drop out with more debt than they can ever hope to repay with a "non-college" job
- those that aren't cut out for college are limited in available career paths.
Once again, some really 'smart' person in govt has F'd the entire country.
One thing I don’t recall seeing in this thread is that many jobs “require” a college degree when the roles don’t really need one. Essentially recruiters and employers have become lazy in assessing candidates. It drives up the cost of college. I can envision an expansion of a sector that, through analytics, lowers the cost of doing this assessment/accreditation. This would lower the demand for college degrees and make labor force training/matching more efficient.
I run an analytics team. The reality is that my positions don’t strictly need a college degree. But on the other hand only a small fraction of those with a remotely relevant degree can succeed in the roles. There’s a mismatch between what my company says I need to hire and my recruiters send me and what is needed. I need really smart and diligent thinkers, with nowhere near 4 years of specific training (9-18 months on hard skills would suffice).
I run an analytics team. The reality is that my positions don’t strictly need a college degree. But on the other hand only a small fraction of those with a remotely relevant degree can succeed in the roles. There’s a mismatch between what my company says I need to hire and my recruiters send me and what is needed. I need really smart and diligent thinkers, with nowhere near 4 years of specific training (9-18 months on hard skills would suffice).
What does the Constitution say about deliberately causing a recession? Odd how the same people that CAUSED the recession were the same cohort that got the laws changed so they COULD cause the crash.
You can read, right? Download this PDF article and see how many Millennials YOUR generation fvcked
https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2011/article/employment-loss-and-the-2007-09-recession-an-overview.htm
Those are much better ideas than what Warren and Sanders are pitching and its something I could get behind because I am not on board with complete debt forgiveness.
I knew that in 1980 being an art major was going to be risky, but I did it anyway and am making a pretty comfortable living as a Graphic Designer but no way in hell would I be taking that risk today. Also no way in hell a kid like me from a middle class family in PA could afford to go to Penn State today without raking up a huge amount of dept.
Here in Balto there is a fantastic art school called MICA. It costs $48,510 year.
Somehow I don't think that Fiber, Ceramics, Art History or Graphic Designer (I know that for a fact) Major is going to find a job making enough to pay that back.
Lets just say I don't think many artists at The Arts Festival this summer will make enough to pay off 1 year of MICA.
This is about the only thing we agree about. Not sure how I feel about that. But good article.
No, are showing the
No, I am using your example as you framed it up as you had two choices. Either spend $300k on law school, or do something you hate. Your words not mine. Notice I did not comment on lazy kids. You made it through undergrad per your comments without debt. I am assuming your parents provided or you were rewarded by a scholarship, as you are declaring that self financing is not possible.
So, reading your posts, you, as a college educated adult, made a choice and entered into legally binding loan contracts that would cost you $300k in debt remediation for a law degree. You made this decision with full knowledge of the costs and repayment prospects at the time, and are now using it as an example of what is wrong with the system. I won’t say whether or not that was a good decision, because you would make that on both objective and subjective analysis, and only you could fairly evaluate that for your life. I would say , that it doesn’t sound like it was good financial choice. That could be because the variables changed, you overestimated the value of the degree in the marketplace or you made an emotional decision. You can figure that out, but blaming a generation for a bad decision is self centered and not accepting personal responsibility. Where I do agree with you blaming boomers is from a parental perspective. I can tell you, my parents would not have allowed me to attend Penn State if I would have crushing debt, nor did my children go to the highest priced option they had. We reviewed options and went with what looked like the best value for what we could afford with what we thought was reasonable debt on the other side. So why should I pay for others who didn’t do that?
On the other hand that Art History degree would sure help on that trip.
The S&L scandal was due to BABY BOOMERS. The DOTCOM fiasco was due to BABY BOOMERS. LTCM Hedge Fund collapse was due to BABY BOOMERS. The 2007 Recession was due to BABY BOOMERS.
Why don't you BABY BOOMERS accept responsibility?????
You created this present fvcked up system, not Millennials.
https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2011/article/employment-loss-and-the-2007-09-recession-an-overview.htm
Here you go again with your ignorant blathering. Will probably only respond once. "“Over the last 25 years, more than a billion people have lifted themselves out of extreme poverty, and the global poverty rate is now lower than it has ever been in recorded history. This is one of the greatest human achievements of our time" https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/p...e-poverty-continues-but-has-slowed-world-bank
Since you have nothing else, I know you will continue to whine away. Undoubtedly, in the future your children will be asking your generation why it was so lazy and stupid and couldn't do anything but whine.
I never said law school or ditch digging were the only options. I said my generation was left to choose between (1) the career they want with paralyzing debt; or (2) a job they hate. I never said "law school or ditch digging," but you chose to frame it that way to make it appear absurd in order to invalidate it. Not because those were "my words." At least own it.
Again, I understand I made the financial choice with full awareness (though law schools have subsequently been sued for lying about graduation employment statistics). This was the career I wanted, so I made that choice. It was also definitely a good choice, as it will pay for itself many times over in the course of my life. And yes, I also bore the brunt of graduating during the recession, which I did not foresee when applying in 2006. Regardless, why did I and millions of others have to make the choice of absurd and out of control debts? Because of the people who allowed it to happen.
I'll again refer you to the drug makers who jack up prices 4000%. Do you blame the patient for choosing to continue to take the drug, or the pharma company taking advantage of them. I know which side I lie on. I don't blame today's students for continuing to choose the careers of their choice and the schools that give them the best opportunity to succeed. I blame the government for allowing those tuitions to skyrocket.
Where you are being obtuse is conflating the career/ job you want, with the college choice. Making the choice was not the only way to get to the career. To use your health care example, it’s like taking branded meds versus generic even if your doctor says the treatment is the same, because you can get a loan for the branded and you perceive they are so much better .
D1ckhead....congrats pulling the non Americans out of poverty. What about the 20% of Americans living in poverty???
Germany spends 7X more than GOD BLESS USA to retrain employees that lost their jobs due to outsourcing and other causes.
In America...youre on your own. Baby Boomers had ZERO problems shifting jobs overseas after the Iron Curtain fell. That would be all nice and dandy if these corporations invested in retraining America's work force.
But, they didn't.
Care to comment why, Professor Potatohead???
I take generic omeprazole instead of Prilosec because it's the same thing for a significantly cheaper price. I can't go to Cleveland Community College and get the same education, alumni network, or reputation for obtaining employment as I get at Penn State. So that just isn't a fair comparison.
And you dont think other generations had to make similar choices? There was no easy access to money like there is now and many had to settle on schools or majors that they could afford.
I agree something needs to be done but it can't be forgiveness of the loans because it wont solve the problem and we will be in the same situation again.
Ok. Average student debt was 13k in 1996. Average starting salary was 30k. Today, it is 37k and starting salary is 50k. See the problem?
Ok great. Again, I blame the pharma company jacking up the price, not the patient taking it. So when it's time to make the pharma pay for the predatory practice, I'm all for it. Same applies here. Be glad you weren't forced to decide between (1) going to the school you love and incurring a debt that burdens you for decades, or (2) some community college, all because the people running the government caused/allowed it to spiral out of control.
Some choose (3) join the military and go to school at night while working full time, raising a family and deploying on a regular basis. It isn’t a binary choice.
Yes, of course they faced tough decisions. The economy has also changed dramatically. We're not a manufacturing economy anymore. The education people need in order to have a middle-income life isn't what it was then. Vastly more jobs require college degrees than they did 50 years ago.
I presented some other options earlier that I think everyone (or at least the vast majority) could agree upon, hopefully something like that is what actually comes to fruition. Since I know this is a long thread, those things were:
- Student loans are interest free (fees for administration of the debts do get added)
- Student loan repayments are all tax deductible on top of the standard deduction, with no cap
Ok. So the problem isn't the politicians and university administrators who caused this, it's that millions of college students didn't all join the military. I don't blame the victims of bad behavior and say they should've found a different way, I blame those who caused the situation they never should've had to deal with in the first place. We'll just have to disagree.
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Great
Keep blaming others for making a choice you control. Shows PT Barnum was right.....
Yes, college costs have increased much faster than the rate of inflation. In 1996 the cost of tuition and room and board for Duquesne University in Pittsburgh (a private school) was about $18,000 and now it is $51,000. For Penn State the cost was about $10,000 in 1996 now it is about $30,000. Before we start giving taxpayer money away we need to address the costs.
The higher education industry is the only industry in the country that is allowed to rip off its customers with impunity and no one holds them responsible. The lenders are held responsible, but for some reason the universities that sell someone a useless degree for $200,000 get off scot-free and the customers who were stupid enough to pay that kind of money are now the victims. As is becoming more and more common for this country, the people who do things the right way are going to be made responsible for the mess.
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Ps
Chose psu over MIT due to cost and value versus price of engineering degree. Thought it was the better cost decision. Never know if I was correct
So, if we forgive student loan debt, will they refund me the money that I paid by working my way through school and GI bill? Can I quit my job now and go back to school for the next 15 years until I retire?
Where is this perfect world where everyone gets to do what they want to do and be a success? When did it ever exist? You set priorities, do your internal cost benefit analysis, and make tough choices. That is life. It isn’t binary and it isn’t always fun. You want a perfect system that did not, does not, and will never exist.
Just to be clear, I don’t like the student loan system as it is. If the government is going to get in the business then the loans should be targeted and limited based on major. We don’t need an over abundance of degrees with limited utility and earning potential.
Having said that, that does not absolve people from the ramifications of the choices they made, especially when you don’t similarly reward the people that made better decisions financially.
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Yeah, it’s the 18 year old’s faults, not the politicians and administrators who f’d it up. Seems right.
That’s fine, we just disagree. I think the government owes it to make right what it screwed up that is burdening so many. You think the students who chose the schools they wanted but thereby got screwed by the costs should bear that as they had a choice. I get why you feel that way, we just won’t agree.
How does the "government" make it right other than by collecting taxes from all and paying only those who used less than common sense, while not paying those who did use common sense? Hardly seems fair to those who pay the taxes or who found a way on their own to avoid the problem.
NO. POLITICS..
Hopefully we can discuss this without making it about the LEFT.
Bob, if you had a brain you could be dangerous.
It's the fault of the parents of the 18 year old, it's the fault of the 18 year old and it's the fault of the universities who sell a shoddy, overpriced product that does not bring value to their customers. We have to educate the consumer to buy value and fix the basic problem of a poor, expensive product sold by an out of control industry.
Excellent post! You are exactly right that a lot of students and their parents put little thought into the ramifications of obtaining a college education or even researching the cost.
I coach at the local high school, ask kids what their plans are, most have no concept of what college costs and the long term ramifications of its cost, many of the parents are of little help for a variety of reasons (some because of ignorance, some don't give a shyte, some just are not in a position to help).
Many kids do not even look at private schools, immediately turned off by the cost on the website. Reality is that a private school if the right match for the student can give huge amounts of financial aid (not loans) to a student with excellent grades/test scores, particularly if the student is poor.
Kids do not understand the consequences of debt. One kid I coach has to pay for college himself, parents cannot help. He is going to a state school and is going to graduate with $75K in debt. I asked about attending the local community college and saving $25K for the first 2 years...wants to go away. Tough way to start adult life.
Kids and parents do not know how to read/understand the financial aid letters they receive. I have to explain to the kids the key to reading the letter is identifying the loan amounts the school is offering...they don't realize this has to be paid back. Focus on the scholarships and grants offered in the financial aid letter.
Many kids have no idea what they want to do, how much money you can make with a certain degree, job availability and job growth using a specific degree. One kid plans to study 'environmental studies', said doesn't know what she will do with it and admits she doesn't like math, hence the studies instead of science degree. She is positive and says she will figure something out. She probably will, good person, hard worker, good attitude and good looking too (doesn't hurt if you are a woman). OTOH, 100K over the next few years and no real plan...big gamble.
Admittedly, these are big decisions for an 18 year old that can have life long consequences...many of these kids are not equipped to make those decisions (really at what point in time were most 18 year olds prepared for those decisions). Now the cost of college is so expensive, a bad decision and you are f*cked for a long time.
When it is this complicated the logical conclusion is it is intentional to fool people into signing on the dotted line. Debt is a boat anchor around the anchor and too much of the economy is relying on people borrowing money to keep the gravy training running. Going to be real interesting with the credit markets lock up tight again.
Drug companies, the problem there is more government intervention. The government refuses to prosecute drug companies for these scams and to make matters worse, the government passed laws against allow us to buy the same drug from other countries. If you could buy the same drug from Canada for example, the price in the US would collapse. This is another example of the government screwing things up.
So, what's your point? Ever worked with, or needed, a competent social worker in your life, or the life of a friend or loved one? Yeah, didn't think so because if you did, you wouldn't post bullsh*t like this.
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