For those of you that saw Sandy Koufax pitch.....

[olelion]

I dont know if any of you have read the book Clemente by David Marannis. It opens up with a game against the Dodgers with Drysdale pitching. Clemente pretty much owned him but during this game Robetto rips one of his low line drive screamers up the middle just narrowly missing Drysdale. Drysdale looked down after the hit and noticed blood dripping. Clemente took part of his ear. Don then served up a deliberate lollypop to Sanguillen who went yard. Drysdale effectively retired that day.

On another note, the most dominant pitcher in my lifetime was Gibson. He was unhittable in his prime and he pitched angrily. I smile when I think of a manager walking out to give him the hook after 100 pitches. He would have killed him.

 

[olelion]

I recently watched Ken Burns' series on Baseball and in particular the 60s and seeing how amazing Koufax was in his prime, which happened to be before my time. That must of been something to see him pitch in person and know you were most likely to witness an outstanding pitching performance.

Has any pitcher approached or inspired that type of feeling since?

Carlton in his prime? I remember the Gunner Bob Prince saying if you didn't get Carlton early, forget it.

Gibson? Seaver? Pedro? Ryan? Ryan was surely capable of a great pitching performance but it wasn't something I would state happened on a regular basis.

Guidry that one year? Arrietta? Kershaw?

One night in 1959 there was Harvey Haddix. He pitches 12 perfect innings and then loses
1-0 on a 2 run homer.

 

[Ranger Dan]

I never saw Koufax pitch, as it was before my time, but I do think he is the greatest pitcher of all time.

I do respect and appreciate the history of baseball, especially some of the great stories you hear. One story I remember hearing was about him pitching from time to time for the Dodgers at spring training, until they had to ask him to stop because he didn't want to let the batters get hits. It's a better story than how I'm telling it.

Searching for the details of the above story, I did just find this interesting piece from SI about Koufax: The Left Arm of God

Some facts about Koufax:
He was 11-3 in his career in 1-0 games. In 1965 and '66 he was 53-17 for the club that scored fewer runs than all but two National League teams.

In the last 26 days of his career, including a loss in the 1966 World Series, Koufax started seven times, threw five complete-game wins and had a 1.07 ERA. He clinched the pennant for Los Angeles for the second straight year with a complete game on two days rest.

He was named the National League's (NL) Most Valuable Player in 1963 and won the 1963, 1965, and 1966 Cy Young Awards by unanimous votes. In all three seasons, he won the pitcher's triple crown by leading the National League (as well as the American League) in wins, strikeouts, and earned-run average (ERA).

Koufax became the youngest player ever elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame.

He was the first major leaguer to pitch more than three no-hitters (including the first perfect game by a left-hander since 1880), to average fewer than seven hits allowed per nine innings pitched in his career (6.79; batters hit .205 against him), and to strike out more than nine batters (9.28) per nine innings pitched in his career.

He also became the second pitcher in baseball history to have two games with 18 or more strikeouts, and the first to have eight games with 15 or more strikeouts. He is also on the very short list of pitchers who retired with more career strikeouts than innings pitched.

In his 12-season career, Koufax had a 165-87 record with a 2.76 ERA, 2,396 strikeouts, 137 complete games, and 40 shutouts.

He and Juan Marichal are the only two major-league pitchers in the post-war era (1946 to date) to have more than one season of 25 or more wins; each posted three such seasons.

His World-Series ERA was an amazing 0.95.

 

[LionJim]

Do you mean Art Mahaffey?

No, Jim Maloney, I got his name wrong.

 

[wex18]

Koufax was a "Bonus Baby," meaning the Dodgers had to keep him on the active roster his entire rookie season in 1955. He never got a chance to develop in the minors, and didn't become a great pitcher until 1961 with the help of catcher Norm Sherry.

From 1961-66 he was probably the most dominant pitcher ever. I think Gibson had an overall better career. Sam McDowell was also pretty scary, but he sometimes had control problems.

 

[LionJim]

Sam McDowell was also pretty scary, but he sometimes had control problems.

Drinking problems too. Sad.

 

[androcles]

...the pitcher NOBODY wanted to face was Ewell (the Whip) Blackwell...
...nobody has come close to his ability to intimidate batters...
...right behind would be Sal(the Barber) Maggie, so-named because his 1st pitch came in just under the batter's chin!..

 

[butchnitt]

I recently watched Ken Burns' series on Baseball and in particular the 60s and seeing how amazing Koufax was in his prime, which happened to be before my time. That must of been something to see him pitch in person and know you were most likely to witness an outstanding pitching performance.

Has any pitcher approached or inspired that type of feeling since?

Carlton in his prime? I remember the Gunner Bob Prince saying if you didn't get Carlton early, forget it.

Gibson? Seaver? Pedro? Ryan? Ryan was surely capable of a great pitching performance but it wasn't something I would state happened on a regular basis.

Guidry that one year? Arrietta? Kershaw?

I recently watched Ken Burns' series on Baseball and in particular the 60s and seeing how amazing Koufax was in his prime, which happened to be before my time. That must of been something to see him pitch in person and know you were most likely to witness an outstanding pitching performance.

Has any pitcher approached or inspired that type of feeling since?

Carlton in his prime? I remember the Gunner Bob Prince saying if you didn't get Carlton early, forget it.

Gibson? Seaver? Pedro? Ryan? Ryan was surely capable of a great pitching performance but it wasn't something I would state happened on a regular basis.

Guidry that one year? Arrietta? Kershaw?

I was at 1963 WS game when Koufax struck out 15 Yankees.

Being a Yankee fan I did not appreciate his effort.

 

[Cpeplion]

My college baseball coach played for the dodgers and faced Sandy Koufax. Said Koufax threw harder than anyone else he ever faced and Bob Gibson was the toughest SOB on the planet.

Also, said that Koufax couldn't throw strikes consistently until they made him constantly throw BP.

He also coached their Triple and Double A teams. Would also tell a story of Pedro Guerro not being able to hit him if he walked across the plate. Then Guerro would cuss him in Spanish.

 

[john4psu]

I think what gets easily overlooked is as amazing as Koufax's strikeout numbers are, they occurred in an era when batters struck out far less than they do today.

Just as an example before Koufax's prime began, in Game 7 of the 1960 World Series, a 10-9 game, not one batter from either the Pirates or Yankees struck out.

 

[PSUcup1]

During their 5-7 year stretches of dominance , Koufax had a slightly better FIP than Pedro

However Pedro had a significantly better ERA+. Koufax single season high was 190. Pedro had an ERA+ of over 200 during 5 seasons. Including an insane 291 during the 2000 season

Pedro also had a much better K:BB ratio. Although the emphasis of not walking batters was not as prevalent back then

 

[OldTiredLion]

Drinking problems too. Sad.

I have an old friend (seems like all my friends fall into the "old" category) who batted against Sudden Sam in high school in Pittsburgh, who went to Central Catholic. He swears he never saw the last two pitches in his at bat and when his coach pulled him from the game he was actually happy.

 

[Ranger Dan]

More on Koufax:

He was a scholaship basketball player at U of Cincinnatti and may have only volunteered to play baseball because they were playing Tulane and Koufax wanted to visit New Orleans. Think about that... how many people who are in the short list of the best ever to do exactly what they did, almost ended up doing this by accident?

 

[Ranger Dan]

During their 5-7 year stretches of dominance , Koufax had a slightly better FIP than Pedro

However Pedro had a significantly better ERA+. Koufax single season high was 190. Pedro had an ERA+ of over 200 during 5 seasons. Including an insane 291 during the 2000 season

Pedro also had a much better K:BB ratio. Although the emphasis of not walking batters was not as prevalent back then

I don't think you can ever compare players (of any sport) from different eras based on specific statistics like this. The game changes. Nobody wanted to strike out in Koufax's day and a walk was as good as a hit. In Pedro's era, you could strike out 4 times and hit a solo HR and consider it a great day.

 

[artsandletters]

Do you mean Art Mahaffey?

No he means Jim Maloney, a hard throwing pitcher for the Red Legs. Threw at least 1 no hitter, iirc.

 

[harbest]

Koufax took half his career to find home plate but when he did, he was unhittable. Go to baseballreference.com and look up Gibson's stats for 1968. Cling to your loyalties all you want you will NEVER see a pitcher put up stats like Gibson did in 68. Historians call it the year of the pitcher and that year he was king. In a 5 year period, he pitched in 3 World Series game 7's winning 2.

 

[nits74]

Koufax was a "Bonus Baby," meaning the Dodgers had to keep him on the active roster his entire rookie season in 1955. He never got a chance to develop in the minors, and didn't become a great pitcher until 1961 with the help of catcher Norm Sherry.

From 1961-66 he was probably the most dominant pitcher ever. I think Gibson had an overall better career. Sam McDowell was also pretty scary, but he sometimes had control problems.

Also scary was Bob Veale. He touched 100mph at times and had a tendency to be wild. He wore glasses, which would fog up on him on humid nights. Used to scare the hell out of opposing batters.

 

[indoorgolf]

I saw Koufax pitch a shutout against the Mets at Shea Stadium in about 1965. It was unforgettable. His stuff was unlike any today. His fastball was about 100mph and hopped all over the place. His curve was what we called a drop back then. I never saw a pitch break so much. It started shoulder high a few feet from the plate and ended up in the dirt in front of the catcher. Koufax was unhittable when he was on.

I was also lucky enough to be a Three Rivers Stadium when Gibson pitched a no hitter against the Pirates. He was also a magnificent pitcher. Very aggressive. Didn't have Koufax's stuff but was very good.

I asked Bill Virdon who was the best pitcher you faced and he said Koufax.

 

[artsandletters]

Koufax was a "Bonus Baby," meaning the Dodgers had to keep him on the active roster his entire rookie season in 1955. He never got a chance to develop in the minors, and didn't become a great pitcher until 1961 with the help of catcher Norm Sherry.

From 1961-66 he was probably the most dominant pitcher ever. I think Gibson had an overall better career. Sam McDowell was also pretty scary, but he sometimes had control problems.

Known as 'Sudden' Sam McDowell because his fastball got there in a hurry.

 

[PSU65]

I got to see Koufax in person in the mid 60's when they played the Phils. It was the most incredible performance I'd ever seen. He was really on that day. And with each pitch he threw, the entire stadium let out a collective oooh and ahhh. He did only have 2 pitches but they were unbelievable. And I saw him on TV in that final game of the 1965 World Series against Minn. He had pitched in Game 2 and Game 5, so he was pitching in Game 7 with 2 (maybe 3?) days rest. It took a toll on his curve ball--he didn't have it at all. All that he had that day was his fastball. Everybody knew it, including every Minn. batter. They knew what was coming but they still couldn't hit it. Koufax pitched all 9 innings, gave up 3 hits and struck out 10.

 

[artsandletters]

Robin Roberts is always overlooked and underrated because he pitched for the hapless Phils of the 50s, less the 1950 Whiz Kids.

 

[Ranger Dan]

Koufax took half his career to find home plate but when he did, he was unhittable. Go to baseballreference.com and look up Gibson's stats for 1968. Cling to your loyalties all you want you will NEVER see a pitcher put up stats like Gibson did in 68. Historians call it the year of the pitcher and that year he was king. In a 5 year period, he pitched in 3 World Series game 7's winning 2.

Gibson is clearly an all time great, and his 68 season may have been better than any single season Koufax had (arguably), but Koufax had a more dominant career. Gibson had two NL Cy Young awards, but Koufax won three Cy Young awards back when it was one award for all of MLB, as well as an MVP award.

 

[harbest]

This thread started about Koufax, but has devolved into a discussion of various great pitchers and players. With that in mind I'm venturing from Koufax to Drysdale. My dad used to take me and sometimes a cousin or two from Altoona to Pittsburgh for doubleheaders at Forbes Field (always doubleheaders, because we got more for the money). I still remember the belching steel mills, but I digress. We traveled to Pittsburgh for a showdown with the Dodgers, and I got to witness the great Don Drysdale lose both ends of a doubleheader. He started the first game and we knocked him out after 2 or 3 innings and then in the second game, they bought him in in relief and we got to him again. I really didn't think that much of it at the time, because I more focused on the fact that we won both games (I wasn't even 10 years old). But looking back, I'm not sure you're going to find too many examples of a Hall of Fame pitcher losing two games in one day.

Drysdale started the first game of the 65 or 66 Series because it fell on a Jewish holiday and Koufax said he would not pitch. As it turned out, Drysdale got rocked and when Alston came out to take himout, he looked at him and said"Bet you wish I was Jewish!"

 

[HazletonLion]

Koufax was a few years out of the game when the Dodgers played the A's in the series. He pitched batting practice in preparation for the series, and Cey, Garvey, Lopes, and Co. couldn't hit him. His arm was about 75- 80 % at the time, shows how great he was.

 

[Option Bob]

Are any of you old enough to remember a hard-throwing southpaw for the Indians named Herb Score? I'm from Erie, and I was a just a kid who loved baseball. In 1956 Cleveland had Score and a good Italian by the name of Rocco Dominico Colavito, and my family lived him and the Indians. Score became my favorite player as he had an amazing year(20 wins).

I think it was a year later when Yankee Gil McDougald hit a line drive back at Score, shattering the pitcher's facial bones. Herb never really matched the potential greatness he displayed in 1955-56 after that injury. But I like to think he could have been on par with Koufax had he not been hit in the face.

 

[wex18]

Drysdale started the first game of the 65 or 66 Series because it fell on a Jewish holiday and Koufax said he would not pitch. As it turned out, Drysdale got rocked and when Alston came out to take himout, he looked at him and said"Bet you wish I was Jewish!"

Amazingly, Koufax got only one Opening Day starting assignment in his career. Alston was partial to Drysdale, who he considered the "All-American boy."

 

[fairgambit]

When baseball was my life, in the 60's and 70's, Gibson was the best. My idol, Roberto Clemente, hit barely above .200 against him, the lowest average for Roberto against any pitcher he faced at least 100 times. When I went to a Bucco game and Gibson was on the mound I expected a loss and that's usually exactly what happened. Here is a Bob Prince radio call of the Bob Gibson no hitter against the Bucs in August, 1971.

 

[CoastFan]

As a kid, Koufax was one of my favorite players. He was absolutely at the top of the game for a number of years.
As far as one game, I had the privilege of seeing Nolan Ryan pitch one of his no hitters in the Big A in Anaheim when I lived in Orange County. When Ryan was on like that, he was absolutely intimidating with that incomparable fastball..

 

[Ranger Dan]

Koufax was a few years out of the game when the Dodgers played the A's in the series. He pitched batting practice in preparation for the series, and Cey, Garvey, Lopes, and Co. couldn't hit him. His arm was about 75- 80 % at the time, shows how great he was.

I think that was the story that I was trying to remember.... thanks!

 

[delcoLion]

I saw Koufax at Connie Mack Stadium when I was a kid. Also saw Juan Marichal there. Watched Gibson pitch several times against the Phillies and, of course, I saw Lefty on the mound too many times to count. Remembering what I can through my childhood eyes, I can't say who was the best pitcher was but damn, they were all effing awesome! I can say that Willie Mays was the best ball player I've ever seen, by far.

I, too, saw most of the great players of that era in Connie Mack stadium. My brother and I would catch the express bus from 28th street to Broad, then the express subway up to Lehigh and go to a twi-light doubleheader. Willie Mays was the best player, by far, IMHO.

However, I have to say that Willie McCovey was the most intimidating player at the plate. A huge man in a time when baseball players were very average-sized. His HRs were tee shots, like they were shot out of an artillery piece.

 

[UncleLar]

Saw Koufax and Drysdale pitch in a twinight double header against the Pirates in Forbes Field in the mid 60's. Due to an earlier rainout it was scheduled as a day/night doubleheader so they could get two separate paid crowds. Due to rain in the afternoon they were forced to play the twinight double header. Jim Pagliaroni hit a game winning double in the bottom of the tenth in both games to win for the Pirates..

Wow - flashback city. It was summer of 1965. I happened to have an internship that summer in New York City (actually working at 30 Rock, but that's another story). When the Dodgers came to town in August I got tickets to all four games of the series. Drysdale won the first game 8-4, but the Mets came back and won the next three, including beating Koufax 5-2 in perhaps his worst loss of the year.

The Dodgers were in the thick of the pennant race and I fully expected them to bounce back and take two from the Pirates when they went into Pittsburgh a week later (they had three games in Phlly in the middle of the two series) I was shocked to read in the paper the next day that they had lost both games.

That said, your memory isn't entirely accurate. Pagliaroni did hit the game winning double off of Koufax, but it was in the 11th not the tenth.
And Pagliaroni didn't even play in the next game. In that one, the Pirates scored the game winner in the eighth on an out by pinch hitter Manny Mota.

 

[TheGLOV]

I recently watched Ken Burns' series on Baseball and in particular the 60s and seeing how amazing Koufax was in his prime, which happened to be before my time. That must of been something to see him pitch in person and know you were most likely to witness an outstanding pitching performance.

Has any pitcher approached or inspired that type of feeling since?

Carlton in his prime? I remember the Gunner Bob Prince saying if you didn't get Carlton early, forget it.

Gibson? Seaver? Pedro? Ryan? Ryan was surely capable of a great pitching performance but it wasn't something I would state happened on a regular basis.

Guidry that one year? Arrietta? Kershaw?

When I was very young, I saw Koufax, Drysdale, and Juan Marichal pitch. No kidding.

 

[TheGLOV]

I, too, saw most of the great players of that era in Connie Mack stadium. My brother and I would catch the express bus from 28th street to Broad, then the express subway up to Lehigh and go to a twi-light doubleheader. Willie Mays was the best player, by far, IMHO.

However, I have to say that Willie McCovey was the most intimidating player at the plate. A huge man in a time when baseball players were very average-sized. His HRs were tee shots, like they were shot out of an artillery piece.

I saw Willie McCovey hit TWO I believe over the roof at Forbes Field

 

[artsandletters]

Amazingly, Koufax got only one Opening Day starting assignment in his career. Alston was partial to Drysdale, who he considered the "All-American boy."

All-American boy meaning not Jewish, maybe?

 

[artsandletters]

I, too, saw most of the great players of that era in Connie Mack stadium. My brother and I would catch the express bus from 28th street to Broad, then the express subway up to Lehigh and go to a twi-light doubleheader. Willie Mays was the best player, by far, IMHO.

However, I have to say that Willie McCovey was the most intimidating player at the plate. A huge man in a time when baseball players were very average-sized. His HRs were tee shots, like they were shot out of an artillery piece.

The Giants had back to back Rookies of the Year, Cepeda in '58 followed by McCovey in'59, both first basemen, both of whom ended up in the HoF. IIRC, that's about when Cepeda began making a transition to 3rd base. The Giants were loaded with hitters in their system back then, the Alou brothers being an example (or three examples).

 

[berklion]

I like Mike Matheny's description of how the fastball sets up other pitches, at the beginning of this article.

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/base...cle_e40b8c06-9d21-5b73-8755-0b926dc4dbd0.html

 

[qrtr]

Duren wore some thick glasses and was rumored to be really wild with his fastball. Do you remember the story (tale?) about Duren that once when he was warming up, he hit the batter in the on-deck circle? Supposedly freaked the batter out before he stepped to the plate.

Dizzy Dean loved telling this story. Great thread.

 

[LionJim]

Dizzy Dean loved telling this story. Great thread.

Yes, and it made for a funny scene in Bull Durham.

 

[wex18]

All-American boy meaning not Jewish, maybe?

Correct

 

[harbest]

Dizzy Dean loved telling this story. Great thread.

I saw him (Duren) in a couple of old timers games at "old" Yankee stadium (pre 1973) and every time he came on, the first pitch always went right to the backstop.... on the fly.