For those of you that saw Sandy Koufax pitch.....

[john4psu]

I recently watched Ken Burns' series on Baseball and in particular the 60s and seeing how amazing Koufax was in his prime, which happened to be before my time. That must of been something to see him pitch in person and know you were most likely to witness an outstanding pitching performance.

Has any pitcher approached or inspired that type of feeling since?

Carlton in his prime? I remember the Gunner Bob Prince saying if you didn't get Carlton early, forget it.

Gibson? Seaver? Pedro? Ryan? Ryan was surely capable of a great pitching performance but it wasn't something I would state happened on a regular basis.

Guidry that one year? Arrietta? Kershaw?

 

[GreggK]

This Pirates fan says Arrietta is a pitcher to be fearful of. Roids and all.

 

[WDLion]

I recently watched Ken Burns' series on Baseball and in particular the 60s and seeing how amazing Koufax was in his prime, which happened to be before my time. That must of been something to see him pitch in person and know you were most likely to witness an outstanding pitching performance.

Has any pitcher approached or inspired that type of feeling since?

Carlton in his prime? I remember the Gunner Bob Prince saying if you didn't get Carlton early, forget it.

Gibson? Seaver? Pedro? Ryan? Ryan was surely capable of a great pitching performance but it wasn't something I would state happened on a regular basis.

Guidry that one year? Arrietta? Kershaw?

Koufax and Gibson both in Forbes Field. No.

 

[Glen]

Koufax really only had two pitches - fast ball and curve. I can remember Don Hoak talking about the curve and saying you would give up on it as out of the strike zone and it would then drop in. Koufax didn't intimidate like Gibson or Drysdale. But if you wanted intimidation - Bob Veale on any hot humid night - glasses would fog up, he would take out a big white handkerchief and the batter was just saying a prayer that he could still see home plate.

Most dominant pitcher I ever saw - Mariano Rivera

 

[LionJim]

I saw Carlton pitch live three times in 1972. That was absolutely the best year any pitcher has had, in my memory.

Gibson was crazy intense, otherworldly. Another scary pitcher was Jim Maloney (edit), remember him?

 

[BobPSU92]

Tim McCarver has said that the only pitch he never saw as a batter was a Nolan Ryan fastball. It was the only time he was scared at the plate.

 

[RandyL]

I saw Koufax pitch a one-hitter at Forbes Field.
Pirates pitcher Bennie Daniels got a broken bat single that dribbled thru the infield.

Fascination discussion re Koufax (and so any others) in the original Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract. Can't recommend it enough for serious fans.

The thing about Koufax was that the fewer runs he had to work with, the better he was.

 

[Nitt1300]

Bob Gibson literally changed the game.

Carlton was the best I ever saw in person.

 

[NC2017]

I recently watched Ken Burns' series on Baseball and in particular the 60s and seeing how amazing Koufax was in his prime, which happened to be before my time. That must of been something to see him pitch in person and know you were most likely to witness an outstanding pitching performance.

Has any pitcher approached or inspired that type of feeling since?

Carlton in his prime? I remember the Gunner Bob Prince saying if you didn't get Carlton early, forget it.

Gibson? Seaver? Pedro? Ryan? Ryan was surely capable of a great pitching performance but it wasn't something I would state happened on a regular basis.

Guidry that one year? Arrietta? Kershaw?

I saw Sandy pitch (I was 7 y/o) and recall my 1st baseball game at Ebbetts field. The Brooklyn Dodgers played the Chicago Cubs who had a rookie shortstop named Earnie Banks. He turned out to be pretty good

True story about Sandy. His mother lived on Kings Highway in Brooklyn. We kids would ride our bikes over to her apartment, ring the bell and ask for Sandy. That very sweet woman would patiently tell us that he was on a road trip and try back next week. Then came the treat, she always had candy for us. Talk about great memories....

 

[mrtailgate]

Koufax didn't need more than two pitches, both were legendary. He had the sharpest most violent breaking ball and his fast ball exploded on top of the hitter given his delivery, arm slot, and height of the mound. It seemed like he was literally on top of the plate at the time of his release.

Who compares? Not many, that's for sure. You could argue pretty convincingly that Koufax had the best fastball and best curve in the game. The only player that scouts told me who had the best multiple pitch was Pedro. He had the best curve and best changeup in the game and when Pedro was younger, his fastball was 97. Some people threw it a tad faster but coming off the change and curve, people told me that his 97 made his fastball the most effective in the game at that time.

Others have mentioned the closest comparisons whether it be the Lefty season, etc. For sheer intimidation, many forget James Rodney Richards. For that couple year period, a lot of people took sick or wanted their off day when facing JR. Another guy who was scary for a number of reasons was Sam McDowell.

 

[LemonEars]

I saw Koufax pitch a shutout against the Mets at Shea Stadium in about 1965. It was unforgettable. His stuff was unlike any today. His fastball was about 100mph and hopped all over the place. His curve was what we called a drop back then. I never saw a pitch break so much. It started shoulder high a few feet from the plate and ended up in the dirt in front of the catcher. Koufax was unhittable when he was on.

I was also lucky enough to be a Three Rivers Stadium when Gibson pitched a no hitter against the Pirates. He was also a magnificent pitcher. Very aggressive. Didn't have Koufax's stuff but was very good.

 

[Rick from SC]

Bob Gibson literally changed the game.

Carlton was the best I ever saw in person.

Saw Koufax,Gibson, Marichal, Drysdale, Gaylord Perry,Carlton, Jim Maloney.

Best imo was lefty Koufax and righty Gibson. Both were nasty. Gibson could have played any position on the field.

Dave Parker couldn't have hit Carlton with an oar. Once Koufax developed his control he was unhittable.

 

[AldenT]

Awesome thread. Thanks for all the posts.

 

[Jerademan74]

I saw Carlton pitch live three times in 1972. That was absolutely the best year any pitcher has had, in my memory.

Gibson was crazy intense, otherworldly. Another scary pitcher was Jim Mahoney, remember him?

Do you mean Art Mahaffey?

 

[WDLion]

Koufax didn't need more than two pitches, both were legendary. He had the sharpest most violent breaking ball and his fast ball exploded on top of the hitter given his delivery, arm slot, and height of the mound. It seemed like he was literally on top of the plate at the time of his release.

Who compares? Not many, that's for sure. You could argue pretty convincingly that Koufax had the best fastball and best curve in the game. The only player that scouts told me who had the best multiple pitch was Pedro. He had the best curve and best changeup in the game and when Pedro was younger, his fastball was 97. Some people threw it a tad faster but coming off the change and curve, people told me that his 97 made his fastball the most effective in the game at that time.

Others have mentioned the closest comparisons whether it be the Lefty season, etc. For sheer intimidation, many forget James Rodney Richards. For that couple year period, a lot of people took sick or wanted their off day when facing JR. Another guy who was scary for a number of reasons was Sam McDowell.

Ryne Duren as pretty scary.

 

[LionJim]

Saw Koufax,Gibson, Marichal, Drysdale, Gaylord Perry,Carlton, Jim Maloney.

Best imo was lefty Koufax and righty Gibson. Both were nasty. Gibson could have played any position on the field.

Dave Parker couldn't have hit Carlton with an oar. Once Koufax developed his control he was unhittable.

I saw Marichal pitch several times at CMS. Quite possibly the most graceful pitcher I've ever seen. He had every possible pitch in his arsenal.

 

[bdgan]

I recently watched Ken Burns' series on Baseball and in particular the 60s and seeing how amazing Koufax was in his prime, which happened to be before my time. That must of been something to see him pitch in person and know you were most likely to witness an outstanding pitching performance.

Has any pitcher approached or inspired that type of feeling since?

Carlton in his prime? I remember the Gunner Bob Prince saying if you didn't get Carlton early, forget it.

Gibson? Seaver? Pedro? Ryan? Ryan was surely capable of a great pitching performance but it wasn't something I would state happened on a regular basis.

Guidry that one year? Arrietta? Kershaw?

Koufax was amazing and he went out on top. His last 4 seasons:
1963 ERA 1.88, WHIP .875, Wins 25, CG 20
1964 ERA 1.74, WHIP .928, Wins 19, CG 15
1965 ERA 2.04, WHIP .855, Wins 26, CG 27
1966 ERA 1.73, WHIP .985, Wins 27, CG 27

Look at those complete games. The leader in 2016 was Chris Sale with 5. Koufax didn't pitch the first game of the 1965 World series because it fell on a Jewish holiday but still pitched 3 of the remaining 6 games. His post season ERA was 0.95 and his WHIP was 0.825.

 

[OldTiredLion]

I saw Koufax at Connie Mack Stadium when I was a kid. Also saw Juan Marichal there. Watched Gibson pitch several times against the Phillies and, of course, I saw Lefty on the mound too many times to count. Remembering what I can through my childhood eyes, I can't say who was the best pitcher was but damn, they were all effing awesome! I can say that Willie Mays was the best ball player I've ever seen, by far.

 

[mrtailgate]

I saw Marichal pitch several times at CMS. Quite possibly the most graceful pitcher I've ever seen. He had every possible pitch in his arsenal.

Seeing Koufax was an event but the Dominican Dandy was the most fascinating given the assortment of deliveries and the crazy leg kick that every kid our age tried to imitate but couldn't. Most of the time you wound up falling over.

It's a shame that he is often remembered for the bat incident with Roseboro. That was scary, he could have killed him. But the two men had an amazing relationship and were like brothers. I believe that Marichal might have delivered the eulogy at Roseboro's funeral or at the least had his thoughts read. I remember Roseboro's wife talking about how much they meant to each other,

The one sporting event that I wished I saw live is either Wilt's 100 or the Marichal Spahn 1-0 classic.

 

[WDLion]

Koufax was amazing and he went out on top. His last 4 seasons:
1963 ERA 1.88, WHIP .875, Wins 25, CG 20
1964 ERA 1.74, WHIP .928, Wins 19, CG 15
1965 ERA 2.04, WHIP .855, Wins 26, CG 27
1966 ERA 1.73, WHIP .985, Wins 27, CG 27

Look at those complete games. The leader in 2016 was Chris Sale with 5. Koufax didn't pitch the first game of the 1965 World series because it fell on a Jewish holiday but still pitched 3 of the remaining 6 games. His post season ERA was 0.95 and his WHIP was 0.825.

And he averaged over one strikeout per inning.

 

[CvilleLion]

I saw Koufax when I was 10, and I saw multiple Carlton games in '72. I only saw Gibson on TV. I wouldn't want to even attempt to compare them. Each could be un-hittable on any given day. But I have a soft spot for Sandy, because that was my first major league game!

 

[mrtailgate]

I saw Koufax at Connie Mack Stadium when I was a kid. Also saw Juan Marichal there. Watched Gibson pitch several times against the Phillies and, of course, I saw Lefty on the mound too many times to count. Remembering what I can through my childhood eyes, I can't say who was the best pitcher was but damn, they were all effing awesome! I can say that Willie Mays was the best ball player I've ever seen, by far.

No doubt given Willie's combo of skills - power, arm, speed, range. But Mantle had the greatest physical skill sets before being injured and other well chronicled issues. What could have been.

 

[OldTiredLion]

One thing which people seem to forget about the old timers of my youth: they all were on a four man rotation. Unheard of in this era. The innings pitched were remarkable. And not a steroid in sight. Probably a whole lot of "greenies" in the clubhouse though.

 

[lionville]

Denny McLain in 1968 was pretty impressive. 31 wins. A memorable World Series between Detroit and St. Louis vs. Bob Gibson.
Gibson pitched game 7 on 2 days rest. McLain pitched 28 complete games that year. The strike zone was much different then. Top of batter's shoulders to bottom of knees.

 

[Option Bob]

Ryne Duren as pretty scary.

Duren wore some thick glasses and was rumored to be really wild with his fastball. Do you remember the story (tale?) about Duren that once when he was warming up, he hit the batter in the on-deck circle? Supposedly freaked the batter out before he stepped to the plate.

 

[OldTiredLion]

No doubt given Willie's combo of skills - power, arm, speed, range. But Mantle had the greatest physical skill sets before being injured and other well chronicled issues. What could have been.

Never got to see Mantle play in person. Back then the National League was exclusively that with no inter-league play. But I would've been the 1st kid in line at the box-office to see the Yankees if they came to town!

 

[mrtailgate]

Denny McLain in 1968 was pretty impressive. 31 wins. A memorable World Series between Detroit and St. Louis vs. Bob Gibson.
Gibson pitched game 7 on 2 days rest. McLain pitched 28 complete games that year. The strike zone was much different then. Top of batter's shoulders to bottom of knees.

Maris told his Cardinal teammates before the Series that they would have more trouble with Lolich v. McLain. Turned out he was right on that one.

 

[RandyL]

I forgot to mention that in the one-hitter I saw Koufax pitch, Bennie Daniels probably threw the best game of his career; he only gave up (I think) 4 hits; unfortunately 3 singles came in one inning and gave Koufax an early 1-0 lead, which is all Koufax needed. Poor Bennie.

I can not recommend enough that Bill James book, tho I think it has been out of print a long time. He ranks everybody both for "career value" and for "peak value".
Mantle fans especially will love it.

 

[OldTiredLion]

Duren wore some thick glasses and was rumored to be really wild with his fastball. Do you remember the story (tale?) about Duren that once when he was warming up, he hit the batter in the on-deck circle? Supposedly freaked the batter out before he stepped to the plate.

I remember some of the stories Richie Ashburn would tell about the old players of his era. Ryne Duren was a favorite subject when they played spring ball against the AL teams (I think Duren played for the Yankees at the time) In addition to his legendary wildness and myopia, he was known to drink like a sailor on shore leave. So getting into the batters box against him wasn't exactly a treat.

 

[Safety Blitz]

I once got to watch Carlton pitched from the second row directly behind home plate. It was the most impressive thing I've ever watched live in sports. That slider was wicked.
I had a similar seat once in the old Cleveland Stadium. Goose Gossage came in to replace soft-throwing Tommy John and face "Super Joe" Charboneau. Gossage poured in three fastballs. Super Joe took the three biggest hacks I've ever seen and wiffed each time. That one at-bat was electric.
I've been fortunate enough to see some of the great ones pitch: Gibson, Koufax, Drysdale, Marichal, Seaver, Guidry, Palmer among others. I regret never seeing Ryan in person. And the time I saw Seaver pitch he got shelled.
In the current era, the game I saw King Felix pitch in Yankee Stadium a few years back was a gem.

 

[LionJim]

Maris told his Cardinal teammates before the Series that they would have more trouble with Lolich v. McLain. Turned out he was right on that one.

Roger Maris was a very good player, even after he messed up his shoulder and lost his power. A very, very fine defense player.

 

[mrtailgate]

Roger Maris was a very good player, even after he messed up his shoulder and lost his power. A very, very fine defense player.

Yes, he was. 61 was a good book. My retired friend sent me a text a year or so back asking me to guess where he was. He was at the Maris Museum in North Dakota. Was driving through and did a google search on attractions close to where he was. The Maris Museum popped up so he went.

 

[BL1975]

Saw Koufax and Drysdale pitch in a twinight double header against the Pirates in Forbes Field in the mid 60's. Due to an earlier rainout it was scheduled as a day/night doubleheader so they could get two separate paid crowds. Due to rain in the afternoon they were forced to play the twinight double header. Jim Pagliaroni hit a game winning double in the bottom of the tenth in both games to win for the Pirates..

 

[olelion]

I recently watched Ken Burns' series on Baseball and in particular the 60s and seeing how amazing Koufax was in his prime, which happened to be before my time. That must of been something to see him pitch in person and know you were most likely to witness an outstanding pitching performance.

Has any pitcher approached or inspired that type of feeling since?

Carlton in his prime? I remember the Gunner Bob Prince saying if you didn't get Carlton early, forget it.

Gibson? Seaver? Pedro? Ryan? Ryan was surely capable of a great pitching performance but it wasn't something I would state happened on a regular basis.

Guidry that one year? Arrietta? Kershaw?

I saw Koufax beat vernon Law 1-0 at Forbes

 

[MrDibbs]

Putting my memory to the test, I saw Seaver pitch (maybe his rookie season), I saw Bob Gibson, and the most memorable game was Juan Marichal late in the 65 or 66 season with the pennant on the line.

I also saw Bob Friend a lot, seemed like every Pirates game I went to he was on the mound. The guy was a horse on the mound.

 

[Fairfax Lion]

This thread started about Koufax, but has devolved into a discussion of various great pitchers and players. With that in mind I'm venturing from Koufax to Drysdale. My dad used to take me and sometimes a cousin or two from Altoona to Pittsburgh for doubleheaders at Forbes Field (always doubleheaders, because we got more for the money). I still remember the belching steel mills, but I digress. We traveled to Pittsburgh for a showdown with the Dodgers, and I got to witness the great Don Drysdale lose both ends of a doubleheader. He started the first game and we knocked him out after 2 or 3 innings and then in the second game, they bought him in in relief and we got to him again. I really didn't think that much of it at the time, because I more focused on the fact that we won both games (I wasn't even 10 years old). But looking back, I'm not sure you're going to find too many examples of a Hall of Fame pitcher losing two games in one day.

 

[NC2017]

Ryne Duren as pretty scary.

He of the Coke bottle glasses. Funny stuff

 

[Glen]

I saw Nolan Ryan pitch at a Three Rivers in one of the first games played there. It was an afternoon game. Stargell got hold of a fast ball and put it in the upper deck.

 

[PSUcup1]

What Pedro did during during the steroid era was IMO the most impressive 4-5 year stretch in pitching history

 

[Cosmos]

I recently watched Ken Burns' series on Baseball and in particular the 60s and seeing how amazing Koufax was in his prime, which happened to be before my time. That must of been something to see him pitch in person and know you were most likely to witness an outstanding pitching performance.

Has any pitcher approached or inspired that type of feeling since?

Carlton in his prime? I remember the Gunner Bob Prince saying if you didn't get Carlton early, forget it.

Gibson? Seaver? Pedro? Ryan? Ryan was surely capable of a great pitching performance but it wasn't something I would state happened on a regular basis.

Guidry that one year? Arrietta? Kershaw?

If TV counts I saw him. IMHO Bob Gibson was dominating. Not just by dusting players off like Drysdale but with his repitore.

Koufax didn't need more than two pitches, both were legendary. He had the sharpest most violent breaking ball and his fast ball exploded on top of the hitter given his delivery, arm slot, and height of the mound. It seemed like he was literally on top of the plate at the time of his release.

Who compares? Not many, that's for sure. You could argue pretty convincingly that Koufax had the best fastball and best curve in the game. The only player that scouts told me who had the best multiple pitch was Pedro. He had the best curve and best changeup in the game and when Pedro was younger, his fastball was 97. Some people threw it a tad faster but coming off the change and curve, people told me that his 97 made his fastball the most effective in the game at that time.

Others have mentioned the closest comparisons whether it be the Lefty season, etc. For sheer intimidation, many forget James Rodney Richards. For that couple year period, a lot of people took sick or wanted their off day when facing JR. Another guy who was scary for a number of reasons was Sam McDowell.

It's an apples to oranges comparison. Back in the day the 'Bow Tie' was part of the game, much more so in order to make-up for a pitcher's inadequacies. Not saying Don Drysdale was inadequate but he used the brush back liberally. This day and age pitchers can't get away with it without clearing the benches at the slightest provocation. But to your question, I am 59. I didn't see Koufax pitch in person. I saw him on TV. Same with Gibson. IMHO Bob Gibson was the total package. The nearest contemporary is Steve Carlton. He had that same combination of skill and nastiness. I've seen Nolan Ryan pitch in person. Not even close.