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Flo’s lawsuit against Willie and Rokfin

Flo grasping at straws IMO...

Saying Flosports model is similar to Rokfin because Rokfin subscription gets you access to all content creators, and Flowrestling subscription gets you access to all sports (and yet later-just now-claiming that FloWrestling has a very specific "wrestling" audience)

I believe they claimed that their "content" (not just live events) during covid helped prevent people cancelling subscriptions, thus why Willie writing articles was apparently competing with them

Could be wrong but I think they were claiming information Willie got from interviews with wrestlers and parents was considered "data" which I guess they're saying he should have "returned"?

Now getting into NLWC event talk. FiteTV, Track and Flo were all interested in the broadcast rights
 
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Saying Willie had a "list" of events Flo was working on that he wanted Rokfin to get
 
Now Rokfin seemingly asking Flo if every company ever created would be considered a competitor
 
Cross of the day so far;

Soltaro.... "Is video streaming the core of Flo's business?"

equivocating Flo employee.... "define core"

Soltaro....Where did you go to college? You don't know what core means?

equivocating Flo employee.... Houston
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Talking about "Big Board" and "Crystal Ball" rankings again...didn't they do this during the last hearing?
 
Rokfin attorney: If Flosports changed their business model to sell vacuums, would that still be the "sports video industry"

Flo guy: yes, but...


wtf?
 
I caught a few stretches today, and watched the entire video I posted yesterday, which was mostly opening arguments. Not much new from Flo, they're simply taking a hardline on the validity and rigid interpretation of the NDA. Karen read out a lot of emails and tweets from Willie, who isn't the best defendant inasmuch as he tends to say the precise things Flo is trying to prove (paraphrasing, but "of course I'm going to compete with Flo..."). Rokfin's attorney even said something to the effect that Willie talks more than he should (but that it was on-brand so perfectly fine).

Rokfin's argument is that Rokfin is a wholly different business creature than Flo, which is true in some senses and perhaps too cute by half in others. Structurally, Rokfin is merely a content-neutral platform like Patreon and Substack, a series of templates for content providers to burrow into and make things. Unlike Flo, Rokfin doesn't create content, its users do. But quite unlike Patreon and Substack, Flo is alleging that Rokfin wooed Willie away from Flo and now Willie is creating precisely the same content he created while at Flo. So I imagine the judge is somewhat hesitant to fully buy into Rokfin's argument that they're categorically distinct from Flo in a technical sense (judges have a rough time with technology, on the whole) and consequently can't, by definition, be competing with Flo, because they clearly are, in a myriad of ways.

A lot is being made about Flo's views about who they view as competition. The purpose of this is to force Flo to acknowledge that it perceives itself as competing with everyone; and if Flo is competing with everyone, the argument that their NDAs are enforceable becomes increasingly less convincing.

I heard evidence cited today that Flo was only able to come up with one cancellation that could reasonably be attributed to Willie leaving for Rokfin. Flo has spent a million dollars on legal fees over what looks like $150 in provable damages.

Evidence was also presented that Rokfin subscriptions doubled when Willie showed up. Good for Willie.

But clearly this is about something else, and Willie's defense is doing a great job of underscoring that in a few ways. First, Nomad was let go by Flo, went to Patreon, promptly wrote about wrestling, and Flo never attempted to enforce an NDA. Spey tweeted support for Nomad with respect to a particular argument. Chief Creative Officer Ray Machuca acknowledged that he never disciplined Spey, which helps Willie's defense because it furthers the idea that Flo is maintaining an arbitrary NDA enforcement policy with ex-employees. Machuca said that he'd have a discussion with Spey. Brutocao: "Will you fire him?" (lol). And then lawyer Scott Brutaocao flipped the question brilliantly--What's actually the problem with Spey acknowledging other wrestling journalists outside of Flo? And Machuca was genuinely stumped. Overall, Machuca comes off as a confused dolt and could barely hide his disinterest in being questioned.

To the judge's credit, Livingston is all over this case and doesn't let nonsense go unchecked. She's paying attention and I think that's bad for Flo. That said, IMO this case should've been chucked already on the basis that enforcement of this NDA violates public policy. I'm not familiar with every aspect of this case, so take my words with a grain of salt.
 
Tikk, Are we talking about a NDA or non-compete here with respect to Nomad? If the latter, I'm pretty sure Flo lost their ability to enforce it the moment they fired him. I see this all the time in the sales world and there's a huge difference between quitting (Willie) and being fired (Nomad).
 
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Tikk, Are we talking about a NDA or non-compete here with respect to Nomad? If the latter, I'm pretty sure Flo lost their ability to enforce it the moment they fired him. I see this all the time in the sales world and there's a huge difference between quitting (Willie) and being fired (Nomad).
That's a good point, right. My bad. They have mentioned other Flo employees who'd left, competed, and Flo sat idle. But they are hammering the point about Nomad, so I guess the purpose was merely to point out that Flo doesn't view Patreon as a competitor or they'd have disciplined Spey at the time.
 
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Does anyone know when the court will resume? I thought they were taking a brief recess, but the video never went back up. I assume these are going to be live only, correct?
 
That's a good point, right. My bad. They have mentioned other Flo employees who'd left, competed, and Flo sat idle. But they are hammering the point about Nomad, so I guess the purpose was merely to point out that Flo doesn't view Patreon as a competitor or they'd have disciplined Spey at the time.
Just to follow up on this, I looked into it and it's my understanding that Nomad actually resigned.
 
Seems unfortunate for Flo that their lawyer’s name is Karen, am I right? 😁
 
Cross of the day so far;

Soltaro.... "Is video streaming the core of Flo's business?"

equivocating Flo employee.... "define core"

Soltaro....Where did you go to college? You don't know what core means?

equivocating Flo employee.... Houston


I believe he actually said "Princeton"
 
Here's the first hour fifteen of today's hearing. I'll upload more later (or more likely tomorrow), my network is running slow.

 
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All of this tension is hard to take. A proposed solution:
1)rokfin to offer FloKaren between match job as hula hooping entertainment
2)rokfin to offer Flo guys free subscriptions so they can watch FloKaren hula hoop between matches
 
Here's the first hour fifteen of today's hearing. I'll upload more later (or more likely tomorrow), my network is running slow.

Thanks Tikk.... appreciate the insight. Man, don't know if I have the patience for that profession. Regardless, I do think this is a bad look for Flow as it makes them look petty or insecure, perhaps both. But viewing it as a subscriber makes one wonder if they should continue business with them. I hope they are monitoring our site...
 
I caught a few stretches today, and watched the entire video I posted yesterday, which was mostly opening arguments. Not much new from Flo, they're simply taking a hardline on the validity and rigid interpretation of the NDA. Karen read out a lot of emails and tweets from Willie, who isn't the best defendant inasmuch as he tends to say the precise things Flo is trying to prove (paraphrasing, but "of course I'm going to compete with Flo..."). Rokfin's attorney even said something to the effect that Willie talks more than he should (but that it was on-brand so perfectly fine).

Rokfin's argument is that Rokfin is a wholly different business creature than Flo, which is true in some senses and perhaps too cute by half in others. Structurally, Rokfin is merely a content-neutral platform like Patreon and Substack, a series of templates for content providers to burrow into and make things. Unlike Flo, Rokfin doesn't create content, its users do. But quite unlike Patreon and Substack, Flo is alleging that Rokfin wooed Willie away from Flo and now Willie is creating precisely the same content he created while at Flo. So I imagine the judge is somewhat hesitant to fully buy into Rokfin's argument that they're categorically distinct from Flo in a technical sense (judges have a rough time with technology, on the whole) and consequently can't, by definition, be competing with Flo, because they clearly are, in a myriad of ways.

A lot is being made about Flo's views about who they view as competition. The purpose of this is to force Flo to acknowledge that it perceives itself as competing with everyone; and if Flo is competing with everyone, the argument that their NDAs are enforceable becomes increasingly less convincing.

I heard evidence cited today that Flo was only able to come up with one cancellation that could reasonably be attributed to Willie leaving for Rokfin. Flo has spent a million dollars on legal fees over what looks like $150 in provable damages.

Evidence was also presented that Rokfin subscriptions doubled when Willie showed up. Good for Willie.

But clearly this is about something else, and Willie's defense is doing a great job of underscoring that in a few ways. First, Nomad was let go by Flo, went to Patreon, promptly wrote about wrestling, and Flo never attempted to enforce an NDA. Spey tweeted support for Nomad with respect to a particular argument. Chief Creative Officer Ray Machuca acknowledged that he never disciplined Spey, which helps Willie's defense because it furthers the idea that Flo is maintaining an arbitrary NDA enforcement policy with ex-employees. Machuca said that he'd have a discussion with Spey. Brutocao: "Will you fire him?" (lol). And then lawyer Scott Brutaocao flipped the question brilliantly--What's actually the problem with Spey acknowledging other wrestling journalists outside of Flo? And Machuca was genuinely stumped. Overall, Machuca comes off as a confused dolt and could barely hide his disinterest in being questioned.

To the judge's credit, Livingston is all over this case and doesn't let nonsense go unchecked. She's paying attention and I think that's bad for Flo. That said, IMO this case should've been chucked already on the basis that enforcement of this NDA violates public policy. I'm not familiar with every aspect of this case, so take my words with a grain of salt.

I know the prior hearings were different, but I think it’s interesting Martin seemed to go out of his way last time to say that streaming live events was Flo’s core business, and Rokfin’s was different. But now that events are being streamed on Rokfin (and clearly driving memberships), can’t really deny that Rokfin is a competitor. And I could even get on board with Netflix being a competitor as a streaming service. But Facebook? The NBA? Any newspaper with a sports section? As you said, Rokfin seems to be laying the groundwork for the non-compete being unenforceable.

Getting to Willie, of course the other issue for Flo IMO is he doesn’t actually work for Rokfin. But if live events are the main argument here, unless they can prove Willie had more to do with getting/producing the live events (which from what I’ve seen IMO they haven’t, other than 1 alleged phone call with Cael), I don’t see how Flo wins this, but IANAL.

Does anyone know when the court will resume? I thought they were taking a brief recess, but the video never went back up. I assume these are going to be live only, correct?

Pretty sure they said 9 AM Monday (Central Time, 10 AM Eastern). They did some “housekeeping” at the end so I think it usually just ends abruptly during that.
Seems like you can count on them going til about 5 PM Central, although they actually went a little late yesterday. Typically break around 12:00 Central for lunch with some other shorter breaks in betweenZ. Yesterday they did do a portion that was not shown on YouTube.

Just to follow up on this, I looked into it and it's my understanding that Nomad actually resigned.

They did say “the circumstances of how he left were different,” but didn’t really expand on it from what I saw. Wonder why they didn’t since that seems like it would explain the discrepancy.

Serious question: how was Karen looking today?

She had a split screen with the Flo witnesses, so was kinda hard to see. Kelly K usually looks pretty good though, just not sure why she’s in a prison or Nomad’s basement or something.
 
Thanks Tikk.... appreciate the insight. Man, don't know if I have the patience for that profession. Regardless, I do think this is a bad look for Flow as it makes them look petty or insecure, perhaps both. But viewing it as a subscriber makes one wonder if they should continue business with them. I hope they are monitoring our site...
I just canceled my subscription to Flo yesterday. Not because of the legal drama but it was one of the factors amongst many in my decision to cancel.
 
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