Does HCJF need to beat UMich
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Sure...he'll be highly respected until his next loss.to be finally respected on this board. Will it be enough?
This is, to me, the game of the year. Asking to beat tOSU was too much of an ask, IMHO. To tOSU's credit, they've really improved over the year. Perhaps if we'd have gotten them earlier. At home, I think this is a winnable game. UM should be favored but we have our opportunity. To me, the skills up and down the line are a push. The exception is at QB. UM has a two year starter JR while PSU has a first year starter as a SOPH. I also have to say that their OL and WRs are slightly better but not by a ton.to be finally respected on this board. Will it be enough?
Overall, I think UM should be favored but we'll have our chances.
to be finally respected on this board. Will it be enough?
I think many people here respect him and believe he's done a lot of good things in his tenure. I'm in that group.
But there's also a fair amount of frustration within the fan base, and it's reflected here, about not getting over the hump against the league's big-2.
I think some of the criticism is unfair, but it comes with the territory. I mean, the guy is making big bucks and has leveraged potential attempts to woo him elsewhere into lucrative contract extensions.
This Michigan game on Saturday is pretty huge. If he loses, the critics will be louder than ever and out in force, which is ironic because we'd still be looking at the possibility of yet another 11-win season with an NY6 bowl invitation.
But if we win, believe me, all his past sins, real or imaginary, will be instantly forgiven, and everyone will be lining up to sing his praises.
However, win or lose, James is not going anywhere. We're stuck with him and will just have to be content with frequent 11-win seasons and bids to the expanded 12-team playoff. This is not a bad problem to have.
I’m a critic and admit it but primarily because of the cost to retain. Good guy and he has restored the glory. My issue has always been his repeated requests for everyone to step up support and alignment and yet they crap the bed in the two big games every year. I’m good with a split. Win at home but don’t get embarrassed on the road when it appears they turtle up. Go down swinging.
I can live with that but rarely are the optics good. Saturday is an another opportunity to beat a playoff favorite in your crib and if they lay another egg, it’s on the coach, and it’s not tied to assistants pay, facilities, single dorms, location, or NIL. At some point insanity sets in and rinse and repeat doesn’t cut it anymore. Ask Georgia and Clemson.
I can live with that but rarely are the optics good. Saturday is an another opportunity to beat a playoff favorite in your crib and if they lay another egg, it’s on the coach, and it’s not tied to assistants pay, facilities, single dorms, location, or NIL. At some point insanity sets in and rinse and repeat doesn’t cut it anymore. Ask Georgia and Clemson.
If his 3 wins didn't do it, a 4th this Saturday won't either. The "10-2 ain't good enough" crowd minimally seek victories over OSU and Michigan along with a playoff birth. I'm not sure how many playoff losses are permissible.
The bar will keep going up like at any program. I'd be content this year at 11-1 without a playoff bid. A playoff bid is must next year with 12 teams including and Allar being a junior.
CJF craps the bed against the b1g 2 every year??? Prior to 2021, PSU beat scUM in 2020, 2019 and 2017.
It all is on Drew's shoulders. Great players overcome pressure. This is his chance to take a first step towards greatness. I think that he and Cephus both being named O Player of the game was not an accident.
Drew needs Dante to keep playing at a high level. We won't win with only 1 WR. Drew looked like a different player at Maryland. It seems he has found the confidence to play the game with much less caution and more abandon.
Hope you are right. I thought Allar was better against Indians actually and clearly better against Maryland. However the last thing he needs to do is think it’s all on him.
C’mon Bushy,
We all know you have a man crush on JF.
He’s 3-6 vs Michigan, 1-9 vs OSU.
You can cherry pick and say he’s 4-0 in the four games he managed to win, but that doesn’t make him successful against good competition.
We all know you have a man crush on JF.
He’s 3-6 vs Michigan, 1-9 vs OSU.
You can cherry pick and say he’s 4-0 in the four games he managed to win, but that doesn’t make him successful against good competition.
This board is exactly like Rupp Rafters when Cal loses. If UK loses a hoops game see what happens @ Rupp Rafters. Go check it out. Just like here with HCJF as long as Cal is winning it's peaceful.
Who will the Spartans & Buckeyes be pulling for @ Beaver?
You have to make them delighted this Saturday.
I agree that OSU has improved as the year has progressed but I also think they were beatable. Our offense stunk that game and it wasn't just their defense. Also, for all the credit we give our secondary Harrison had his best game of the year. Don't get me wrong they're good but they were also beatable and PSU played poorly.
I don't think UM has played anybody as good as Iowa or WVa but they've dominated in every game. McCarthy is a much better QB this year and they destroyed us last year. I think this is a much tougher opponent. But the game is at home and if we get a few turnovers we have a chance.
I so want to be wowed… wow me James. Make me eat crow. Show me how wrong I’ve been. This is the one to erase it all. Take me to playoffs James and all is forgiven as the price paid to endure the process. I’m so ready James… just push me!
With our defense, it's not all on him, but he could really help our cause by making a few big plays.
Playing devil's advocate then, are you good with losing to tOSU and scUM in perpetuity? Assuming 10-2 IS good enough every year?
Yes, there are wins against pedestrian to bad scUM teams, but absent the Grant Haley blocked FG return game, JFs record against teams with comparable talent is really really poor.
I like JF. I think he is excellent at every part of being an elite CFB coach except the actual coaching part. He wasn't perfect, but we could generally expect JVP to have his teams prepared and not lose games against inferior teams, win more than he lost against comparable teams, and upset some better teams.
Objectively speaking, he has a very poor record against comparable to better talented teams. Against inferior teams(and to his credit this has subsided in 21/22) JF gets out coached and has scares, mixed with the occasional loss.
It's fair to say that under JF, PSU wins with it's talent. The coaching doesn't seem to elevate the team to win the big games.
I know I'll get attacked for this by the homers, but this is the objective reality.
No, I'm not ok with it. I'm not going to complain about 10-2 either. It can be 7-5. Or 4-5.
The biggest factor these days is the contract. We're stuck with Franklin unless someone comes up $56 million. The time to move on was between 4-5 and 7-6 and we didn't.
Michigan hasn't played a top 25 team all year and their best win was against Rutgers. I think PSU takes them down.
I mean this is just revisionist especially over the last 10-15 or so years of his career. I'll let you decide which of those losses were to superior teams. Of the upset wins over the decade (where Penn State was ranked lower at kickoff) only 05 OSU, 06 Tenn and 07 Wisconsin were opponents who finished the season ranked...
2001- Lost to 12-0 Miami, 5-7 Wisconsin, 7-5 Iowa, 8-4 Michigan, 10-2 Illinois, 5-7 Virginia. Upset #22 Northwestern (finished 4-7 and unranked)
2002- Lost to 11-2 Iowa, 10-3 Michigan, 14-0 OSU, 9-4 Auburn. Upset #8 Nebraska (ended up 7-7 and unranked) and #19 Wisconsin (Finished 8-6 and unranked).
2003- Lost to 8-5 BC, 10-3 Nebraska, 10-3 Minnesota, 7-6 Wisconsin, 9-4 Purdue, 10-3 Iowa, 11-2 OSU, 6-7 NW, 8-5 MSU. No Upset wins
2004- Lost to 6-6 Northwestern, 8-4 OSU, 9-3 BC, 9-3 Wisconsin, 7-5 Minnesota, 7- 5 Purdue, 10-2 Iowa. No Upset Wins
2005- *Lost** to 7-5 Michigan. Upset #18 Minnesota (Finished 7-5 and unranked) and #6 OSU
2006- Lost to 10-3 Notre Dame, 12-2 OSU, 11-2 Michigan, 12-1 Wisconsin. Upset #17 Tennessee in bowl
2007- Lost to 9-4 Michigan and 11-2 OSU and 9-4 Illinois and 7-6 MSU. Upset #19 Wisconsin
2008- Lost to 9-4 Iowa and 12-1 USC. No Upset Wins (We were # 3 and beat #10 OSU)
2009- Los to 11-2 Iowa and 11-2 OSU. No Upset Wins
2010- Lost to an 8-4 Iowa, 7-6 Illinois, 12-1 OSU, 10-3 Bama, 11-2 MSU, 8-5 UF. No Upset Wins
How about Joe when he was James’ age? Was the Saban of his day. This is Franklin’s prime and he’s getting paid what 8-10x what Joe made with a fraction of the equity. I say this as a fan of both. James is the right guy for PSU but he isn’t anywhere near the coach Joe was, particularly in his prime which lasted decades. That’s ok if he can rely on his hires. I think we have an excellent shot at winning Saturday.
Respectfully, the revisionist part is only focusing on the "Dark Years" and after when JVP was depressed from the passing of his brother and far beyond his prime. Why did you not mention anything from 1966-2000?
I picked the most recent decade as they're the most directly applicable to the way the game is played today. With all due respect to the 70s, they're irrelevant. Would you like me to do 91 to 2000?
91- Lost to 3-8 USC and 12-0 Miami. No upset wins.
92- Lost to 11-1 Miami, 8-3-1 BC, 10-1-1 ND, 10-3 Stanford, 8-5 BYU. No upset wins.
93- Lost to 8-4 Michigan and 10-1-1- OSU. Upset #17 Indiana (Finished 8-4 unranked) and #6 Tennessee
94- No losses. No upset wins but beat top 5 michigan.
95- Lost to 4-5-2 Wisconsin, 11-2 OSU, 10-2 NW. Upset #12 Michigan, #18 Iowa
96- Lost to 11-1 OSU and 9-3 Iowa. Upset #7 USC (Finished 6-6 unranked) and #11 NW
97- Lost to 12-0 Michigan, 7-5 MSU, 10-2 Florida. No upset wins
98- Lost to 11-1 OSU, 10-3 Michigan, 11-1 Wisconsin. No upset wins
99- Lost to 8-4 Minnesota, 10-2 Michigan, 10-2 MSU. No upset wins but beat #4 Arizona (Finished 6-6 and unranked).
2000- Lost to 5-7 USC, 7-5 Pitt, 8-4 OSU, 6-6 Minnesota, 3-9 Iowa, 9-3 Michigan. Upset #22 Purdue.
Lost to at least one team with 3+ losses every season except 94. If the last ten years under Franklin looked like this I don't think you'd say generally he's getting the job done.
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You are spot on. JF is essentially incapable of winning a game where the talent is equal or if the other team is better. Certainly not expecting him to win all of them but wow he is abysmal. And the sad thing is he just finds ways to lose....totally outplayed and outcoached from the get go, one side of the ball plays well but the other does not show up, collapse late in the 4th, a bad decision gives the other team momentum.
If we win Saturday my assessment of the season will flip from a disappointment to a success even if no playoff. If we lose, well another disappoing year of not winning any of our biggest games.
If you are going to say the 70's and 80's are irrelevant then the whole debate is irrelevant. You cannot look at post 2000, Paterno was old and held the university captive. So it is useless to argue this back and forth if you say Joes's greatness from 1966-1994 is apples to JFs oranges from say 2016 to present.
Are we allowed to point out all the underachieving 3 loss seasons or worse than 3 loss seasons?
A lot of that happened between 86 and 94
Captive or not Joe averaged just under 10 wins and won 2 BiG titles in his last 7 yrs.
being a good football is not irrelevant based on the year. Either you prepare your team better and coach a game better than your opponent, or you don't. JVP was not outcoached by his contemporaries for ~30 years.
We cannot say the same for the first 10 years of the JF era.
Again, I like JF. I love JVP for everything he did,(2 nattys, 4? undefeated seasons, success with honor) but I'm not blind. He should have departed a decade earlier than he did.
Whatever you think of my assessment of JVP, I notice that you did not attack my assessment of JF. You objectively cannot say that his coaching has elevated the play of the level of talent that PSU puts on the field. It's a shame, but it's true.
For me, no! Winner 4-15 against OSU & UM with a 5 game losing streak, isn't respectable. If he can go .500 over the next 2-3 year then it's a different story. So far I haven't seen he's capable of doing that.to be finally respected on this board. Will it be enough?
Gave you the 90s. You wouldn't find them acceptable today. Lost to at least one team worse than recent editions of OSU/UM every season except 94. Disappointing decade outside of that season for you?
As an OSU fan, I've appreciated the fact that despite being under tremendous pressure to beat OSU Franklin never resorted to unethical and rules breaking practices like Harbaugh did in desperation. A low bar to be sure, but something that Harbaugh couldn't clear.
And here are the 80s. Generally he dropped a game or two that were to less than elite teams, you just don't recognize it through the shine given off by the two national titles and the 30+ years that have gone by.
80- Lost to 10-2 Neb, 11-1 Pitt. Upset #9 Mizzou (Finished 8-4 unranked)
81- Lost to 9-2 Miami, 9-2-1 Alabama. Upset #1 Pitt
82- Lost to 8-4 Alabama. Upset #1 UGA. Natty Champs
83- Lost to 12-1 Nebraska, 4-6 Cinci, 9-3 Iowa, 9-3 BC. Tied 8-3 Pitt. Upset #4 WVU and #3 Bama
84- Lost to 7-4-1 Texas, 5-6 Bama, 8-4 WVU, 7-5 ND, 3-7-1 Pitt. Upset #5 Iowa #9 BC.
85- Lost to OU in national championship. Upset #7 Maryland.
86- Upset #2 Bama and #1 Miami. Natty Champs
87- Lost to 7-5 Bama, 11-0-1 Cuse, 8-4 Pitt, 10-2 Clemson. Upset #7 ND.
88- Lost to 5-6 Rutgers, 10-2 Cuse, 9-3 Bama, 11-1 WVU, 6-5 Pitt, 12-0 ND. No Upset wins.
89- Lost to 10-3 UVA, 10-2 Bama, 12-1 ND. Tied 3-7-1 Maryland. Upset #13 WVU #19 Pitt
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Two national titles in the decade with one being when a prohibitive underdog with significantly less talent. And he played for a third. That's all you need to know. Did I miss the two titles JF has brought to Happy Valley?
Is it all I need to know?
That doesn't mean he didn't lose to inferior teams, cuz he did in quite a few seasons. Which is the comment I was responding to. They're not mutually exclusive.
Thanks for proving my point. The shine from 2 national titles covers for losses in other seasons to 5-6 rutgers, 6-5 pitt 4-6 cinci, etc. No one needs to know about those, just 82 and 86.
Just my opinion, but if Penn State plays well enough in future years to often make the field of the expanded CFP, there will be less talk of replacing Franklin.
And being one of the 12 best teams is certainly a realistic possibility, a level which has been reached several times over the last 7 seasons.
And being one of the 12 best teams is certainly a realistic possibility, a level which has been reached several times over the last 7 seasons.
Who cares. If we won the NC in 2016 and 2017 would we be complaining about losing to OSU since or Michigan in 21 and 22? I guess a little. Joe wasn't perfect but my God he could win a few big games. Franklin seemingly never wins a big game vs an opponent with equal or better talent. He also seems to bumble away close games.
Yes '87-'89 were not good but that was preceded by a couple championships so I guess we are more forgiving when he then lost a few he should not have. Yes, if that is the point you want to make. And we would be more forgiving of JF if he ever pulled off big wins.
Not if he never can advance to at least the final 4 and actually win it all say once in the next 10 years.
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