Agreed. There is a bigger gap between Pfarr and the 3rd place finisher than there is between Cox and Pfarr. Pfarr was outstanding last year.
Any results from todays wrestle offs?
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I would still like to hear a good reason Bo shouldn't go at 97 this year, mm or shak at 84 and Mark at 74. I thought we wanted to dominate. SMH( i had to look that one up)
Agreed, and yet Cox pinned Pfarr, so what does that say about the gap below #2?
I think Bo in particular would have a really tough time working his bread and butter upper body stuff against 197 lbers, because he'd be ceding leverage by ceding all those pounds. Having and not-having leverage on throws is the difference between pinning and getting pinned. Not saying he couldn't win there but he'd hardly be cutting to get there and the guys he'd be facing would just be a lot bigger. Even in a weak class he'd find bonus points tougher to come by than at 184.
Agreed on Hall, but if you watched Bo wrestle 194 with day before weigh-ins, you might see how that type of size can be hard to overcome. Steinhaus demolished him. Bo thinks he can beat Dean. Im not sure he thinks he can beat Cox.
maybe he should not rely on being one-dimensional(upper body- thrower). Might do him some good to lose a few matches. Newsflash, I don't see him throwing dean around much either. By nat's with some scraps I see him 2-5 at 197 same at 84. A more rounded wrestler, imo
If he didn't have DT's frame and wasn't able to put on the mass I would probably agree.
He's not. He uses a variety of shots as well, including but not limited to sweep singles, ankle picks, and the same cross ankle/knee pick off an underhook than won Quentin Wright the 197 lb national title.
But the point still stands: he is much more effective when he can use upper body moves either for a takedown or as a setup or at least a threat. That's who he is and will always be.
To use Q as the precedent -- similar style at the same weights -- Q's stuff worked extremely well at 184 because he outquicked the competition. He outquicked the competition again at 197 to be an undefeated national champ, but with a lot less bonus due to a physically stronger guys who largely blocked and slowed down matches. (And somewhat less leverage due to taller/longer wrestlers.)
That was as a full-blown 197. Bo is not a full-blown 197 this year. He would have a quickness edge over everyone except possibly Cox, but would have a strength deficit against the entire field and would need to learn to overcome the blocking. Bonus would be harder to come by.
It is one thing to gain 23 pounds of muscle in 9 months. It is another thing to do so and still be able to wrestle at a NC level with a new body type and against guys with different capabilities than you are used to wrestling.
No reason to cuss. Cutch is a darn good wrestler barring injury. Natural weight for him is 84. Bo's with his man mass frame is 97. He is going to have problems with a few of guys at 84 or 97. Dudley, dean etc. He is wise to be afraid of cox
There are NEVER going to be more than 10 weight classes in college wrestling. Currently there are only eight weight classes for the World Championships and just six in the Olympics. I don't ever see an expansion of college weights.
Good points. Which would get us more points at the tournaments? Btw, didn't Q wrestle up a weight? He seemed small for 97.
If I understood the discussion the other day, Bo didn't certify at 174 and therefore won't be able to drop down in an emergency.
The best possible version of the Penn State line up probably would have had Bo at 174, although that ship has sailed. It's just a weaker weight. Probably, given what we know about Cassar, both in terms of injuries and folkstyle results, I think the best line up would have been:
125: Suriano
133: Cortez
141: Gulibon
149: Zain
157: Nolf
165: Joseph
174: Bo
184: Rasheed
197: McCutcheon
HW: Nevills
Flipping Rasheed and Bo obviously may end up no difference at all, but I just think Bo is a more likely champ at 174, whereas I don't think Rasheed is a champ at either weight, nor even lock to AA. Champs are more valuable and bonus points are more valuable, and I think Bo would have had a better shot at both at 174.
125: Suriano
133: Cortez
141: Gulibon
149: Zain
157: Nolf
165: Joseph
174: Bo
184: Rasheed
197: McCutcheon
HW: Nevills
Flipping Rasheed and Bo obviously may end up no difference at all, but I just think Bo is a more likely champ at 174, whereas I don't think Rasheed is a champ at either weight, nor even lock to AA. Champs are more valuable and bonus points are more valuable, and I think Bo would have had a better shot at both at 174.
Yeah, I didn't touch on that because it feels like they've been pretty clear they're not using Hall this year.
No. He and Ruth both moved up that year. IIRC he was around 210 in the offseason, not a huge cut to 197 but a comfortable weight. He was one of the tallest guys at his weight and had huge legs, so his upper body may have seemed smaller than, say, Kilgore.
What result would score most points at tournaments? Probably at 184. His floor is probably similar at each weight, but his ceiling is higher at 184 (not likely to beat Cox while undersized), and bonus points would be easier at 184. It's a close enough call that you'd send him out where he feels most comfortable, and that's probably 184.
Style wise, I actually think an undersized Mouse has an easier transition to 197 than an undersized Bo. That's not to say he'd finish higher -- Bo is a better wrestler, taller, longer, more athletic. Just that he'll be OK there, and Bo-Mouse might outscore Mouse-Bo at nationals.
1. The reason Bo is not going to wrestle 197 is because he is an 184 pounder. Not that freaking hard to understand.
The argument that the team would be better with Bo at 97 and Matt at 84, seems silly. Bo at 84 is title threat. Bo at 97 due to lack of size and necessary strength s at best, hopefully mid range AA. While Matt has some high quality victories. 2 times through the tournament he has not yet AAed. He is very ripped this year, but can the back hold up? Can he compete an entire season injury free?
They are not going to bend over backwards attempting to create a false need for anybody. If the staff ends up believing 174 Rasheed/Morelli, 184 Bo, 197 McCutcheon/Stout/Cassar is not solid enough to deliver a team championship the fix will be Hall at 74 not Bo to 97.
2. When Quentin wrestled 197 he had himself built up to 215 and was plenty strong enough to win with throws, or under hook singles/highcrotches, or mat skills. There was nothing undersized about him at all.
The argument that the team would be better with Bo at 97 and Matt at 84, seems silly. Bo at 84 is title threat. Bo at 97 due to lack of size and necessary strength s at best, hopefully mid range AA. While Matt has some high quality victories. 2 times through the tournament he has not yet AAed. He is very ripped this year, but can the back hold up? Can he compete an entire season injury free?
They are not going to bend over backwards attempting to create a false need for anybody. If the staff ends up believing 174 Rasheed/Morelli, 184 Bo, 197 McCutcheon/Stout/Cassar is not solid enough to deliver a team championship the fix will be Hall at 74 not Bo to 97.
2. When Quentin wrestled 197 he had himself built up to 215 and was plenty strong enough to win with throws, or under hook singles/highcrotches, or mat skills. There was nothing undersized about him at all.
My gut tells me to have have hall man 74-heck with the shirt, likely finalist. Matt or shakur to decide 84. I don't see bo higher than 3-4 anyway. Bo 97, take some lumps and be better for it. wasn't morgan a smaller 197(quintin was probably a bad example). do you think matt will be less prone to injury at 97? BTW, nate jackson just declared 184 also..
we will see come big 10's huh
p.s. I understand just fine and all this is just conjecture anyway, right?
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So now that 184 is settled I'd be curious to see how Cutch does against Stout. I still think 174 is wide open and if Rasheed gets his confidence/ offensive aggression back he can take Morelli although no guarantee.
Thanks for clarifying. Re-reading my comment, it could be inferred that Q was undersized. He wasn't. He moved to a weight class with stronger wrestlers (in the sense that 197s are stronger than 184s), and was strong enough to win the national title over a gorilla who tried to muscle him up.
You're 1 year early on Hall and possibly longer on Bo.
Yes, Morgan was undersized earlier in his career. He finished 1-2 at nationals as a FR, and 7th as a SO.
I have read this board for a little while now, first time posting. I have been an enormous PSU fan all my life, mostly football, but keep an eye on other sports. I am a firm believer that there is nothing more impressive in all of sport than a complete, dominant wrestler. That being said I think that the aspirations and comfort of an athlete cannot be forgotten. This team is so good and so deep that if any certain wrestler wants to change weights because it is best for him than so be it. the program will be fine. all these guys have been through it before, and the reason they chose to wrestle for PSU is to wrestle with the best
Man we NEED HALL at 174 BIG TIME,,,,,He would have a great shot at winning it !!!! There is NO WAY i would keep him out...He can get A LOT of bonus points too...Be beats Nolf in the room at times..Bo too...
Bo won 7 to 0..My buddy watch the matches...Geno does not score enough points...WE NEED HALL !!!!Heck he beats Bo at times in the room when they are going hard...Young man could win it all this year and score many many bonus points....
We really have suffered over the years without Gwiazdowski, Snyder, Marsteller, Jordan, Kindig, Port, Schopp, Myers, Campolattano, Sasquatch, Rogers, Grey, Black, Wiercioch, Racciato, Sebastian, the Peppelmans, the Valencia twins, etc., in the lineup.
So many bonus points. Tremendous bonus points. No one scores bonus points more than he. Believe me.
Wonderful bonus points. We'll have the best bonus points ever. It'll be beautiful. Huge. Huge.
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I saw a tshirt in China that said: "Cael Sanderson Number 1 teacher of Bonus Points, Top Coach of Best America Wrestling Style"
This thread is a real bonus for wrestling fans everywhere. Now if we can only get Spyker off the football board to give us some intel!
I'd assume the redshirt is because Cael wants to give Mark the best chance to win multiple national championships, and/or he wants one less year of overlap with the N triplets. If there is a good chance that Mark can beat Bojo , it would be very tempting to pull his shirt. I know many of us would love to see him this year, myself included. But I think if the team stays healthy, I like our chances with our without him.
In game 7 of the World Series, color guy, John Smoltz said the manager should never make a decision that makes their opponents happy, when Maddon pulled Hendricks. I know Wrestling isn't baseball, but the comment made me think of Hall redshirting, and our competition all hoping he shirts. I trust Cael to make the right decision for Mark and the team. His results certainly speak for themselves.
Cael and Hall figured all of this out before Hall committed. Both of them have bigger goals.
I like Smoltz, but that's an idiotic thing to say. Coaches make decisions that they think are best for their own team. Besides, how do you know what will make the other team happy or unhappy? Some guys thrive on the competition.
i know Buckeye fans think Bojo hung the moon, but if he can't touch his cousin's legs much, good luck with Mark Hall. Hall would ride the snot out of him too
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