when do we think that the NCAA will complete this and issue the sanctions? clearly these issues are well in the scope of the NCAA, versus what they did to PSU, which was not in their scope. this has gone fairly long, and I do not recall an NCAA investigation that went this long before. this does not seem to be impacting their recruiting - which you would think everyone would be negative recruiting against them.
UNC sanctions
- Thread starter blion72
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I, honestly, doubt there are any sanctions. When the NCAA hit Penn State it was their attempt to have power and teeth to their organization again. Ironically, when it blew up in their face it seriously deflated what little power was left. Pretty much anybody in the P5 is probably beyond the NCAAs enforcement of anything. Within 10 years, the P5 may not even be under the NCAA umbrella.
IF Bethel contends this is NOT an athletics issue - and I'm saying "IF", I don't want to put words in his mouth - then Bethel is a moron (it certainly IS an academic issue, but those two things are ANYTHING BUT mutually exclusive
)Again, I'm not saying whether that is or is not his contention - - - I've never spoken with him
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Well, the matter certainly had an academic dimension to it, given that the scandal involves, among other things, academic credit being given for "no-show" classes in UNC's Department of Afro-American Studies.
But the fact that so many UNC athletes took those classes and received credit for them makes it, by definition, an athletics issue as well. If UNC does not get absolutely hammered for this, the NCAA might as well fold up its tent.
the problem is there's really only specious proof that the athletic department KNEW these classes were fraudulent (rather than just "easy")
IF Bethel contends this is NOT an athletics issue - and I'm saying "IF", I don't want to put words in his mouth - then Bethel is a moron (it certainly IS an academic issue, but those two things are ANYTHING BUT mutually exclusive
Again, I'm not saying whether that is or is not his contention - - - I've never spoken with him
read his blog: LINK
or watch the documentary Unverified
THEY. HAD. TO. KNOW.
Or are you saying the professors were grooming students?
I would respond with an apt comparison to PSU, but apparently I trample a gaggle of bunnies every time I do that
Oh, c'mon now. All you're saying is that there's no paper trail.
If you consider this to be the last word on the issue, at least ask yourself why you do so.
well the same could be said for Paterno et al, right?
there are 7 murky emails. it was enough for Freeh to convince the world that they were all guilty of a cover up because . . . well they HAVE to be guilty, right?
I don't consider Bethel to be the last word.
I don't consider Ziegler or Blehar to be the last word or 100% correct in all their assumptions.
I DO consider that Bethel has made some compelling arguments that undermine the "accepted" narrative.
Go listen to what the players say. It's easy to find this online.
I've listened to different interviews from different players.
they make conflicting claims.
No. Look at the players. Look at their majors. Listen to what the players have to say. Why are what the players are saying being discounted?
Don't use the PSU case to attempt to exonerate UNC. What they did was exploitation, pure and simple. Why can't you at least acknowledge that? You seem to be more interested in seeing UNC get off than to admit the obvious, that UNC didn't give a crap about their athlete's education.
Correct me if I am wrong, but these were student-athletes who took these paper courses? Ignorance is no excuse of the law, thus they should receive sanctions.
That being said, UNC handled the NCAA far better than we did, kicking back and saying "Don't use a report to levy sanctions as it was not intended to find NCCA infractions." Even though I disagree with the notion that UNC Athletics is innocent, Universities have to have a backbone and not let Emperor Emmert run the show.
you're conflating 2 separate issues. and reading more in to what the players have said. they were directed to these classes because they were "easy". that isn't in contention.
the bottom line is if the athletic department was aware of the fraud within that major. so far there has been no smoking gun.
I'm interested in the truth. and not falling for media driven narratives. you don't find it even semi-ironic that you're basically buying a story told by Sara Ganim?
it appears that there was fraud at the department level (funny how everyone is making this an athletic/NCAA issue). not sure if the "ignorance is no excuse" reasoning applies. may in fact be what keeps UNC from seeing major sanctions.
these aren't crimes that were committed, being adjudicated in a court of law. intent and knowledge of fraud are very clear aspects of issuing sanctions
I'm basing my assessment on the Wainstein report. How is that media driven? You, you're basing yours on Bethel.
This is from the Wainstein report, on Butch Davis: "In terms of knowing how the AFAM paper classes worked, he (Davis) certainly knew by the time of the November 2009 presentation from Beth Bridger that football players in these courses “didn’t go to class… didn’t take notes… didn’t have to meet with professors… [and] didn’t have to pay attention or necessarily engage with the material.”
Bethel = not the media
Wainstein = hired to place blame on certain people and deflect blame from others (a la Freeh)
I'm sure you'd agree that Wainstein's "reasonable conclusions" are on par with Freeh. Davis has refuted this characterization of his knowledge.
I've posted this every time this topic comes up ... UNC student population is less than 2 percent scholarship athletes (student-athletes) while attendance in these bogus classes was around 50 percent student-athletes. How does this NOT make it an athletic issue?
if your position is based solely on Wainstein, Ganim's reporting, and condescending sarcasm . . . you might want to back away
this was an African American Studies class, so what percentage of the student population is AA? what percentage of athletes?
I've never read Gamin's reporting. I said I based my conclusions on Wainstein and you keep throwing out these red herrings. You're just deciding not to see what's there. You're ignoring what the players have been saying but when Butch Davis denies something, you take his word? Someone said that 10 of the 15 players on the UNC BB team were in the AAS major and the coaches didn't think that something was fishy? At best, UNC coaches closed their eyes and didn't look for anything. Yeah, maybe you're right that it doesn't rise to the level of an NCAA violation but if it doesn't, then nothing does, other than blatant grade changing. We all know that this kind of academic BS happens all around us but when it comes to the UNC case, nothing's going to be done. If it's not going to happen in this case it's never going to happen anywhere and we wring our hands about it. Not once have you said that what UNC did to their players was disgusting; can we at least agree that this is indeed the case?
The fraud could have been on the janitorial level for all I care. It happened and it benefited student athletes.
One of the NCAA's responsibilities is for ensuring that student-athletes meet a certain standard to be allowed to compete, i.e. minimum GPAs etc.. If a department is responsible for paper classes and athletes took part, the school is still responsible and because it affected athletes GPA, the NCAA should enforce sanctions on UNC.
Vacate wins for teams that had these paper courses boost/help students reach GPA requirements.
I think monetary punishments speak far more to universities to ensure that "department mistakes" don't occur ever again. 10% of TV revenue for 3 years with those proceeds going to some program within NC to help high school students education.
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